Met a guy from the '69 and '70 team over the weekend
I debated whether to post this in the Griese - Gittleson thread, or separately, and decided on the latter.
I was sitting at a golf club on Friday while my son took lessons. Of course I was in my usual Michigan shirt and hat, and reading War as they Knew it. (I know, what a homer ... and it galls me that Rosenberg wrote a compelling book.)
Anyway a guy walks up to me and introduces himself, and tells me he was a player under Bo. So I asked what years and he said on the '69 and '70 team (he injured his knees and was unable to continue). Obviously I was impressed. Here was M history standing right in front of me.
We talked for quite a while. His opinion of the current situation is a shortage in talent, which still needs to be filled by recruiting.
I asked him about the transition to Bo, and whether (wins and losses aside) he thought the transition was similar. He said Bo was very tough. After the first six months Bo really opened up on them, yelling at them a lot.
Bo was also and very detailed. This guy was a center, and Bo would ask him every day how much he weighed. He said they had him eating eight poached eggs, two steaks, and all the bananas they could eat a day (this was before Gittleson), and then have him running laps at 285 lbs.
The other thing he said was Bo would scream at you on the sidelines if you made a mistake on the playing field.
To me, the interesting thing is we all have this altruistic vision of Bo, and people (the press especially) make such a big deal about Rich's behavior on the sidelines. In reality, Bo and Rich show a similar fiery sideline demeanor, and if anything, it sounds like Rich may be more family oriented than Bo was (at least in Bo's earlier years).
P.S. One line in the book that I love:
But Schembechler had built a reputation for shutting out the media. He kept a file on individual writers—if a guy wrote something Schembechler didn't like, Schembechler would stop talking to him.
I can think of a few Freep reporters who deserve that treatment. Rich needs to employ that Lloyd stare: Sharp or Rosenberg asks a question—Rich needs to say nothing and just stare at them like Lloyd for a second, and then ask for the next question ...
lloyd stare is classic... nothing better then a whole room of reporters going silent because someone just asked a stupid question that wasn't going to get answered...
"Now why would you ask a stupid question like that?"
from a guy who was in Bo's first recruiting class. He has so many cool stories, I'm sure I annoy the shit out of him, but I could listen to those tales all day long.
I knew a few players who quit the team because Bo was so tough. RR is a walk in the park compared to Bo. I think Bo was like Scotty Bowman, the players loved him after they won and after they left. I think he mellowed in his later years but he was a taskmaster that took no crap.
The players but players had a healthy fear of Bo. He was demanding.
That's basically what the guy said.
Interstingly the book says Bo's players loved him, while Woody's players feared Woody. (Of course Bo only screamed, Woody might beat you.)
Can you tell us the name of this former player? Not doubting the story - just curious.
Also, did he say anything on his current thoughts on the program, and whether he or any of his former teammates (if he keeps up) support RR?
So, the important question:
Does this former player think Will Campbell, JT Turner and Vlad Emilien are complete busts, or just partial busts?
stale
thanks for the post.
i see MANY parallels between Bo and RR. i think that guy is spot on about recruiting as well. Michigan has had trouble getting its usual talent pull from Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan with the reemergence of PSU, Tressel, and the transition between Lloyd and RR. Michigan needs to reestablish themselves in their typical recruiting grounds, improve the defense, win some more games and RR will be just fine.
on coaching demeanor - players need to know that RR cares about them. yelling and a fiery demeanor from a coach isn't a problem so long as the coach doesnt embarrass or break a young man down mentally.
The problem of Michigan's recruiting was not the transition between Lloyd and RR. The problem in 2005-07 was Lloyd's recruiting.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but Lloyd's last few years recruiting Ohio was deplorable. RR, on the other hand, has something to the order of 25 recruits from Ohio in the past 3 years. This year, Shaw, Roundtree, Omameh, Black, Turner and many others will contribute in some form to Michigan's success.
Ohio has always provided Michigan with a steady stream of talent despite Ohio State's prevalence (see, in recent history, Howard, Grbac, Zenkewicz, Woodson, et al...) Michigan's problems in 2008 and 2009 can partially be explained by a complete loss of its Ohio pipeline of talent. RR understands the importance of the state and has rightly and successfully made it a focus of recruiting.
And from here, I'll let Jamie Mac provide much better and detailed analysis if he so chooses.
JG-
I'm not saying those Ohio guys aren't good players, but not many of those guys had OSU offers. Like you said, guys like Omameh, Turner, Roundtree, etc will make OSU wish they had them on their roster, but Michigan can do an even better job in Ohio when they get going again.
I'm just wanting Michigan to turn the tides in these rivalries and get some respect back, because MSU, ND, and OSU are doing everything they can to beat Michigan for recruits. Recruiting in Michigan likely won't change. Future success depends on Michigan taking over their state every year, getting back into Penn like years past, and nabbing top Ohio recruits like always.
