OT-former North Carolina football player's comments on academic scandal

Submitted by MGoBrewMom on
From msn.com: Former UNC football player, Tydreke Powell, claims "everyone knew" about the academic dishonesty that's alleged to have taken place at North Carolina. By "everyone" it implies that means even Roy Williams. This has some pretty enormous implications if true. http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/former-unc-football-player-revea…

mGrowOld

November 11th, 2014 at 11:48 PM ^

And yet the NCAA will probably do absolutely nothing about it.  Nothing.

It's one reason I applaud Schlissel's comments regarding the need for the academic side of the University to not be excluded from athletics.  I can handle the football team being a (temporary) mess - I would have a much harder time dealing with the knowledge that our academic reputation was a fraud.

Cranky Dave

November 12th, 2014 at 11:59 AM ^

when Dean was around.  I probably shouldn't admit this on MGoBlog but I spent my last two years at and graduated from Chapel Hill in the late '80s.  I had two classes with basketball players and while they did travel with a tutor they came to class and from what I could tell did take their own tests.  Not to say people weren't typing (on actual typewriters) papers or doing other things behind the scenes but there was nothing blatant that I saw as described by Powell in the article. 

Gobgoblue

November 11th, 2014 at 11:58 PM ^

people to testify things like this they are fucked. If not, the NCAA will ask if they did anything wrong, UNC will say "uhh.... nope." and the NCAA will move along.

Qmatic

November 12th, 2014 at 12:04 AM ^

It's a shane, because for non-athletes UNC is a pretty damn good school. It's a school where its academic standards were put in the same breath as U-M, Virginia, Berkley, and UCLA as the top public institutions in the country. It's a shame that these students degrees have been compromised for the sake of the almighty dollar that athletics bring in.

GoBLUinTX

November 12th, 2014 at 12:49 AM ^

But I believe only half of those involved at UNC were atheltes.  In any case my impression is that the scandal pertained to one small area of study to which a select group of  students were directed as a means of helping their GPA and scholastic eligibility.

MGoBrewMom

November 12th, 2014 at 12:59 AM ^

I was thinking that this could provide fuel for the president to look for a certain fit for AD that may lean more toward academics, than what a vocal group of fans would like. I'm one that is okay with him ensuring this type of smoke never comes closer to Michigan. so.... while not what you are asking, but I am guessing Schissles focus may be different than John Q Fan...and this type of story may validate that position.

bronxblue

November 12th, 2014 at 12:26 AM ^

I'm sure there will be a full and complete analysis of the situation by the NCAA, by which I mean a haphazard questioning of former players and current staff, followed up by meaningless wrist slaps all around.

Mpfnfu Ford

November 12th, 2014 at 1:45 AM ^

We saw what happened with Penn State thanks to the recent emails. School presidents complained and the media was on their ass so the NCAA dropped major punishments even though they themselves were worried the punishments weren't legal under their bylaws. 

I imagine there's a lot of school presidents calling the NCAA voicing a desire to see UNC thunderfucked. So I imagine something big will come down on UNC athletics whether it makes sense or not. 

LSAClassOf2000

November 12th, 2014 at 6:54 AM ^

"One thing about Carolina, man," he said. "If you ain't got a class with a basketball player, you better go find one. If you got one with 'em, you know it's an A."

Yeah, if a few more players start coming out with similar statements, things could get very interesting for UNC and the Tar Heels if the NCAA really wanted to do something. They may not, of course, or what they do may not relate in any way to the scope of what is going on, but the number of statements coming out lately about how passing grades were being handed out like free samples is pretty damning to say the least. 

Jinxed

November 12th, 2014 at 7:37 AM ^

Any human being of average intellectual capacity who was able to get into Michigan through his/her academic achievements who also happened to take a class that Mario Manningham was able to pass could reasonably be expected to get an A on said class with very little effort. 

Mmmm Hmmm

November 12th, 2014 at 7:19 AM ^

My cynical side says that UNC will, despite all logic, get a relatively light penalty from the NCAA. Then again, my snarky side is rooting for the NCAA to uncover that instead of going to class, the athletes were stretching...


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charblue.

November 12th, 2014 at 1:28 PM ^

charged by the Freep with overtraining its players and far exceeding the countable hours limit for football-related activities, UNC conducted its own investigation into the academic fraud that occurred over an an alleged 18 years at the school. 

The university report was recently released and turned over to the NCAA which will now use it to supplement its own investigative findings and subsequent hearings on the case, leading to whatever official punishment and sanctions are administered. 

If anything, I think the fraud case which was actually triggered by comments from a former Carolina player who claimed the school offered scholarship athletes, especially black athletes, were frequently steered into sham African American core courses that could be passed with faked papers and work performed by others. 

