Given all the melt down about the Burke (as of yet, no decision), I thought this article was appropriate. Interesting view from the other side.
This list is completely arbitrary and not a genuine analysis of the relative merits of state fossils.
OT - Mark Cuban thinks NBA should have 3 year rule
April 5th, 2012 at 2:29 PM
#1
OT - Mark Cuban thinks NBA should have 3 year rule
April 5th, 2012 at 2:31 PM | 
This would be great
This would be great
April 5th, 2012 at 2:39 PM |
Poor Kids
Poor Kids
I feel so bad that they won't get a degree from a prestigious university...poor kids indeed.
April 5th, 2012 at 2:48 PM |
They wouldn't get the degree
They wouldn't get the degree
They wouldn't get the degree because they'd leave after three years or it'd be in something utterly useless. Do you think the kid that wants to play in the NBA or NFL is going to put a lot of time and effort into that sports comm or kines degree? Maybe a few sure but the vast majority won't care. If they're physically ready to play, why force them to be in school? This whole "they should be happy with what they get" argument is bullshit to me. Who are we to decide what's better for them? A diploma doesn't pay your bills or keep food on your table, money does. These kids aren't going to be doctors and engineers for the most part, why take away their ability to make money?
April 5th, 2012 at 2:53 PM |
A diploma doesn't pay your bills or keep food on your table
A diploma doesn't pay your bills or keep food on your table
So the next time people around here are making fun of a degree from MSU or OSU instead of one from Michigan, I assume you won't be joining them. After all, a diploma doesn't pay your bills or keep food on your table.
April 5th, 2012 at 3:03 PM |
If you are going to be a doctor
If you are going to be a doctor
it matters a great deal where you got your degree from. If you are going to be a professional basketball player, it doesn't.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.
April 5th, 2012 at 3:52 PM |
As a doctor I assure you this
As a doctor I assure you this
As a doctor I assure you this is not the case. Med schools mostly care about your MCAT and residencies mostly care about your STEP 1. Most patients don't give a shit where you studied.
Now if you want to be a lawyer or a professor.... Then it matters a lot.
April 5th, 2012 at 4:51 PM |
I must be extraordinary
I must be extraordinary
Personally, I always check to see what schools my physicians attended. Its one of the first things I look at. For example, I'd see a Buckeye for a sore throat, but they sure as hell aren't going to be practicing any kind of internal medicine on me.
P.S. You're right about the law school mattering in getting a job.
Disgruntled former moderator. I got a lot of problems with you people!
April 5th, 2012 at 8:55 PM |
You do know
You do know
That pharyngitis and viral URTIs are handled by internal medicine docs (and FP and CNPs)? My preceptor at residents clinic went to Michigan for undergrad, OSU for residency ( a very common arrangement). Would you see someone who has attended both? Just curious
I have imagined great victories, and I have imagined great races. The races are better.
April 5th, 2012 at 3:15 PM |
What? My point is that a
What? My point is that a
What? My point is that a diploma by itself isn't going to get you a job or put money in your bank account when you have little no marketable skills, no work experience, no interview skills, etc I don't think it's right for us to decide or say "this is better for them so be happy with it".
April 5th, 2012 at 3:33 PM |
Interesting, you seem to
Interesting, you seem to
Interesting, you seem to argue against yourself in this comment. The development a student gets during those three years on campus are the very things which would make a person more likely to be able to present themselves well.
This is the part of college I don't think most people get. It is not all just about the academic education. There is a life development education going on at the same time. You can argue that maturation process could also take place while they are working, but it does not.
I have heard many early NBA entry players say the hardest part was having to suddenly be a grown-up at such an early age.
As my Dad told me when he dropped me off at college: "You will never have another 4 years (and it will only be 4 years) like this again. You are not under my roof, but you are not thrown out to the wolves. Enjoy it."
"Anyone who isn't confused, really doesn't understand the situation." - Edward R. Murrow
April 5th, 2012 at 3:55 PM |
I agree with trueblue
I agree with trueblue
I agree with the above poster and would like to add that the discussion has overlooked the community aspect of being around other students who are eager to learn.
Thanks Thorin/Mgovideo for avatar
April 5th, 2012 at 4:12 PM |
You're assuming that they'll
You're assuming that they'll
You're assuming that they'll take that development seriously. It can happen sure.
