OT: House of the Dragon/The Rings of Power
I know I know. We have football now. Don't hate on this too much. But I figure until the Maryland game, we're not gonna learn much about Michigan football. So, it's still fair to talk television stuff for a few more weeks. What a moment for us fantasy/sci-fi lovers.
No one was a bigger Game of Thrones fan than me. I'm the guy who not only watched every episode twice but had a shortlist of YouTube reviewers I would jump to each week to make sure I didn't miss important plot details or easter eggs (Yup. I always did). And excepting Season 8, which we can all agree was a rushed, materially unsourced, screeching left turn of an otherwise amazing series, I believe GOT to be a top-5 all-time television show - hard stop. So you can imagine my concern that an HBO money-grab prequel, rushed to production, would -- how shall I say this nicely -- blow chunks of Westerosi pig vomit. How wrong I would have been. Four episodes in, and not only are we seeing the familiar character builds and dramatic storyline developing into the storyline we know is coming (The Dance of Dragons), but the production value of this show has been stellar. You can see HBO put some serious capital into the success of this series, and early on it appears it's paying off. I can say, finally, that I'm very optimistic for this first season of House of the Dragon. Are you watching?
Then, at the same time....
I had heard about Amazon getting a hold of the Lord of the Rings franchise for $250M back in 2017. And I remember thinking then -- no way Jeff Bezos has something this special and doesn't do something amazing with it. Factor in that Amazon Prime has lacked the sci-fi "category killer" that HBO (Game of Thrones), Disney+ (Marvel), and Netflix (Stranger Things) have enjoyed. I got the sense that a LOT was riding on the success of this series, especially given the poor numbers The Hobbit franchise endured as feature films. Sure enough (and I hope it's not too early to say this) but I believe Amazon has hit gold with this series. We're three episodes in and I'm absolutely hooked on this story -- the prequel to the formation of The Rings of Power and the rise of Sauron. Dare I say I might enjoy this interpretation of Tolkien's view of Middle Earth and the rise of evil as much as the original Hobbit/LOTR novels. Perhaps even more, especially if they help to answer some of the lingering questions which remained from the original source material.
So which is better? Well, we're only a few episodes in, but at the moment I'm finding myself more fascinated with the Rings of Power storyline than House of the Dragon, particularly given last week's HOTD episode which featured (no spoilers!) --- uhhh, familial peculiarity (?) from our friends the Targaryens. That being said, House of the Dragon is about to get crazy if the reviewers are correct, and I can't wait to watch this battle for a super angry (and apparently sharp) Iron Throne unfold.
Which series are you watching? Or am I the only one who loves this stuff almost as much as I love Michigan football.
GO BLUE!
September 13th, 2022 at 1:37 PM ^
#LOTR #ROP. Loving the interpretation. Can't stop comparing it with the known history. Exciting.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:48 PM ^
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/game-of-thrones-season-8-redux/id1630181958
A season 8 redux? Yes please!
September 13th, 2022 at 1:38 PM ^
Watching both, and I am underwhelmed--not bad shows, but they share a common problem--no characters as compelling as their predecessor shows/movies. GOT had wonderful actors, great characters you cared about, same for LOTR. Both aspects are absent in the new shows IMO
September 13th, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
Not to spin this into video game territory but it’s this is the same feeling people had with Mass Effect: Andromeda. It’s also why Resident Evil struggles. It’s not the characters I came to know but it shares a name. If you can’t separate the two, the “new” will never live up.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:49 PM ^
In House of the Dragon they are also hopping across multiple generations, and going to have new actors/actresses for the older versions of characters, which won't help you get attached to them as much.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:55 PM ^
I've not watched ROP, but i share your view on HOTD. all the characters seem so boring. all just a bunch of Sansas running around complaining. I do hope things are going to pick up because i'm going to watch it either way (wifey is a big fan of the books)
September 13th, 2022 at 2:02 PM ^
Watching HotD and I swear D&D were doing the Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the TV meme after Episode 2 when they literally did the "subvert expectations" thing.