I agree with you, RR's lack of success in many areas could be traced back to a lot of what occurred in Lloyd's last few years. I think Rich has done a good job recruiting Ohio, but he will will do even better when Michigan becomes Michigan again in terms of on field success. The coaching transition by far isn't the main reason for our recruiting stuggles in the midwest, but if anything it has hurt Michigan in particular areas. The lack of on field success, losing to OSU, and the media drama surrounding the program has given a lot of ammo for opposing staffs to use against Michigan. Certainly recruits' parents have been concerned as a result.
Future success depends on Michigan taking over their state every year, getting back into Penn like years past, and nabbing top Ohio recruits like always.
No, future success does NOT depend on Michigan taking over their state every year. It never did. Ohio State will always get most of the kids they want in Ohio, that's a way of life. Same with Penn State in Pennsylvania. The key is for Michigan to get the best of Michigan that they need, to pick off a number of players from Ohio and Pennsylvania and Florida, and meld them into an unstoppable force.
Example: Justin Turner was the #6 player in Ohio in 2009. Fitz Toussaint was #10. Isaiah Bell was #33. Not the greatest haul, BUT:
In 2010, RR got the #13 (Jerald Robinson), #19 (Pace), #25 (Jibreel Black), #27 (Avery), #37, #38, #39 (Kinard, Williamson, Terry Talbott), #47 (other Talbott), and #51 (Davion Rogers). Also, Ryan, Vinogrit.
Combine that with the best players in 2009 in Michigan, Arizona and New Jersey, the best QB in Michigan in 2010, the third best CB in the country in 2010 (who happens to be from Pennsylvania).
Michigan is again getting a fine mix of local talent from in-state, Ohio and PA. That had stopped. Combine that with the national efforts, especially in Florida, and recruiting is just fine and getting better.
Apologize for not making it clear, I meant controlling their OWN state of Michigan, while bringing in their typical haul from Ohio and other various states.
Imagine if Michigan did a better job under Lloyd and somewhat under RR at landing the best Michigan kids these past few years.
Now, I'm aware of the Rojo, Gholston, and Perry situations, etc, but Michigan would be much better off had they kept some of the best guys in state recently. That is just the state of Michigan.
Fair point. Apologies - I didn't understand your point, but I agree with it.
I also think the record since the Rose Bowl loss to USC, has really hampered our ability to land some of the best recruits in positions of need. Obviously this is compunded by Rich's first two seasons (which in a big part were caused by Lloyd's recruiting misses, and the attrition in transition).
Now Lloyd's recruiting was probably hurt by the 2005 season, and the USC loss, the Horror, the loss to the Ducks and subsequent harping and rumors becoming reality that Lloyd was retiring.
Guess what - that's what happens when you transition coaching regimes. Added to that, since we hadn't encountered a real regime change since 1969, we may not have managed it the best.
So I wouldn't lay it all on Lloyd's plate, just like I don't lay it all in Rich's plate. The top recruits need a reason to believe. I sure hope we see that reason starting this fall.
And despite all that you mentioned, RR has still obtained three very highly regarded recruiting classes (all three top 20). Just wait until the machine begins to purr this fall.
Agree with both of you. I'm damn impressed with RR's recruiting despite the recent lack of on field success. Things are just going to get better for Michigan.
I don't have the historical roster data in front of me, but a 285-pounder in 1970, especially at center, would have been H-U-G-E. Did he really say 285? I think Dierdorf (at offensive tackle) weighed in the 250 range during his All-America season(s).
Anyway, this was also obviously interesting: "His opinion of the current situation is a shortage in talent, which still needs to be filled by recruiting." Most would agree that the problem is multifaceted, but it's nice to see an Old Blue leading with something reasonable.
He said 285. I think Bo had the roster sandbagged, but 285 was maybe the high bar set as a target. As I said, his memory was little hazy, which he applogized for.
sandbagged the roster when it came to weights,,, in the late 80's when i would go to games with my dad i always read the free program (how i miss it!!!) and i would look at the roster and there would be a bunch of O-linemen listed at 299lbs... i said to my dad "michigan doesn't have only player over 300lbs", his response was "bo will not list anyone at 300 or over 300", i didn't question it because i was 8 or 9 years old... but then i noticed it continued on with moeller and thats when it became harder to believe... there was no way that jon runyan and trezelle jenkins were under 300lbs... then when lloyd took over there was a sudden increase of players over 300lbs in the free programs...
Ha -- I always wondered why those guys all weighed 297/298/299. What you described would explain everything.
I'm not sure I completely get it, though. Did Bo want the enemy to think the Wolvie line was mostly puny weaklings? Did he think the other team might get overconfident and lose an edge? Just curious...
I am horrible with names, so as he walked off I was thinking damn, forgot his name already.
