Indonacious

November 12th, 2017 at 5:58 PM ^

Basically in line with computer rankings such as S&P and sagarin after accounting for home field advantage. Personally, I’m surprised it’s not closer to 14 given our potential injuries and how we have played in big games, particularly on the road, recently.

J.

November 12th, 2017 at 6:06 PM ^

The fact that it's not should, perhaps, make you re-evaluate your position on thee way teams play in "big games."  The idea that certain players or teams are "clutch" is a myth perpetuated by people who -- like most humans -- persist in seeing patterns in random noise.

MSU isn't "clutch" because O'Neill dropped a punt snap.  UM isn't "non-clutch on the road" because officials sit on pass interference flags in Columbus.

The people who set the lines -- and the sharps, whose money drives the line in the first place -- are happy to take money from people who bet based upon clutchness.

(Injuries, on the other hand, are a valid concern -- but it's not like Wisconsin is a picture of health either).

J.

November 12th, 2017 at 9:28 PM ^

Clutch may exist, but it's not predictive.  Someone who has been "clutch" in the past is neither more nor less likely to be "clutch" in the future than someone who has not been "clutch."  Clutch is only meaningful after the fact -- and is still often subject to confirmation bias -- which means that it's useful neither for determining point spreads nor for wagering against them.

It's similar to luck.  Luck certainly exists, but I hope that nobody would attempt to build a football team by selecting the luckiest players they could find instead of the most skilled.  Someone who has been lucky in the past may be unlucky in the future.

On the other hand, Las Vegas has quite a few very tall monuments dedicated to people who believe that they are lucky. :-)

Don

November 13th, 2017 at 9:05 AM ^

"Someone who has been "clutch" in the past is neither more nor less likely to be "clutch" in the future than someone who has not been "clutch."

Good lord, if you seriously believe that Joe Montana was not more likely to be "clutch" than Scott Mitchell, then I have to question whether you've actually watched the game of football.

J.

November 13th, 2017 at 11:55 AM ^

I absolutely believe that, because I'm not saying what you're implying.

In a "clutch" situation, I would much rather have Joe Montana than Scott Mitchell, not because Montana had some ineffable ability to elevate his play under pressure, but because he was better.

The idea I'm trying to debunk is that some players somehow perform better -- relative to their own standards -- during high-pressure situations / in big games / etc.  I'm certainly not saying that all players are interchangeable.

Here's a better question.  In a big game, would you rather have Dan Marino (0 Super Bowl titles) or Mark Rypien (Super Bowl MVP)?  I'll take Marino every time, despite his reputation of "not being able to win the big game."

Indonacious

November 12th, 2017 at 7:04 PM ^

Well neither of us have a large enough sample size of harbaugh in big games at michigan to claim in either direction whether or not there are indeed any "patterns in random noise". I have a feeling you drastically over-simplified the discussion by reducing it to those couple plays as well ignoring the overall context about playcalling, etc. but alas, my general point is that I am surprised the line isn't a little more than the opening point of 10.

J.

November 12th, 2017 at 8:10 PM ^

You're right -- there's not enough sample size to know whether or not Michigan under Harbaugh is clutch.  But there is enough sample size to determine whether or not clutchness exists in general.  In other words -- if you look at the entire corpus, are there any "clutch" teams / players?  That is, teams or players who consistently perform better under whatever conditions you define as "clutch."  And the overwhelming evidence is that it does not; it's a product of confirmation bias more than anything else.  We tend to remember the successes or failures that fit the particular narrative.

Granted, much of the evidence comes from baseball, which has a much higher number of individual trials than football does.  However, the principles are the same.

People aren't robots, and it is certainly possible that a player's emotional state affects his play.  But I've yet to see a single study show that there's some way for a player to "psyche himself up" to play better -- and if he could, why wouldn't he do that all the time?

As for playcalling -- I don't even know how to respond to that.  Are you really suggesting that Harbaugh's staff somehow calls worse plays against better opponents?  Or, sequences them more poorly?  How would you differentiate that effect from better teams simply being more equipped to stop Michigan than worse opponents?

Was Penn State a big game last year?  Michigan won by 39, but everybody expected Penn State to be terrible.  How about Colorado?  Florida seemed like a big game at the time, but now Florida looks awful.  Was that a big game or not?

Finally -- not your comment, but the one above it -- Iowa has a good record at home against Top 5 teams recently because streaks happen.  Home field advantage is a real thing -- mostly due to the effect on officiating, but real nonetheless -- and Iowa normally has decent teams.  Suppose they were only 25% likely to win each of those 5 games.  The number of expected wins would be 1.25, and the probability of winning 4 or more would be about 1.5%.  Suppose there are 40 teams in college football that have the same 25% likelihood to win a home game against top 5 opponents.  It is more likely than not that one of those teams would go 4-1 or 5-0 over their last five.

Streaks exist, but they're not predictive.  Given those assumptions, the likelihood that Iowa wins their next home game against a Top 5 opponent is.. 25%.  Streak stats also tend to be cherry-picked.  Why Top 5?  If you go with Top 10, they're 4-3 over the same time period.  If you stick with Top 5 but go back to the beginning of Ferentz's career in 1999, they're 6-5.  The numbers are chosen to fit a narrative.

Tuebor

November 12th, 2017 at 9:32 PM ^

I disagree, a pbu sets us up 1st and ten from the wisconsin 20. The interception moved us back to midfield. I'm breathing much easier with the ball on the wisconsin 20 because we could seal the game with a fg. As i recall it was a razor thin margin that we kneeled out the clock.

Tuebor

November 12th, 2017 at 10:29 PM ^

Intentionally knocking it down doesnt have the same psychological effect? We won so that is all that matters, but the objectively better play is to knock it down not catch it. I'd expect the best corner to know that situation and execute accordingly.

Bo Glue

November 13th, 2017 at 11:47 AM ^

If you are 100% sure you can bat it down and 100% sure you can intercept, the choice is easy. But what if you are only 50% sure that swatting the ball will cause an incompletion? He could have batted the ball and ended up tipping it right into the receiver's hands, leading to a long touchdown instead of our posession. 

MgoHillbilly

November 13th, 2017 at 1:03 PM ^

Same principle if you're tied and there's about a minute left while your team is marching down the field. If the offense breaks a big play, why run it in for a touchdown when you can take a knee about a yard away from the endzone? I seem to see that every weekend and it makes me shake my head. These excellent athletes need to work on that kind of situational awareness because it can cost the team.

Tuebor

November 13th, 2017 at 10:11 PM ^

One difference is that scoring generally increases your chances of winning.  While in this scenario an interception costs your team roughly 30 yards of field position vs an incompletion on 4th down.  Losing 30 yards of field position generally reduces your chances of scoring, which in turn generally decreases your chances of winning.