In its findings, the university noted that the program was created by a certain professor no longer at the school (gone for several years now) and that groups of players were clustered in the program, but that the basketball coaching staff, especially the head coach, had limited knowledge of what was taking place. Roy Williams claimed practically no knowledge except to admit that he was slightly aware through a colleague that many players in his program were apparently taking similar courses. He supposedly questioned whether there was intent involved in this, but he claimed to have never addressed it directly with anyone beyond that or directly intervened to find out. 

Williams  foggy knowledge of the program and its reach within his program that extends beyond his tenure at the school, might seem strange, given the fact that certain players have suggested he had to know more than he has admitted. But even in his public remarks of contrition about the scandal and  confession of  a limited hangout, indicating he once had a slight feeling something might be going on, but not wanting to find out, the university report basically supports this contention. The staff apparently didn't openly encourage enrollment in the black studies program. 

Nobody wants to smear the school's basketball history with knowledge that its players never attended class and were given sham grades for tests, papers and classroom work they didn't perform because it would ruin too many reputations. 

The media in NC has to my knowledge not wanted to stir the pot any more than absolutely necessary because basketball is king and you don't step on the cape of a superprogram with all that history. Still, NCAA officials have been rattling some cages with tough rhetoric and others have suggested the school's academic ranking could be severely compromised. 

The key for anything to happen is the uncovering of people willing to testify. Who knows whether there is a paper trail that leads to the kind of action that forced Jim Tressel out after it was determined he had repeatedly lied about Tattoogate. In any case, the full UNC report of the scandal is online.. 

Jinxed

November 12th, 2014 at 7:33 AM ^

I'm not sure I'm ready to get on the high horse for this one.

We had similar claims flinged at us a few years ago. Don't you guys remember the independent studies scandal? I don't know if things have changed since I attended Michigan, but when I did, pretty much everyone knew some programs within LSA were basically a joke... and a lot of athletes seemed to gravitate towards those programs. 

Mr Miggle

November 12th, 2014 at 8:38 AM ^

Most of the traffic is going a little faster than the speed limit. We're okay with going 74, some others are pushing 80. Those strictly going at the speed limit are the only ones with grounds to complain. But when someone zooms by going 120, it's a different ballgame. Not only are they being reckless with their own future, but they are going to attract attention that might affect us too.

You don't need to be a hypocrite to criticize UNC while your own school is not squeaky clean. As a fan who's been uncomfortable with cutting corners on academics here and elsewhere, I welcome the scrutiny the UNC scandal is bringing. I hope it leads to widespread reform, including here. I'm not so naive to believe it's going to lead to a level playing field. Maybe it will even put us at a competitive disadvantage. That would be unfortunate, but I prefer to take my chances there than to cheat because others are getting away with it.

Everyone Murders

November 12th, 2014 at 8:46 AM ^

I think the "let he who is without sin" argument you're espousing is way off the mark in real life.*

When I drive on the expressway, I sometimes speed.  I'm not squeaky-clean (or, to go to the gist of your argument, without sin).  But when somebody passes me going down the expressway at 95 miles an hour, endangering everyone, I have no problem questioning their priorities.

I live in a large city, and last Spring had to chase an intruder out of my house with a baseball bat.  I kept chasing him until I cornered him and the cops came and arrested him.  Technically, I should have stopped when he ran from the house (i.e., when the immediate danger had passed), so my behavior was not squeaky-clean.  But when people in similar circumstances shoot the intruder, I have no problem questioning their judgment.

My alma mater had a scandal where they had coaches supervise stretching.  It was not squeaky-clean.**  But when UNC institutionalizes fake classes and enables athletes to avoid getting an education so they can focus on sports, I have no problem questioning their integrity.

And on and on.  Taking your "squeaky-clean" approach to its logical conclusion, nobody should ever criticize anyone else's behavior unless they're perfect.  That's just silly, IMO.

*I'm no theologian (and not particularly religious), but I'm also pretty sure that the point of the "throwing stones" biblical passage was to underscore that we are all sinners, not that you should never criticize anyone ever. For example, Jesus was pretty critical of the Pharisees.

**Of course Michigan also had a basketball scandal where Ed Martin was paying players and the school turned a blind eye to it - that was serious.  But the Michigan fanbase (at least most of us) own that scandal, and thus recognizes the board in our own eye).  And Michigan suffered mightily for those transgressions.

Everyone Murders

November 12th, 2014 at 9:38 AM ^

You stated "if we're not squeaky-clean I don't think we should be throwing stones."  That's the standard to which I was responding.  And I think it's an impossible standard.  (Besides, where better to see someone's flaws than from a glass house?  The view is fantastic!

As far as the article from six years ago, I think - like the examples I put in my first reply - I'm seeing in shades of gray, while you're looking at things in black-and-white.*  That's your prerogative.  But stating that "if we're not squeaky-clean I don't think we should be throwing stones" like it's manifest fact?  I still disagree.

