OT: Honors courses vs AP vs IB
I'll start by saying some may take the following as being boastful about my kid. If that's your feeling, I suggest you click on another topic. I'd rather not get flamed over my son's aspirations. That said, on with the query:
My son is a freshman in high school. He has aspirations of attending a prominent university (among the candidates is Michigan, of course).
He's a straight A student and is enrolled in Honors classes. He's got a 4.2 and he also plays quarterback on the football team and 2nd base/pitcher on the baseball team.
His school offers AP and International Baccalaureate courses. We've shied away from the IB program because some of the teachers seem to take pride in giving students "their first B." I don't want him reaching for the "low hanging fruit" but I also don't want his gpa to take a hit from a teacher who prides themself on a reputation of being "tough."
My question is, in your opinion, does a student with a 3.5gpa in AP/IB courses have a more favorable background than a student with a 4.0+ in honors courses (standardized test scores being equal)?
I've emailed one school in particular that my son really wants to attend. The response was to take the AP/IB courses because "we recognize that honors, AP/IB, and college courses are more rigorous and require high levels of commitment and effort. By choosing the most advanced courses for which he is prepared-and by doing well in them-he can send a powerful message about his desire to challenge himself in an academic environment and about his preparation for the demands of (insert school's name here) academic programs.
The AP/IB student would be more highly regarded. Taking those courses shows a lot of drive on the part of the student. Besides, a lot of schools unofficially regard a B in one of those classes as being more or less equal to an A in a "regular" high school class. Be careful that your son doesn't overburden himself, though. He needs some easy classes in his schedule.
Not only can he take the AP exams to get college credit if he passes AP courses will better prepare him for college. That is what Michigan will tell you because if he takes the easy way out and never takes the hardest classes at his school he won't prepare himself for college.
Take the challenging courses.
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Absolutely take the challenging courses. Best decision I ever made in my whole education.
Seconded.
Ivy League schools are particularly savvy in terms of deciphering the degree of difficulty of a school's particular curriculum. Especially if your son happens to attend a public high school, the AP/IB program will help level the playing field significantly. It should come as no surprise that many students who attend Harvard, Yale, Princeton, UPenn, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown and Cornell are from a fairly small sample of Northeast prep schools - where AP/IB are emphasized - so his scores on AP/IB will give admissions officers a more relevant metric to compare him to their previous applicants.
However, make sure he continues to stay involved on the field and, perhaps, one non-athletic extra-curricular activity. These schools are becoming more and more rigorous in their admissions so sports and (notable) extra-curricular activities (i.e. Forensics, Debate, Model UN) are becoming more important to the overall picture.
Good Luck!
He attends a catholic prep school.
I appreciate everyone's response.
I think he should become involved in one non-athletic extra-curricular or a community project. You need to do more than just play sports and have a high GPA to get into elite schools.
Sort of off subject, but does anyone know when this phenomenon of 4.0+ GPAs came about? I remember when I was in high school at Divine Child in Dearborn (I graduated in '02), during my senior year, the school adopted the whole "extra grade points for A+ grades and AP classes or whatever." Seems kind of disingenuous to do such a thing.
In which classes will he learn more? Isn't that (or: shouldn't that be) the real point of taking classes anyways?
Does his school give a GPA multiplier for AP/IB courses? My high school gave a 1.1 multiplier for that (not IB - there were no IB as far as I know) so in the grading scale they used, a B in an AP course was better than a B+ in a regular course, and an A- in an AP course was almost as good as a regular A+.
Either way though I heartily agree with what everyone's said. Definitely stick with the challenging courses. That college credit for AP exams can't be beat. Earning credit for my AP English courses literally led directly to my graduating on time (I otherwise would have needed at least an extra semester due to changing majors.)
Oh, and one piece of advice regarding what mcgoblue said about extracurriculars. One thing that stuck with me throughout the whole admission process is that colleges aren't looking necessarily for the well-rounded student, they're looking for the well-rounded student body. That hit home when I was accepted at UVA and another girl in my class wasn't - and she had a 4.0 (much better than my GPA), was senior class president, two sports, volunteer work, all that stuff. I don't know what specifically they looked at when they accepted me, although I have a few theories, but beware of assuming that being the high school all-star everything is a ticket to whatever school. Whatever your son does best is what the colleges should be hearing about.
Good point in your 3rd paragraph. I had never considered this, yet it makes perfect sense.
I would suggest AP courses (I haven't heard of IB, though). The main reason is that your son would have a chance at doing well on AP tests and earning college level credit (I entered M with 12 credits, which made my 4 years easier, and would have allowed me to graduate in 3.5, but the B-School wouldn't let me).
you have to keep in mind that it is harder to get into michigan from out-of-state than from in-state. no, this is not saying that every kid at michigan who came from out-of-state is smarter than the in-state kids, but yes, given the competition and the quotas that need to be filled, it is a bit more selective if you are out-of-state.
he sounds intelligent, athletic and ambitious, and probably gets women too. Bastard.
Everybody who applies to the Ivies and like-minded schools has a 4.0 or plus these days, and it does not help your son to be in the applicant pool when all of the baby boomers are sending their kids to college. I know it may sound trite, but I would advise your son to take as challenging a schedule as he can, while still allowing himself to be a kid. Just as the Ivies are leery of taking a kid who does not challenge themselves, they start to ask questions when a kid is completely overloaded. Tell him to take AP level courses in subjects that he is passionate about, as he will probably do a lot better that way. Schools want to see well-rounded students, but they are really looking for someone to demonstrate a particular interest or passion academically.
