[LOCKED] OT - Mass Shooting leaves 14 Children and 1 Teacher dead at Texas Elementary School

Submitted by Nervous Bird on May 24th, 2022 at 7:43 PM

MOD EDIT - Before this gets too far down some divisive roads, I am going to lock it but leave the comments.

I will just say what I said last night on Twitter - when it comes to the issue of guns and access to them, if Columbine wasn't enough for you, if Sandy Hook was insufficient for you, if Parkland didn't move the needle for you, and all the ones in between and before, all the lives ended or altered and the families torn asunder, then you're simply going to need to be honest - you do not care, at least not enough that you would be willing to do something for the collective good. If you are in this category, please simply accept that about yourself. - LSA

This is the 2nd mass shooting with 10+ fatalities in ten days. I think the issue of gun rights/control transcends 'politics'. This is not about left or right, liberal or conservative, it's about people of all political persuasions demanding reasonable solutions so that our children, our elderly, can shop, go to school and church with more safety. We can protect gun rights and people simultaneously. As a start, maybe the country should outlaw and confiscate any magazine that has more than a 6 round capacity. 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/24/1101037902/texas-elementary-school-shooting-uvalde

maizerayz

May 25th, 2022 at 6:26 AM ^

Other countries are even way more poor and messed up than hours but then don't have anywhere near the mass shootings per capita.

Turns out if you can't get a glock or ar 15, you can't do nothing 99% of the time.

And this is coming from a guy who loves his glocks

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Goldenrod Mandude

May 25th, 2022 at 10:09 AM ^

I’m a parent of two high school kids. I spent 23 years in education as a teacher, administrator and a superintendent. And the gun laws in this country are fucking insane. They make zero sense, and my heart breaks every time I see something like this. And I’m sure I’ll see it again because the politicians in this country are cowards. They are not leaders they are feckless douche bags. This was my greatest nightmare as an educator. You can lock the doors, and you can have a resource officer on staff and all it will do is mitigate some of this crazy nonsense that will continue until we get our heads on straight and quit wrapping our arguments around the 2nd amendment - words from the 1700s that make no sense anymore.

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benzolamas

May 25th, 2022 at 9:37 AM ^

As an educator and a parent of a middle schooler, this news hits my core. With the frequency of these events increasing, I know it's a matter of time before one happens to my family or one that I know. It's a tragedy that could have a happy ending, should we choose it as a society. 

When this flashed on my phone, I collapsed to the ground in defeat, despair, and depression. I really had no words to express any feelings I was having at that time. It's hard to even type these words now without tears.

Every day I try to put aside fear and embrace hope when I teach. But I'm reminded of the danger when I have to unlock my classroom every time I go in and out. It's a safety measure to prevent ease of access. It wasn't that way years ago, but now it's just another part of existence.

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blueandmaizeballs

May 24th, 2022 at 8:33 PM ^

Where do the guns come from?   Right here made in the USA.   The guns killing Mexicans and latin americans all come from America.   There is one gun manufacturer in all of Mexico.  The makers of the guns sell them right to the people down their doing the shooting and killing.   We or I should say the lawmakers in bed with the gun makers is where it starts.  They get kickbacks to pass laws that help the gun makers.   We don't need all these high power rifles and shit like that.  You can have you guns to hunt but other than that no one else needs some high powered Ar-15 or any other gun capable of killing tons of people instantly.   This is so so so sad and infuriating that this happens now once a week here in the US.   Other countries don't have this problem like we do?  Not talking about third world but we need laws like Japan has.  No one should have a gun except special police force.  Not even regular cops in Japan carry guns.  Is it overboard maybe but we wouldn't have 18 kids dead today if we did this.   Guns really are stupid.   We don't need them to eat anymore but if someone really wants to hunt then make sure that gun is trackable at all times or something because this endless killing of children and humans is not going to get any better if we continue like this.  