Maybe it's because I knew what was going to happen, but the whole time I was like, "oh, we're doing this bullshit again where we lazily setup a surprise twist by deliberately withholding relevant information from the audience."
September 13th, 2022 at 9:26 PM ^
Oh, just you wait, the characters are all about to get REAL interesting if it follows the book as closely as it has been.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:40 PM ^
I will watch The Rings of Power when I have time, I have heard it is awesome.
As for The House of the Dragon, I hate to say it, but not only did Season 7 of Game of Thrones really, really suck, it sucked to such a degree that I really don't care about the world it built any longer. I have gone back and re-watched some episodes, and it is just isn't there. I don't care. They would have to literally change the entire ending for me to think what came before it is even worth it.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
Same. The degree to which the showrunners irrevocably submarined the GoT franchise is hard to understate. I was all in during the first four seasons. It was no question one of my favorite series of all time.
The last four seasons--and the final one in particular--once Dan and Dave were stuck writing the story is probably the worst TV I've ever seen. Like you, it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I have no interest in anything related to that universe.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:32 PM ^
I don't disagree, but you wanna heap blame on the TV showrunners for taking 2 seasons to deliver a shitty ending (and you should!), then George RR Martin deserves even more opprobrium for taking 11+ years for no ending at all.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:41 PM ^
That's the thing, I don't really blame the showrunners. To a certain degree, the show/story was "un-endable." I think a lot of that stems from the bucking of any and all traditional narrative structure. Turns out those do serve a purpose. Frankly, the story "ended," if you will, at the Red Wedding.
I think the biggest mistake the show made was trying to bend and mold it into a traditional structure at the 11th hour. A quit cut to black after a completely unforeseen event would have been better, as would have been to continue bucking traditional structure and have the Night King win the battle and take the Throne.
What they did was the worst of all worlds, though, so they do get some blame. Even though I have a feeling it was largely dictated by Martin, himself.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:48 PM ^
Oh for sure. Dan and Dave never signed up to actually FINISH THE STORY of the Song of Ice and Fire. I'm sure they were shitting their pants when they slowly realized that GRRM wasn't going to finish his books by the time the show caught up to them. I guess you can argue over who is more to blame.
What can't be argued is that the last few seasons of GoT were hot, flaming, vile garbage.
September 13th, 2022 at 3:21 PM ^
The Battle of the Bastards holds up as a stand-alone experience. The loot-train robbery was an exceptionally shot battle scene. Aside from that I think you are absolutely correct.
September 13th, 2022 at 3:41 PM ^
Yeah, there is plenty of blame to go towards both parties. I've said my piece and then some about GRRM moving at the pace of Iowa's offense, but even so his last book (which for the record I didn't like) had some seeds that could've and shouldve been explored on the TV show. And the ending as presented on the show could've worked if the showrunners let the narrative unwind as opposed to speed running through their story beats** That much is on them, not GRRM.
** The most egregious example is Danaerys using dragons to jetset halfway up the continent to rescue her nephew/lover in the span of one episode. To go full nerd, the ONLY plausible defense of this is I'd you've ever played the GoThrones board game, you can do that for you control a continuous chain of boats in consecutive territories, which... yeah.
September 13th, 2022 at 3:22 PM ^
I feel like I'm about the only person in existence that actually liked Seasons 7 and 8. Probably because I was never a fan of the "kill off all the good guys, let the bad guys pretty much get away with everything" formula in the first place. I watched in spite of that, not because of that. So I was thrilled when the characters I liked actually started winning...
September 13th, 2022 at 3:31 PM ^
It wasn’t that the character’s “won.” It’s that it didn’t make any sense. Dany just literally FORGETS about the Greyjoy fleet? Jamie coldly and calculatingly spends 7 seasons deciding he is going to distance himself from his family and then runs back into Cersei’s arms because… she’s gonna die? Dany finally conquers Kings Landing, and then burns it because…????? Jon Snow goes back to the wall to guard it against a non-existent Night King army? Bran’s power ends up being worth absolutely nothing, and, he is then made King?
It was bad, my friend. Really, really bad.