One thing that you should know is that schools are becoming tougher about which AP scores that they will accept, because they want to make all of their students take their introductory courses. As an AP teacher myself (Micro and Macroeconomcis) at an east coast prep school, I would suggest that he takes these courses for the right reasons. I see so many of my students who are taking 4 or more APs who are absolutely miserable their senior year (many of them, because they feel pressure from their folks), and I think that your son will do well if he is happy.
Outside of school I think that it is great that he is an athlete, and I would suggest that he consider doing significant internships, college work or community work in the summer time. If he is interested in science, he should volunteer to help with college research (this is what my brother did, and he found it invaluable to his path from the Ivy League to MIT for graduate work).
There are so many good schools out there, and I would suggest that he think about the kind of academic atmosphere he wants. He will be surprised at how many Ivy League caliber schools there are in the country.
Be supportive and show him that learning should be fun and a lifelong venture, and I am sure he will turn out fine. I mean, dad is a Michigan football fan, which says a lot to begin with.
My two cents.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have taken all of the AP courses I could get my hands on. *Plus*, don't underestimate the value of building some college credits before your son sets foot on campus. Nice for you in that you save a few bucks. Nice for him in that it will relieve some pressure of getting in all the required credit hours in a limited time. Sometimes, the difference between a couple of credit hours per semester makes all the difference between sanity and complete overload.
All of this greatly outweighs any possible leverage you get from a padded high school GPA.
Now, once hes' enrolled, getting into a choice grad school (or the undergraduate B school) may require a very different strategy...
If your kid can't handle multiple ap classes.. He'll flunk out of Michigan. Challenge himself now so that he doesn't fail out wherever he goes.
Take AP classes. Though I'm a U of M student, my bro is a soph at Yale. After he went through the process, he told me it really isn't about AP/IB classes because everyone who applies has a few. He said his current advisor said that quantity isn't a huge factor. It's more about distinguishing factors...awards, sports, etc. Stuff like Westinghouse winners, Presidential scholar, top 5 finisher in state science/math olympiad. But if your kid really likes U of M, he doesn't really need all of that. A few APs will do.
that your child has the opportunity to make that choice. Many schools (still!) don't offer IB or AP classes, and grads from those schools have a difficult time measuring up against a child such as yours. Your child has an inherent advantage; make sure he seizes it.
No.
Challenging the curriculum means exactly that. If a student has a 4.0 but has never takes the harder classes offered in their high school, application reviewers will ask "Why?". Not taking harder classes but getting straight A's in easy classes doesn't look good on an application. A student who takes a mix of regular and AP classes and gets B's in 1-2 of them will be favored over an underachieving student who never tries to take a harder class.
Also, speaking to a 4.0+ GPA, Michigan, along with most top colleges, recalculates each students' GPA. There are no possible 4.0+'s and no random bonuses by high schools.
March 11th, 2009 at 12:23 AM ^
I think if you're looking for the best overall option, I'd suggest going for the IB diploma, rather than simply taking a few IB or AP classes. The IB is designed to be a comprehensive college preparatory program in and outside of the classroom.
It's been 5 years since I graduated with an IB diploma, so I don't know how much of it's changed recently. The IB program requires its students to perform service, complete a senior thesis, and conduct science projects and presentations in order to receive the diploma.
Ultimately, I'm not sure how much of a difference completing the entire program matters in the eyes of admissions people, particularly if your son is active outside of the classroom anyway. Since the IB program is somewhat rare, it will definitely make your son stand out from even those who have taken a few AP classes.
I pretty much agree with everyone here. Regular H.S. classes were extremely easy for me and I didn't have to work very hard to get good grades. Because of this, I never developed the necessary study skills to succeed early on in college. So when I got to UM I felt like a moron and had no idea how to study for a real college course. AP courses aren't that difficult to be honest, unless he's a sophomore taking them. If possible, he should dual-enroll at a at a four year university nearby.
I knew a kid a year younger than me who was taking classes at UM as a senior in H.S. with me my freshman year. He was aiming for Ivy, but regardless, he has UM credit under his belt and he understood the rigors of a college course as a high school student because he actually took them. AP classes cannot give you that, although they are the closest thing if dual-enrollment is not a possibility. Plus, the school pays for it! Even better than an AP course if you ask me, and some graduate schools (like some medical schools) don't prefer AP credits whatsoever.
I would only advise dual-enrollment if he's a mature young man, otherwise dual-enrolling might be too overwhelming in a way that AP classes are not. Sitting with college kids as a high schooler can obviously be very intimidating and demoralizing so he'd have to be prepared for that.
Eh, to be honest I'm not sold on dual enrollment. I knew a couple kids in high school who did that. If going to as good a school as possible and being as prepared as you possibly can is the overarching goal, then dual enrollment is fine, but it requires a lot of sacrifice. A disproportionate amount, if you ask me. There's something to be said for letting a kid be a kid.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:02 AM ^
I can't speak as to what would look better on applications; I got into UM without any AP classes (of course, I went to a podunk school that didn't offer any).
However, I did want to mention that even if your son does get AP credit, it wouldn't hurt for him to retake those classes when he gets to college. I was a peer advisor for the College of Engineering, and several times I worked with kids who were struggling in upper level courses because their high school AP classes 'taught the test' rather than the material. If it's not a huge financial crunch (and not to make any assumptions, but he's going to a Catholic prep school...) it would behoove him to take those classes again once he gets to college. It should be a fairly easy A (which would count toward his GPA, unlike the AP credit) and it would make sure that he really knows what he needs to know before taking the higher level courses.
Just a thought.
March 11th, 2009 at 10:38 AM ^
As helpful as AP courses can be when it comes to receiving college credit, they are rarely a good substitute for a college class when it comes to actually learning the material. They're best for getting credit in something you really don't want to take. (In my case, I scraped out a qualifying score on the Calculus AB test and managed to avoid taking Math 125 at UM.)