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bronxblue

May 24th, 2022 at 9:48 PM ^

You know we're not talking about 18 kids and 3 teachers committing suicide in a classroom, right?  This is such a weird comment to make here - suicide and mental health issues are obviously pressing in a number of countries but I have no idea what you're arguing here.  

A better comparison would be that the homicide rate (not just gun deaths but all murders) in the US is around 5 people/100k and in Japan it's 0.26/100k.  

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WindyCityBlue

May 24th, 2022 at 10:04 PM ^

Then why bring Japan into the discussion? It’s a bit of a red herring in my opinion. Suicide rates in the US and Japan are roughly the same. We primarily use guns for suicide, and Japan primary uses hanging and poisoning for suicide. 
 

My point is that these types of events, whether homicide or suicide, are complex events that have multi-faceted causes.  When tragic events like this happen, many like to look at guns, but I’m not so sure the gun itself it the root cause in all this. I prefer to try and analyze why the perp came to conclusion that he/she wanted to do harm to his/her fellow human. What confluence of factors lead them to commit such a violent act? Is it undiagnosed or untreated mental health? Is it being bullied? Is it video games? Does the gun itself cause the perp to want to harm people?  (Note: these are rhetorical questions - no need to answer). 

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BostonWolverine

May 24th, 2022 at 10:21 PM ^

Name a non-firearm that would enable this person to do as much damage as he was able to—and don't give me the "run a car into a crowd of people but people are still licensed to drive" nonsense. 

This isn't about the desire to harm. It's the tool that enables someone's ability to do satisfy that desire en masse. It's about scale, mitigation techniques, etc. Not merely "desire to do harm." 

Not only that, but I also want to figure out what causes someone's desire to harm, as well as what drives them to act on it. But here's the thing: You act like these two initiatives are mutually exclusive. SURELY we, as a country with as many researchers as we have can spare a few that can help us look at TWO WHOLE THINGS AT ONCE, no? 

Here's what I think: Finding out what causes the desire to commit violence, why and how it manifests, etc. — that's gonna take a while. Years, probably. Let's get that research going. In the meantime, let's make it a little harder for goddamn psychopaths to walk into schools and churches and destroy people. 

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gustave ferbert

May 24th, 2022 at 10:34 PM ^

The deadliest school massacre in American history happened here in Michigan (Bath).  38 children were killed when Andrew Kehoe planted a bomb in the school.  It would have been worse, but his second bomb didn't go off.  

Murderers are going to kill.  It doesn't matter that they have access to assault weapons or not.  

You are right though, the behavior needs to be studied and solutions need to be created to prevent these things from happening. 

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BostonWolverine

May 25th, 2022 at 4:30 AM ^

Here's the thing: making those bombs was illegal. People have an extra layer of protection from bombings because of that. If authorities get wind of a bomb threat, they investigate it. Unfortunately, Kehoe managed to make them anyway—which is a tragedy. But there's no such thing as investigating a "gun threat", because people can just...have them. 

If you're talking about bombings, you HAVE to understand that making it harder for people to access tools of destruction makes it harder to kill people. 

 

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Lakeyale13

May 25th, 2022 at 7:45 AM ^

Here is the unfortunate fact, anything you make illegal can still be acquired.  I can’t think of anything considered “illegal” to have that I couldn’t get in a week or less.  If you have the cash and the desire you can obtain virtually anything.  It is a bit naive to think outlawing guns is the solution.  It may be a starting place, but it is far far far from a solution. 
 

Case in point, this scum of the Earth brought a weapon into a “Gun Free Zone” (A school).  It is illegal to bring guns into schools, stadiums, movie theaters, malls, etc.  The vast majority of mass shootings happen in “Gun Free Zones”, where it is illegal to carry a weapon. Just because it’s illegal doesn’t stop them from carrying out their crime.  They know no one has a gun to stop them in such places. 