September 14th, 2022 at 5:35 PM ^
Or how about how the biggest mystery of the show was who Jon's parents were, we find out (as many predicted) he was half Stark half Lannister suggesting he was "ice" and "fire" and therefore would be able to unite the kingdom, but instead it...didn't matter at all? He didn't become king so couldn't unite the kingdom and he didn't kill the Night King (despite being resurrected as potentially the prince who was promised). If the truth had been he actually was Ned's bastard, it wouldn't have affected his story at all because of the way they concluded the final season. The only thing it did was make him grossed out about hooking up with Daenerys (which I guess you could argue contributed to her going mad but hoo boy if that's the justification that is really terrible writing). I couldn't have dreamt of a more unsatisfying ending for Jon. Imagine Harry Potter, who has seen prophecy after prophecy tell him he (or maybe Neville) is going to be the one to end Voldemort, and then Ginny ends up killing him instead. It just makes you feel like what was it all for then?
September 13th, 2022 at 4:49 PM ^
I, too, enjoyed seasons 7 and 8. I find a lot of the whiny fanbase criticisms of the later seasons also existed for the earlier seasons, but the fans just ignored the flaws earlier that they focused on later. Fans wanted a perfect ending for a great show. When the perfect ending didn't happen, they lost their fucking minds and declared it was the worst show ever and Dan and Dave deserved to fucking die. The showrunners had to literally go into hiding due to death threats and harassment. The negative fans of the show just turned into absolute lunatics.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:36 PM ^
I kind of feel that way about LOST. Everyone seemed to just want to jump on the bandwagon and complain about the ending.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:47 PM ^
Every fan base complains about the ending of every single show. There's literally dozens of examples.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:52 PM ^
GOT is different. It ceased being what it was and became something else entirely long before the finale.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:56 PM ^
They are lunatics and the show ended poorly. I didnt listen to Dany ramble on for 8 seasons to watch her burn down kings landing for pretty much zero reason. Ill be honest though once she got the unsullied and torched the guy with her dragon I lost interest in her story. I wouldve much more enjoyed Jon and Ygritte become king and queen north of the wall. Now that was a couple!
September 13th, 2022 at 9:07 PM ^
I'm a negative fan, and I'm not a lunatic
September 13th, 2022 at 9:20 PM ^
Reply to Shadow and 42-27.
You are not the only ones. My wife constantly bitches because there weren’t enough episodes. When I remind her they were super long she just says “they should have made them into more episodes”.
One of my favorite scenes in the entire series is the gathering in the hall on the eve of the big battle. Quiet contemplation of the inevitable… somber and humorous at the same time.
I’ve watched season 8 several times. It was ACTION and fun. I watched for pure entertainment. I think the problem some people face is they have certain EXPECTATIONS. But not me.
So yeah, there are a few of us around!
September 14th, 2022 at 10:58 AM ^
Partial agree. The calm before the storm episode, S8E2, was legit great - not just by season 8 standards, but one of the better ones period.
They told so much story economically and elegantly, and the show would've been better served with more episodes, not less, because the showrunners needed to let the story breathe naturally, instead of forcing it through a ventilator which is kinda what they did the rest of season 8
September 13th, 2022 at 4:22 PM ^
I was a little jaded by the last season of GoT as well and had no interest in HoD, but me and the wife started watching it last week and we are really enjoying it.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:46 PM ^
I'm waiting for something to rival True Detective S1, for me that's the best television show I've ever seen.
As for HOTD, I was skeptical at best considering how GOT ended but it's pretty good so far, I've been pleasantly surprised with it.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:00 PM ^
Glad you said that. I loved that show. Season 3 was pretty damn good too. Season one of true detective was intense. Matthew mcconaughey (?) was amazing. His character was unbelievable.
I think GOT house of dragon is pretty good. Very underwhelmed with LOTR rings of power. I have to say the lord of the rings trilogy was my favorite every. Blew me away, still great to watch today. Rings of power is just blah, don’t really care about the characters.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:12 PM ^
True Detective Season 1 could be the best acted and directed TV show of all time, but it's not until you really re-watch it and consider it do you realize the writing really suffered during the second half of the season. You are taken down this rabbit hole of politics and deep corruption, and then.... well but this story has nothing to do with that, sorry! The show was successful at kind of patching it up with what can only be described as pure "velocity" and it was quite a ride, it is just that the sum was not as good as the parts. (which were admittedly spectacular).