April 5th, 2012 at 4:51 PM |
That is the primary point. As
That is the primary point. As
That is the primary point. As people grow and mature, more times than not, they start to take things more seriously.
"Anyone who isn't confused, really doesn't understand the situation." - Edward R. Murrow
April 5th, 2012 at 2:49 PM |
They don't have to go to
They don't have to go to
They don't have to go to college. There are professional basketball opportunities besides the NBA.
April 5th, 2012 at 2:52 PM |
Did you read the article?
Did you read the article?
Did you read the article? Cuban proposed that the poor kids can go to FIBA (and make alot of money doing it) or even the D league.
April 5th, 2012 at 3:44 PM |
Why is this a problem?
Why is this a problem?
Every employer in the world has a set of criteria that they believe is necessary for hiring a successful employee. We may not like it or agree but it's their right to do so. I'm positive that my last year or two at Michigan didn't make me any better of an employee when I got my first job at an advertising agency, and I'm sure I could have done just as well, in fact made quicker progress and more money, if I was hired after sohomore year. But that option wasn't available. If the NBA did the same, IMO no one should have the right to block or challenge it.
"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite."
April 5th, 2012 at 3:48 PM |
I'm not an employment lawyer, but...
I'm not an employment lawyer, but...
The problem is that you have 30-whatever employers (the teams) all collectively agreeing to discriminate against a class of people.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 5:12 PM |
The NBA can't unilaterally
The NBA can't unilaterally
The NBA can't unilaterally impose such an age restriction, it would be subject to collective bargaining with the player's union.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:23 PM |
Actually you can, if the
Actually you can, if the
Actually you can, if the players' union agrees to it. Remember the NFL court case a few years back?
April 5th, 2012 at 5:32 PM |
yeah
yeah
At the risk of being political, I still think it's constitutionally dubious. I know that the Supreme Court rejected hearing Clarett's appeal, but I think the NFL rule could potentially be successfully attacked at another time. The NFL also relied on the argument that players aren't physically ready for pro football until they're two (three?) years out of high school. The NBA can't argue that.
There is also just the principle that we as a society don't (or shouldn't) restrict people's employment opportunities without a good reason. The fact that NBA owners can't stop themselves from drafting 18 year olds is not a good reason.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 5:46 PM |
People's job opportunities
People's job opportunities
People's job opportunities are restricted by all kinds of things, from degrees, to experience, to age. So are people's voting rights, driving rights, marriage rights, etc. I don't see why the NBA can't set whatever requirements they want.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:59 PM |
Because...
Because...
You can't set arbitrary limits on what kinds of people can enter professions. We'd all agree that the NBA can't say that it won't draft Latinos, for example. The "one-and-done" rule doesn't carry the sting of something like racism with it, but that's not the point. The point is that they're telling people who are perfectly capable of playing at an NBA level that they can't play b/c they fall into a given category that has nothing inherently to do with being a good basketball player.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:18 PM |
Wouldn't this also apply to
Wouldn't this also apply to
Wouldn't this also apply to baseball, with its restriction on players going pro for 3 years if they don't do so after high school? I feel like that would be even harder to justify on a constitutional basis (although I personally like the rule). I'm not a legal scholar, but it seems like there is some precedent for minimum age requirements in employment (at least in some sectors) whereas maximum age limits are universally condemned.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:19 PM |
Probably
Probably
Professional sports have been allowed to live in their own weird little world as far as anti-trust laws and such (look up Casey Stengel's testimony before Congress if you want to see something funny), but I question (FWIW) how long that will last. Players and potential players have so much money at stake now that I could see someone making a very concerted effort to change the status quos.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:31 PM |
One thing that works in the
One thing that works in the
One thing that works in the NBA's favor is the proliferation of basketball leagues worldwide. The European leagues probably love the age restriction, since it keeps their guys around at least to age 19. China might eventually become more of a destination league as well. Players can make a lot of money playing pro basketball outside of the NBA, though they may have to leave the country.