I do agree with you on one major point.  Our criticism should be both inward and outward.

*Bullshit courses have been available at LSA at least since the stone ages when I went there, and the BGS degree (at least historically) varied wildly in its "validity" depending upon how a student chose their courses.  But courses where you'd have another student openly take your test or Jim Harrick Jr. basketball tests?  I never caught a whiff of that in A2.

Jinxed

November 12th, 2014 at 9:44 AM ^

I don't think we're ever going to agree on the subject. My opinion is that saying "God, UNC should get their accreditation pulled for this!" when our own school was doing similar things is a bit... silly. I agree that we should criticize both inward and outward, but from reading these comments, there doesn't seem to be much inward criticism going on.

I think the main issue is that we disagree on how bad Michigan's actions were. I think they're almost as bad as UNC, I get the impression you think they're miles apart. To make the same argument Brian did, we're much closer to UNC than we are to a school like Vandy or Northwestern... if you want to judge it on a spectrum rather than absolutes. 

Everyone Murders

November 12th, 2014 at 9:56 AM ^

When did I say that UNC should get its accreditation pulled for this?  When did I say that Michigan was squeaky-clean?

I was just objecting to your black-and-white "we shouldn't criticize anyone unless we're squeaky clean" position.  Because nobody's squeaky-clean, and consequently under your premise nobody would ever be in a position to criticize anything - no matter how egregious. 

And if you don't think there are "rocks for jocks" classes at Vandy or Northwestern, I respectfully disagree.  While it's not as flagrant at those schools as, say, UNC, there are easy paths to be had at those schools - for both athletes and the less-motivated student body in general.

Jinxed

November 12th, 2014 at 10:13 AM ^

I'm talking about the people writing on this thread in general.

People have said things ranging from "death penalty" to "suspended accreditation" and "academic reputation gone." Do you honestly fail to see how statements such as those could be considered hypocritical by an outside observer? 

Perhaps there are rocks for jocks classes at Vandy or Northwestern. However, I doubt there's any classes where you can get 4 credit hours for a paper 2 months into a 3 month semester. We have(or had) that at Michigan. 

 

Everyone Murders

November 12th, 2014 at 10:18 AM ^

Your last paragraph is in line with one reason I like the Schlissel hire.  We need to push back against classes like the one you described.  And while I though Harbaugh's comments about Michigan academics when he was at Stanford were uncalled for, part of the reason they stung was because there was more than a grain of truth to them.  So yeah, things could improve at Michigan (assuming that the situations you cite from six years ago still persist).

But the UNC situation seems to be on a whole other level.  Having other people openly take your tests is academic fraud, pure and simple.  And when it's endemic in your school, it's time to shine a bright light on the situation.

(BTW, it's good to have a thoughtful back-and-forth on this.  I agree that some of the comments have been a tad shrill, self-righteous, and reactionary.  But it's a message board fergodsakes!)

Jinxed

November 12th, 2014 at 9:13 AM ^

http://mgoblog.com/content/data 

That's one post by Brian on the subject.

"Sucking a kid into an independent study with a month to go in the semester and then lobbing four B+ credits at Gabe Watson for writing a single twelve page paper that probably says "FEED ME SO HUNGRY WANT PORK CHOP" on at least six of those pages is something close to academic fraud. The university protests "this isn't Auburn" at one juncture in the article, but on the academic integrity continuum that extends from Vanderbilt on one end to Auburn on the other, that's a lot closer to Auburn.

Michigan is systematically funneling kids at risk of losing their eligibility into independent study courses of questionable content, and will in extreme cases fob some credits at players for four weeks of work in a 15 week semester. The Ann Arbor News establishes that."

I'm sorry, but if us criticizing UNC on this particular topic isn't hypocritical... I really don't know what is. 

maizenbluenc

November 12th, 2014 at 2:24 PM ^

monitoring classes for more than 20% athletes comment that Schlissel made was directly related to the Independent Studies scandal. I also recall a story about a list of easy classes being provided to athletes at Stanford. This is where I agree with Schlissel, and think that the NCAA needs to own UNC as an example of a broader problem that requires broader policy changes.

jmdblue

November 12th, 2014 at 11:31 AM ^

you see this slippery slope arguing all the time and it makes me nuts.  I'm not allowed to criticize Middle Eastern treatment of women because there is a racist police department in a Missouri town? 

To the OP's point.  We should keep in mind the very real possibility that the former football player just has an axe to grind with his old school.  I'm guessing what he says is true and his commentary is embarrasing to UNC whether it's true or not, but I don't think it's uncommon for ex-athletes who don't accomplish their goals to become very bitter toward their ex-schools.