September 13th, 2022 at 3:52 PM ^
I've never seen that as a complaint - in fact my experience was the opposite that the time lapse and the plot shift helped frame the political and corruptive forces as so much more overwhelming than any individual moral agent
September 13th, 2022 at 6:02 PM ^
That is interesting. I will think on that.
September 15th, 2022 at 9:53 AM ^
Silent reflection.
September 13th, 2022 at 5:22 PM ^
i 100% agree with this except i felt it real-time. the finale made no goddamn sense at all. it turned into an action flick. i felt like i was watching adaptation.
September 13th, 2022 at 6:06 PM ^
Yeah, I mean whether you feel the story held up or not, there is no excusing Rust literally being picked up off the ground with a machete by a Jason-type character and SURVIVING.
Cant have it both ways with that. He didn’t have superpowers.
September 13th, 2022 at 2:41 PM ^
MINDHUNTER!
Seriously its such a good show.
September 13th, 2022 at 3:36 PM ^
Check out Under the Banner of Heaven (Hulu). So, so good and has the creeping evil vibe that TD S1 had
September 14th, 2022 at 10:24 AM ^
Black Bird is another great mini-series that gave off some TD vibes. I loved it.
September 15th, 2022 at 1:35 AM ^
Watching that right now as I scroll through this thread
September 13th, 2022 at 10:44 PM ^
When we talk about horrible endings, True Detective S1 is up there. Loved the show but that final episode was a letdown. Probably would have been better off with an ambiguous ending given the style of the show.
September 14th, 2022 at 7:24 AM ^
When people ask for recs, I always narrow it to just episodes 1-3 of season 1 of True Detective, but those early episodes were breathtaking and I've never used that word to describe a TV series. I mean, I felt transported to another world.
It would have been incredible to keep that up throughout the season but probably unrealistic on my part.
I am intrigued that some think season 3 was also good. I stopped watching we'll before then but maybe worth checking out.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:48 PM ^
Familial peculiarity is turning you off from HoTD? Buckle up.
I loved GoT until the last two seasons.
I like both HoTD and RoP so far. I know the comparisons are inevitable, but I don’t care to engage in that yet.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:49 PM ^
I’ve watched the first two episodes of Rings of Power and have been really unimpressed. Maybe it’s just me.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:51 PM ^
Interesting! Like the characters aren't developing? Visually?
September 13th, 2022 at 2:34 PM ^
Boring. Dialogue is just too fanciful and laborious to listen to after a long day. Good show if I need to fall asleep as I've not been able to make it through the first episode on 3 different tries already.
September 13th, 2022 at 7:14 PM ^
Saaaaaaaaame
September 13th, 2022 at 8:41 PM ^
Nope, not just you. The character development of Galadriel, Gil-Galad and Elendil, and to a lesser extent Elrond, is underwhelming. They're going for a video game type show and are forgoing developing a world / characters that Tolkien did so well.
September 13th, 2022 at 1:52 PM ^
For the last couple weeks, ROP has been my house's pre-football entertainment. I do have to actively disengage my brain and just enjoy the damn show, though, because my knowledge of Middle Earth history is similar to my knowledge of our Earth history: I remember a lot of what happens and how it may be important, but I don't remember when it happens. I find myself saying things like, "Wait, if X is here now, should Y be at Z..." and stopping myself because they'll probably explain it and I should just grab a drink and have fun.
I don't have the same relationship to the GoT source material, so I really enjoyed the show (and noticed a steady decline with some intermittent peaks) until everybody didn't. Because of that, I have found myself needlessly nitpicky about the new show, but overall I find myself enjoying it.
September 13th, 2022 at 3:39 PM ^
Just keep in mind they've greatly condensed the timeline in RoP and I imagine that will lead to some characters being completely missing (Galadriel should technically have an adult daughter by now if I remember correctly - for instance).