Football is in a trickier position IMO, given that the only real alternative is the CFL. Someone might be compelled to file suit again.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:40 PM |
A good point
A good point
The issue - like any other, I suppose - is heavily framed by how much in resources people are willing to put into the fight. This issue has never really been fought out with equal resources and vigor on both sides, which is one of the reasons that I think the law could be changed if someone had enough money...But, as I said above, I am not an employment lawyer, and my thoughts should be taken no more seriously than a chimp's.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:23 PM |
An NBA agreement to not draft
An NBA agreement to not draft
An NBA agreement to not draft Latinos would fail because race and national origins receives strict scrutiny under the equal protection clause. Because this rule is about eligibility based on age, it just requires the NBA/NBAPA to have a rational basis for the rule.
And while that rational basis might seem questionable because the NBA has previously had successful players who have been drafted immediately out of high school, it's rule is actually more rock solid, legally, than the NFL's because the NBA's rule was the specific result of collective bargaining while the NFL's three year rule was merely a rule created within a collectively bargained agreement (ie, it was imposed by the owners, not bargained, but took shape within a labor market organized around a collective bargaining relationship, and was therefore not subject to anti-trust rulings).
There's a long smart football post about this in relation to the Clarett case, that also has to do with Sonia Sotomayor's jursiprudence related to sports.
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/05/judge-sotomayor-and-football.html
April 5th, 2012 at 6:34 PM |
I understand how weak the "rational basis" test is
I understand how weak the "rational basis" test is
But it's not even rational. 18 year old Kevin Garnett (or Anthony Davis) isn't/aren't better than 21 year old Dallas Lauderdale? That's laughable...I know that the NBA's rule is consistent with what the law is right at this minute, but I don't know that it would stand if you got it in front of a judge of a...different...belief system, one inclined to put just a bit of teeth into "rational."
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:40 PM |
Rational vs. making sense.
Rational vs. making sense.
"Rational" has been very broadly defined by the courts. In Kotch v. Board of River Commissioners, the Supreme Court upheld a law that functionally prohibited anyone but friends and relatives of river boat captains from receiving a pilot's liscense in Louisiana because it promoted "moral and esprit de corps" on the river.
The current language governing legal review of restrictions holds that the parties merely have to show that "there is any conceivable state of facts that could provide a rational basis for the classification."
I actually agree with your point morally, but legally, the NBA and the NBAPA can pretty much impose any restrictions they want that don't fall under strict scrutiny.
Edit: argh, your edit makes it look like I'm just being pedantic.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:44 PM |
You pendantic bastard!
You pendantic bastard!
I'm kidding. Your point is well made, and I hear you.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:38 PM |
Suppose David Stern could
Suppose David Stern could
Suppose David Stern could crunch the numbers and find that players aged 21 and up average X points and Y rebounds per game, whereas players under that age average fewer . . . would that constitute a "rational basis" for an age limit?
April 5th, 2012 at 6:46 PM |
Potentially
Potentially
As Needs said above, it's a very weak test. It's sort of a fuzzy one, though, as well, and a federal judge who was motivated could say, "Well, that may be true of the average player, but what about the exceptional one?" What I would say as Kevin-Garnett-like-guy's lawyer is, "Why can't my client be judged individually just like the player who's been out of school for a year? I'm not asking anyone to draft him if he's not good."
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 7:21 PM |
IIRC, when this issue first
IIRC, when this issue first
IIRC, when this issue first came about there was some number crunching. Michael Mccann of the Mississippi College School of Law stated that their study found players out of high school not only succeeded more often than their college counter parts, but elite players who bypass college make something like 100 million more dollars over the course of their careers than their college counterparts.
This makes sense, because they have longer careers, are able to get through their rookie deals faster, and have the potential sign two big long term deals, as opposed to just one.
So not only are you arbitrarily restricting them from entering the NBA, but you're killing their earning potential as well.
HOKEAMANIA RUNNIN' WILD
Formerly, TheLastProphet
April 5th, 2012 at 8:03 PM |
But the issue wouldn't so
But the issue wouldn't so
But the issue wouldn't so much be the longitudinal trajectory of players who entered the league at 18-20 years old, but how they do specifically when they're 18-20 years old. Several of the best HS-to-NBA players (Kobe, Garnett, McGrady) did in fact struggle as rookies and sometimes as second-year players. When they were older they became better players. Now, to argue that this was solely due to chronological age is a stretch, but the league could potentially make it.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:46 PM |
I would imagine that an
I would imagine that an
I would imagine that an argument claiming that an age restriction would result in an improved level of play, therefore making the NBA more competitive and enjoyable for fans would pass judicial review, especially since that new age restriction would almost certainly have to be collectively bargained (given that the current one is).