He was sure he was on the '69 team, but hazy on yhe other years (he said he played with Dan Dierdorf and Jim Brandstatter). So I went into Bentley, and looked for a two year center and came across Scott Hulke. When I blow up the picture, Hulke looks like the guy I was talking to. (If I see him again I will ask to confirm.)
His comment about recruiting needs was pretty much his thoughts on the current team. We talked about the need for linemen and middle linebackers. But it sounded like he felt youth and a shortage of talent was the root of our current issues. I would assume he supports Rich and the team based on the comment.
He didn't comment about former teammates or their views.
you should have asked him if he would do you the honor of pancaking you. Now that would have been an epic story - and maybe a cracked rib. maybe next time.
A flock of All-Big Ten and All-American players. By my very rough estimate, Bump Elliott left Bo with about future 10 All-Americans, and about 20 All-Big Ten players.
Jimmy Betts
Jim Brandstatter
Butch Carpenter
Larry Cipa
Garvie Craw
Tom Curtis
Thom Darden
Dan Deardorf
Glenn Doughty
Bruce Elliott
John Gabler
Henry Hill
Marty Huff
Randy Logan
Reggie McKenzie
Don Moorhead
Guy Murdoch
Pete Newell
Barry Peirson
Cecil Pryor
Bo Rather
Paul Staroba
Fritz Seyferth
Paul Seymour
Billy Taylor
Mike Taylor
I'm sure I've probably left out some names of some of the Bump Elliott recruits who were dominant Big Ten players. But you get the idea.
True fact; the game ball from the 1969 Michigan-Ohio State game went to Bump Elliott.
Dan Deardorf?
Oh dear, indeed.
Cipa a backup QB did't play much for Michigan but was good enough to play in the NFL for the Saints. Yes, Bump left Bo some serious talent.
You left off possibly the best player on the team - Jim Mandich. Also Mike Keller provided years of solid performance for the Wolves.
Mandich left off; my bad. In fact, his name was the first one I had thought of and he ought to be the first on that list because he was a Co-Captain. I knew I'd miss a name or two, and I did.
It's funny; we ran the ball so much at that time, and Glenn Doughty and Billy Taylor were so exciting, that I never remembered Mandich as a spectacular player for Michigan. I do remember him being a kind of a silent stud for us as a captain. A guy you just did not want to mess with. But the NFL scouts and the Dolphins sure knew what they were getting with Mandich. First-round draft pick, All-Pro and College Football Hall of Fame.
It's cool to hear stories of the past and see how they relate to today. Last year I found a guy selling his tickets due to the fact he couldn't make it back to the games much anymore. He told me during our conversation that he used to play at Michigan. When I asked for his name, for the check I was writing, it turns out that I was talking to Joe Dayton. Joe was the captain of the '68 team under Bump. Every game last year was much more special knowing I was sitting in his seats. He also seems like a great guy and I hope to actually meet him this year at the MSU game.
I've posted a link to this SI Archive article before, but it seems relevant here. The image that vast numbers of younger Michigan fans have of Bo is of this grandfatherly, laughing, charming curmudgeon who would regale you with stories of the old days, because he was long retired by the time they became fans. If Bo had started his Michigan career in today's media environment, Rosenberg and Snyder would have long since been declared persona non grata around the football team.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1084291/1/in…
If you think the media are tough cookies on coaches today, well yes, for most of the country that is probably true.
Where it's not true: Ann Arbor, Michigan.
In '69, The Michigan Daily wasn't nearly as friendly as it was now. It was at the epicenter of the counterculture movement, and football, like every other institution with its foundations still firmly rooted in older times, was coming in for the stern modern eye along with everything else.
The football team was also losing relevance. It wasn't two years removed from an almost-perfect season -- Michigan was well on its way toward Penn State-like mediocrity (good every few years, awful sometimes) while Ohio State, MSU and Notre Dame rode the end of their successful Southern recruiting invasions.
Go back and read the football articles from Bo's hiring to November '69 (I haven't been in the building in a few years but if you stop by the Student Pub building and ask, someone will likely let you peruse the archives -- they're in large hardbound books). They're rougher on him, generally, than your day-to-day stuff from the local papers today. Especially right after the loss to Michigan State. And this was the students' own paper, mind you.
What happened was The Game. Bo beat Ohio State in '69, and put the Wolverines back on track as perennial national champion contenders.
The lesson here: Winning is what made Bo palatable to the media of his day, not some giant shift in how media react. If RR returns Michigan to national prominence, even Sharp will have to find nice things to say.
Would be a coach you would love to have until the off-season workouts.
when Bo was still coach at Miami OH, before Michigan.
He said that Bo was the meanest son of a bitch he had ever met. Bo would grab facemasks and physically kick players routinely.
Any love for Bo back then was after you stopped playing for him (the guy I worked with certainly did not love Bo, not while playing for him and not even years later).
It was a different era then. Bo would not have survived in today's environment. Rich is a pussycat in comparison.