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Lakeyale13

May 25th, 2022 at 9:31 AM ^

 Unfortunately, if a deranged sociopath is hell bent on carrying out such a crime, making guns illegal won't stop him / her.  Even if he / she couldn't get a firearm, that isn't going to resolve his / her sociopathic tendencies or desires.  They will still most likely carry out an action of terror with another mechanism (bomb, car, etc).  Banning guns would perhaps lower the casualty number, but almost certainly isn't going to convince someone so deranged to not carry out an action of violence.  It is naive to think such a person would drop their homicidal fantasy and not act on it just because getting a gun was now illegal or impossible.  

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WindyCityBlue

May 24th, 2022 at 10:38 PM ^

Why is the car example considered non sense? It’s a rather fresh issue for people in my area since a racist asshat ran over bunch of people at a Christmas parade about 6 months ago, killing 5, in a town about an hour from me.  (Not to mention over 80 people killed in Nice by maniac running over people during a festival). 
 

Either way, much love and respect to you my friend. I have no problem if you want to approach it by looking at the gun. I used to approach it that way as well. I just prefer these days to try and understand the human who is doing the harm. To me, that is more meaningful and will bear more fruit in stopping these senseless acts of violence. 

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BostonWolverine

May 25th, 2022 at 3:57 AM ^

The reason the car example is nonsense is as follows: A car's primary use is transportation. If someone uses a car to plow through a crowd, we all agree that's a horrible thing. But we also all agree that's not how a car is supposed to be used. 

A gun's primary use is putting holes in things. Unfortunately, in the instance of mass shootings, the guns work just as they're intended to.

Additionally - in the instance of the Texas shooter: he couldn't have done what he did yesterday with a car or a van. Gone into a school and killed people. His murders got easier because he had a gun.

Unless/until we can successfully diagnose/treat homicidal behavior in specific individuals BEFORE they go on killing sprees, we should probably consider making it harder for them to go on killing sprees. 

In a vacuum, all things being equal, if you restrict gun access, you will prevent more deaths-by-psychopath than if you restrict car access. And when the response is "psychopaths will find a way to be psychopaths", the answer is, "Yeah - but it's still harder without the guns."

Just like I'm sure you'd acknowledge that the MASSIVE amount of border protection doesn't stop all smuggling of drugs into the U.S., you'd probably agree that it's good to make it harder to smuggle drugs, right? 

Here's the other thing: you have to be open to the idea that a culture of gun fetishization could very well be part of what causes homicidal behavior. I don't know if it is, but what do we do if research indicates it? 

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CFraser

May 25th, 2022 at 12:08 AM ^

I did route clearance in combat so maybe I’m an outlier but it’d be easier for me to make a large bomb than anything and that would be devastating. Point is that I have a sound enough mind to not go do that. The real problem here is the social issue of mass murder. Sure we should restrict access to firearms more and figure this out; it’s a real issue. But the real problem here is the pandemic of homicidal anti-social behavior. Identifying these people should be the highest priority. I agree we need better handle on guns though.

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BostonWolverine

May 25th, 2022 at 4:20 AM ^

But to your point about bombs, we've all decided that making a bomb is illegal. Possession of bomb making materials? Illegal. We've realized that psychopaths can use bombs to kill lots of people, and so we restrict access to the stuff people use to create them. 

The behavior needs to be addressed. Again: not mutually exclusive. Let's do all of it.

Here are my suggestions:

1) Impanel a research board. Leaders in psychology, sociology, epidemiology, etc. get together to design a study on what causes homicidal tendencies and anti-social behavior. This includes what causes radicalization and foments domestic terrorism. Now - this is the only item on this list that specifically addresses THIS part. There's a reason for that. This research would develop specific action items for what actions we should take. Since I don't know what those actions would be, I'm not going to speculate. 

2) Increase access to mental health treatment across the board. This will never be a bad thing. 

3) Assign appropriate priority to preventing domestic terrorism in law enforcement, including efforts to stop radicalization and root out white supremacy. 

4) This means reforming police units, given the comparatively high occurrence of white supremacists within police departments.

5) Require background checks and psychological evaluation when applying for gun licenses. 

6) Eliminate all loopholes that allow for transfer of guns outside of regulated licensing/selling procedures. 

7) This one I haven't fully thought through, but I'm getting creative. Have gun manufacturers install computer chips with fingerprint access on guns so only those who are licensed to use it can use it. It worked with iPhones. (The government would not have access to these fingerprints)

8) Re-write the Second Amendment. It was conceived when the types of firearms we have access to now were only a pipe dream. It's time to update it to work with modern times. In order to keep it fair, I would assign either a bipartisan or nonpartisan committee to do it. 

 

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Lakeyale13

May 25th, 2022 at 7:51 AM ^

Since when has making anything “illegal” make it more difficult to get in the USA.  In 24 hours I could buy an illegal firearm, get a hooker, buy a stolen car, purchase any number of illegal street drugs, etc.  I think there is ample evidence that making something illegal in the US doesn’t make it very difficult to get, you just get consequences if you are caught.  

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4th phase

May 25th, 2022 at 9:42 AM ^

By your logic then, nothing should be illegal since its theoretically possible for anyone to break the law at any time. I can walk into a store and walk out with a bunch of merchandise, it's not difficult, there are just consequences if I get caught....

The point of a law isn't to make something impossible, it is to disincentivize behavior.

Making things illegal inherently provides barriers. Sure you can buy those illegal drugs, but can you get them faster and with less effort than I can buy some steaks from the store? I doubt it.

 

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Lakeyale13

May 25th, 2022 at 9:50 AM ^

No its not my logic, I'm countering the logic most are putting forth here, which is...."Ban guns and these tragedies will stop".  Clearly it won't.   We need to come up with better solutions than "banning guns".  

In all sincerity, I would give up all my rights to guns or to ever own guns if it would solve the problem.  It may be a good starting point to ban guns, but it is hardly the answer to the problem.  The problem is certainly nuanced and going to require several components to solve, most importantly, mental health evaluation and treatment for such sociopaths.  

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Angry-Dad

May 25th, 2022 at 9:57 AM ^

Making things illegal does make them harder to acquire.  If I want to buy cocaine I can find it, but I have to put in an effort to find it.  If I could buy it at Walgreens almost zero effort.  The goal of making things illegal is not necessarily the elimination (people will find a way) it is to reduce and mitigate who and where you can get these items.  If this kid could not buy these guns legally on his 18th birthday does he still go into a school a few days later and kill 21 (and counting) people?  That can't be answered with certainty but it would have been harder for him to acquire the weapons.

This is a complex issue but it is not an all or nothing solution.  The idea that "there is nothing you can do to stop crazy people" is a losing mentality.  Higher age restrictions on ownership, limiting magazine capacity, longer periods of time to conduct background checks for prior crimes and mental health concerns, closing the gun show loop hole, etc.  These are all things that most Americans support but we have a cowardly group of paid for senators that are terrified of losing their seat and having to actually work for a living.  

They can pass fake outrage bills on CRT and Transgender but they just can't do anything on helping to restrict people's ability to kill mass groups of individuals by obtaining weapons designed to kill mass groups of individuals.  I call bullshit.

If this comes off as indignant it is because I am indignant.  This is so sad and embarrassing.  This country has a serious issue with guns that needs to be addressed, doing nothing, and throwing our hands up is a cope out.

 

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dickdastardly

May 25th, 2022 at 6:07 AM ^

Guns in the wrong hands is a bad recipe. So is a bow and arrow, a car, a knife...etc. The issue isn't what inanimate object killed innocent people. It's the person who uses them. That's where we need to focus our attention. How many laws did this kid break? Laws do not stop evil people from doing evil. Someone brought up Mexico. Mexico has some very restrictive gun laws yet guns dominate the NarcoState south of us. 

 

For reference, recent events of mass murder without a gun:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/20-injured-suv-drives-wisconsin-holiday-parade-route-rcna6292

https://www.axios.com/2021/10/13/bow-arrow-attack-norway

 

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rice4114

May 25th, 2022 at 1:21 AM ^

The car wasnt the problem for road deaths. But sure fucking enough seatbelts and airbags were brought on to save lives. And not one person fought  them because there was no anti seat belt lobby. You guys suckle from a gun tit that doesnt even produce for you. The tragedy is the love affair with a killing machine. When tragedy strikes man your stations and save our high capacity rounds fellas! I reach for my kids and this tool called a gun be damned if its got emotional ties for you.

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bronxblue

May 25th, 2022 at 8:45 AM ^

Fine, then for the first step in the experiment to determine the root cause of the voluminous violent deaths in this country why don't we start making it harder for people to get ahold of firearms. 

Also, I'm absolutely done with the rationalizations people trot out all of a sudden when it means their precious guns may be in danger.  We've made it harder for people to get mental health support, protection from bullies (fucking Texas basically outlawed openly being recognized as LGBTQ), etc. as we've made it much easier to get ahold of a gun.  So save me this line of "we need to get to the root cause" argument when it's pretty clear we know why so many people die from being shot in this country and we don't want to acknowledge it.

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mackbru

May 24th, 2022 at 8:58 PM ^

No FIRST WORLD country has anything like this level of gun violence and mass shootings because they aren't slaves to gun companies who bankroll Republicans, who shamelessly advocate that regular folks should have weapons of war. It's a moral stain unlike any other, and there's no alternative explanation. And it will just keep getting worse until there's gun control -- like there is in every other peer country. 

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Wendyk5

May 25th, 2022 at 9:27 AM ^

The trajectory of unfettered gun ownership has been pushed by the GOP over the past 50 or so years. They used to support some degree of gun control, but the NRA and Ronald Reagan pushed that aside. In 2008, the Heller decision reshaped the 2nd Amendment from an idea about citizens, in a militia, protecting themselves against a tyrannical government, to an individual rights manifesto about gun ownership. An individual's absolute right to own a gun has been a fairly recent development. I wish gun owners would acknowledge the history here. The moral gymnastics required to exonerate guns themselves in all these gun crimes is pretty breathtaking. 

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Lakeyale13

May 25th, 2022 at 9:39 AM ^

I have a degree in history, and focussed particularly on American History.  You are completely and 100% wrong.  You may not like it, I may not like it, but the Founding Fathers absolutely positively put in the 2nd Amendment so the populace would be armed to such a degree, that if they needed to overthrow a tyrannical government, they would have the resources to do so.  

Colonial militias were made up of regular people.  Professional soldiers didn't exist in the vast majority of cases in the Colonies.  Thus, that is the context of the 2nd Amendment...that everyday people would be armed to the extent that their militia could act effectively militarily against the government.  Period.

You can argue that the purpose for the 2nd amendment is outdated and no longer needed (fair enough point), but you are incorrect and on the wrong side of history to say that the 2nd Amendment wasn't for the sole purpose of the populace to be armed so they could overthrow tyranny (and imagine how many people and how many weapons need to be armed and distributed to overthrow a tyrannical government!?).  That was absolutely the intentions that the Founding Father's had for the 2nd Amendment.  Hell, Jefferson believed the people should through a Revolution every 50 years or so.

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Angry-Dad

May 25th, 2022 at 10:15 AM ^

I know this can be a divisive issue, but you are being disingenuous if you are arguing that Republicans are not blocking common sense gun control measures that polling shows the vast majority of Americans support.  There is one political party that is interested in governance and one that is interested in grievance and obstruction.  Not saying this has always been the case, also not saying it always will be the case but to argue differently on this issue in not a good faith argument.

I get the sarcasm of your post, and no one is actually saying that republicans make people buy assault weapons, but everyone knows that the gun lobby uses fear and democrat's political victories to push gun sales.  It is easy to track.  Mass shootings raise gun sales.  Democrats winning elections push gun sales.  This is by design by some evil greedy folks. 

I recommend reading Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America: Busse, Ryan: 9781541768734: Books (amazon.com)

Really outlines the weight this industry has on current political discourse.

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