If the owners tried to impose a new age restriction, then the NBAPA would almost certainly challenge it as a contract violation.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:50 PM |
And I should really say...
And I should really say...
The conservative (I don't mean that politically) observer would wager that it would pass. I'm just saying that I think there's a crack in the facade that you might be able to squeeze through. But no one should file a lawsuit just because I said that.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 3:50 PM |
Because there's something wrong
Because there's something wrong
with a bunch of rich mostly-white men telling a group of largely-poor, largely-minority teenagers that they can't make money that they would unquestionably receive otherwise simply because it makes the lives of the rich white men easier.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:26 PM |
What if the
What if the
What if the largely-"minority" NBA Players Union agrees to it? Does that make it better?
(BTW, why is "minority" used in sports as a code word for black? Asians, Native Americans et al. don't ever seem to count as "minority" athletes.)
April 5th, 2012 at 5:41 PM |
The players union represents existing players
The players union represents existing players
and does not necessarily have the interests of high school kids at heart.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:59 PM |
I agree - but why didn't you
I agree - but why didn't you
I agree - but why didn't you mention that in the first place, instead of going for a race-baiting angle ("rich white men")? The rich white men can't get any rule changes approved without the "minority" NBPA's approval.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:11 PM |
If it's race baiting
If it's race baiting
to say that the policy would result in the transfer of money from poor black and latino kids to rich white old men, I'm fine race baiting. One of the biggest positives about big-time athletics is that it takes a number of very poor minority kids out of very bad areas and gives them either a college education or, if they're good enough, millions and millions of dollars. I didn't accuse anyone of racism, and do not think the policy is designed to keep black or hispanic kids impoverished. But the result of the policy is to keep more money in Donald Sterling's pocket and keep it out of Anthony Davis's for 2 more years. I don't see how that's good for anyone but Donald Sterling.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:41 PM |
Because they by and large
Because they by and large
Because they by and large don't play professional sports?
April 5th, 2012 at 5:54 PM |
Again, then, why not just
Again, then, why not just
Again, then, why not just call the league "predominantly black" instead of "predominantly minority"? Why the misleading language?
April 5th, 2012 at 5:58 PM |
This is not a rhetorical question:
This is not a rhetorical question:
Why do you care? "Minority" isn't a pejorative term. It wasn't as specific as it could have been, I grant.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:03 PM |
Actually, some people
Actually, some people
Actually, some people consider "minority" pejorative (there are actually civil-rights groups that hate the word), but that's another topic for discussion.
I'm genuinely curious to know why "minority" has become a code word for "black" in sports discussions.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:07 PM |
Ah
Ah
My guess is that people are often worried (even if only unconsciously) about being deemed racist of they say something about a given group, so it's easier to just cast a wide net and say "minority." His statement shouldn't have been offensive if he'd just said "black," to me, but we all know that people will sometimes jump down your throat even when it's not justified...There's also possibly an issue with people not knowing whether they should say "African American" or "black." I'm not kidding when I say that. I say "black" most of the time, but I certainly wouldn't be shocked to be upbraided at some point for not saying "African American."
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:12 PM |
I said "minority"
I said "minority"
because it's fewer words than "black and hispanic." Nothing more, nothing less.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.
April 5th, 2012 at 6:16 PM |
I didn't mean you in particular
I didn't mean you in particular
I thought it was an interesting question generally. My apologies if it seemed like I was projecting my guesses onto you.
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra
April 5th, 2012 at 6:08 PM |
It's not misleading.
It's not misleading.
It's not misleading. African-Americans are a minority in the United States. They're not a minority in this instance. I really don't get what point you're trying to make. Seems like you're grasping at straws.
April 5th, 2012 at 5:42 PM |
I agree
I agree
Let's not even start with this racism!!1!!! bull. It's so overplayed.
for everyone except the teenage kids from often poor backgrounds who are being prevented from making a crapton of money they would otherwise receive.
Thumbs down.
There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter.