OT: A different look at Jordan vs James for NBA Finals week
Very OT but it is NBA Finals week (should be a GREAT series) and I have been working on this new way to compare Jordan and James for a while, so I thought this would be a good time to get some input on it. I approached it a different way than game stats vs game stats and took a team approach. Open to all criticism on it, let me have it :P
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BymFZreT4B3OOGw0S09ydUNaSVE/view
OP - Can you do this for Whitney Houston vs Mariah Carey as well? Thanks in advance.
Whitney - undefeated in the NBA playoffs
Carey - never won a single NBA playoff game
How's that? :)
Not that it's on-point (as far as the original post is concerned), but I think the two players are most dissimilar in personality.
For all his quirks (and The Decision), LeBron seems pretty bright and thoughtful. Jordan, on the other hand, always seemed pretty simple-minded. Not a great character, either ...
And I thought it was spot on. ("Simple" is not, IMO.)
The person Jordan has always reminded me of the most--and I'm not talking about their gambling issues although it's probably a root cause for both--is Pete Rose. I met Rose a few times when I was a teenager and I found him very personable, as long as the subject of the conversation was baseball. He really could only talk about two things, himself and baseball. If you were interested in one or the other, he was great.
I never met Jordan but he gave me a similar impression (although he can probably talk about golf too). Maybe somebody that has can weigh in?
Jordans weakness in gambeling caused the two year hiatus...that should be considered in this discussion.
How do you judge one for their own actions versus that of their famiy's?
How do you judge one for their own actions versus that of their famiy's?
At age 32, both had 3 rings.
/As a longtime Warriors fan, I hope Lebron never get another ring.
Three years isn't a long time mate.
LeBron is the vastly superior NBA player.
That's the end of that one.
Bosh is very talented but he is no Rodman. Wade vs Pippen is much more interesting and much closer, but Rodman makes the decision for me.
Pippen and Rodman easily.
Rodman is probably the best rebounder of all time and was an amazing defensive player.
Pippen is probably the best perimeter defender of all time and was excellent at creating his own shot.
Bosh and Wade are both the superior offensive players but only marginally (at least for Wade v Pippen, Bosh is clearly superior). Also, if I already have Lebron or Jordan I want them to be freed up on the defensive end from guarding the opposing team's best player and draining all of their energy.
So who would win a game of one on one: Jordan, James, or Chamberlain?
MJ had 0 games where he scored fewer than 15 points vs LeBron having 5 games scoring fewer than 15 points in the playoffs. When MJ was "sick" during the playoffs, he went off and dominated vs LeBron being "sick' scoring 11 points. Still would take MJ over Bron no matter what.
1. Lebron has never lost in the first round of the playoffs - MJ lost 4 times. To me those that call out Lebron's final record have to take this into consideration as well.
2. Lebron took this supporfting cast to the 2007 NBA finals:Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavolic, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Larry Hughes. Many have said that's the worst starting 5 to ever reach the title series.I
3. Lebron dragged Tristin Thompson, Timofey Mozgof, Iman Shumpert and the corpse of Mathew Delladova to a 6 game series against the Warriors.
4 Lebon defeated the NBA's first 73 win team led by the NBA's first unanomous MVP winner by averaging 35-9-9 over the final three games and was the first player in NBA history to lead both teams in points, assists, blocks, rebounds and steals for the series.
Ask any GM in the league who they'd take if they could have any player for one year and they all take Lebron without hesitation yet he finishes 4th in MVP voting by the media. He's bigger, stronger and far more athletic than MJ and has a better 3 point percentage.
If Lebron can drive the Cavs to a second NBA title against the greatest assembly of talent in NBA history I think the debate over who is the "greatest" will definitely tilt strongly in his favor.
Look - MJ can have his 6 titles. Lebron delivered one to Cleveland and anybody who knows anything about our history knows that bringing 6 titles to Chicago is child's play comparied to winning one here in C-town.
For the 3rd time in 1 calendar year.
If they aren't, they're on pace to be (pending championships - plural).
- Kevin Durant might ovetake KAJ in career points scored. He's on pace. And he's a former MVP.
- Steph Curry is the best shooter in NBA history and can further solidify his status. He made the 3 point shot sexy.
- Klay Thompson is an all-star and yet many feel that he hasn't come close to reaching his peak because he hasn't developed a strong handle. But he's an excellent two way player (who isn't ball dominant).
- Draymond Green is a mini-Lebron/Magic. And his defensive impact can't be questioned.
There are not too many teams in NBA history that have featured a collection of talent as strong as this one. The Lakers and Celtics of the 80s are in the discussion. But if Golden State racks up NBA Championships, they can become the greatest collection of talent by results.
But like the Showtime Lakers (which elevated transition offense into a glamorus art form), the Warriors are revolutionizing the game. Just 6 years ago, teams were scheming to allow opponents corner 3s. (See 2010 Lakers/Celtics Finals series.) That has changed dramatically with the rise of analytics.
Golden State is a good-to-great center away from being unfuckwitable. If the Warriors find another steal like Draymond Green at C, it's game over. Someone like Nikola Jokic of the Denver Nuggets (who was drafted in the 2nd round and blossomed into a point center) on this Warriors team would completely destroy any semblance of competition.
What did Russell/Cousy-Havlicek/Sam Jones need to do to get into the conversation? Win nine titles in eight seasons?
The thing about those earlier teams is that there weren't nearly as many teams in the league and talent wasn't spread as thin. There was hardly a year, in over a decade, that Boston didn't have three guys on the NBA's top ten. Russell, always. Before Havlicek it was Cousy. Before Sam Jones it was Heinsohn, before Heinsohn was Sharman.
Lots of people have led the finals (or the league for that matter) in both scoring and steals. Or both scoring and assists. Or scoring and rebounds.
Leading the finals in scoring and assists and rebounds and blocks and steals? That's happened one time, and nobody else has ever come close. (Leading in three or four but zeroing out in the others doesn't qualify as close.)
Versatility and across-the-board stat stuffing isn't all there is to being a great basketball player. But you can't handwave it away, either.
And you maintain you were a "scout" at one point for UM basketball?
Look, LeBron is a great player. A smart, team player. But only an idiot or a Cavs fan takes LeBron first over Jordan if there were such a draft.
Any your "greatest assembly of talent in NBA history" is so far off it is laughable.
You wrote "Any your 'greatest assembly of talent in NBA history' is so far off it is laughable."
What team in NBA history woud you put above this Warriors team? And why? I'm interested to read your reply.
I gave my thoughts on this above.
I was a recruiter for football from 92-94. I know that seems awfully close to being a scout for basketball (what with both sports employing a ball and all that) but no, never made that claim.
My students and I have been enjoying this debate for several years now.
I have to go with MJ. It's close. But it's a perimeter game, and MJ is/was better on the perimeter, both offensively and defensively. It's real close, though.
Whoever up there said LeBron is quicker, I disagree. I do agree that LeBron is a better overall athlete. But we're not talking about overallball.
The evolution of the NBA obscures the issue, unfortunately. The league's promotion of offense over defense is significant, I think, and makes it more difficult to compare than it otherwise would be.
What would LeBron's equivalent to the Jordan "Revenge on Ewing" block be? It's feelingsball, but that moment by Jordan - and I hate Jordan - is pure daggers. If you didn't grow up watching Jordan and haven't seen it, go watch it on Youtube, the full version showing both blocks.
How was MJ superior on the perimeter? Lebron has a significantly higher 3 point percentage than Jordan (0.342 vs. 0.327). I would argue that Jordan was superior at creating his own shot and specifically uncontested shots. Jordan's explosiveness meant that when he was younger that he could simply clown people and as he got older that fadeaway jumper was damn near unstoppable because he just jumped so high and created so much space that nobody was blocking that.
Oh and if you want to talk about great blocks take a look at link below (oh and it was Game 7 of the finals FWIW)
Honestly I feel like that block, while outrageously athletic, is something you see not too rarely. Have you seen the Jordan block I'm referring to? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFPi95UEpog I'd love to see a similar moment from LeBron, but I'm not sure there is one because LeBron's not that I MUST BREAK YOU type of player.
.342 vs. 327... not seeing the significance there. I agree it's close, super close. But Jordan was better on the perimeter because he was a better and more versatile defender. I also think he was a better shooter, and in today's offense-uber-alles NBA, he would have put up Steph-like numbers. Also, in addition to what you mention about uncontested shots and creating his own shots, Jordan was a better free throw shooter.
1-2% does make a difference in 3 point percentage especially when you consider that the best ever shooters (Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, etc.) topped out at 40% or less than 6% points above Lebron -- I'll ignore Steph Curry because he's currently on a different level and we'll have to see if he can keep that up.
You say you "think" Jordan was a better shooter, but I'm sure given your stated profession that you see the problem with thoughts and opinions when they fly in the face of facts.
Now, I love me some Michael Jordan and he is still my favorite athlete of all time, but to say he would have put up Steph Curry numbers is one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen in quite some time. Jordan was never even the best 3 point shooter on his own team and rarely even top 2 (Hodges, Kerr, Paxon, Armstrong, etc.) -- and to say that he could have been equal to the best shooter ever if he just wanted to be is absurd. As an example, look at one of his best shooting performances -- that iconic game against Portland where Jordan hit 6 three pointers in a half -- that was a shock (even to him) and came becasue teams recognized that the only way to slow down Michael Jordan was to double / triple team him when he went to the basket and/or force him to shoot from the outside -- have not seen anybody apply that strategy to Curry or Ray Allen...
"to say that he could have been equal to the best shooter ever if he just wanted to be is absurd"
It's funny how that works. I was living in Chicago at the time and I had friends who were absolutely convinced that Michael Jordan could be an all-time-great baseball player if he wanted to.
It's nice when the universe gives you the opportunity to reality-check.
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(I'll tell you what he could have been, though...an all-time great team handball player. LeBron too, maybe even more so. He could have been the Jim Brown of handball.)