Friday night discussion: Sam Webb & John U Bacon talk on if Michigan can be elite
Hey all.
The weather is shite, I can't go out, and I'm bored. So I thought I'd start a friendly Friday night convo regarding an interesting discussion Webb and Bacon had the WTKA podcast this morning.
The question: can Michigan become elite by using the "Michigan approach" in that we focus our recruiting objectives on kids that have high character, who will graduate with minimal academic risk? Basically, staying away from the rampant improper recruiting approaches (i.e. paying players, etc) that is utilized by just about every major program today.
Webb: Believes we can, but we need to get innovative with our recruiting approach and coaching style. Getting anywhere near a top 5 class would be a rarity going forward still.
Bacon: Not anymore. As for 2016, he said "absolutely yes", but not anymore. He went so far as to say that we'll never be Alabama/Clemson, and we may only beat OSU once every 7 years, but as long we do it the "Michigan way", most fans will ok with that. (Yikes!)
Me: We can be elite, but we have to start using the same recruiting practices as Alabama/OSU/Georgia. If we decide not to, then the slow decline of Michigan football will continue. Therefore, this next hire might be the most important hire in the history of Michigan football.
Mgoblog. What say you?
December 11th, 2020 at 8:05 PM ^
What is the Michigan way that Bacon speaks of? While I haven’t conducted a thorough analysis of every program, I’ve followed the off-field issues enough to know we’ve had plenty of bad apples in the fold at least over the last decade. Let’s stop pretending the program is all defenders of virtue and gentlemen scholars. And if he’s referring to paying the players, is there a certainty that isn’t happening, or are we patting ourselves on the back because we aren’t doing it as blatantly as the Clemsons and Bamas?
December 11th, 2020 at 8:19 PM ^
I think it's the idea of selling the University and all it has to offer. No salesmanship. No negative recruiting.
I think it's a noble idea, and would probably keep us competitive with Penn St, Wisconsin, ND, etc. But it won't get us to orbit where OSU resides.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:35 PM ^
So there’s no salesmanship involved in selling the university? It seems to me selling is inherent to recruiting, no? But let’s say that’s it. Everybody sells what their university offers. That’s just recruiting. Surely, we cannot boil down the Michigan Way to not negative recruiting, right? That cannot be what’s keeping us from being elite.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:05 PM ^
Bacon is a traitor. He's a close 2nd behind Mattison.
Defund John U Bacon.
Go Blue.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:36 PM ^
Mattison isn't. I was pissed too.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:12 PM ^
Michigan on it's best day is Iowa (7-9 wins + occassional upsets/losses)...we'll never be Alabama/Clemson/OSU because Michigan does not have the will or drive to be a football factory. We are still a perennial student athletic school without an eye of the tiger hunger for NCs.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:22 PM ^
I can't see us ever being elite again as long as we have to play by the rules and O$U is allowed to cheat. I see they just got a commitment for a 5 star and number 1 WR in the nation. That's 3 years in a row they have landed the number 1 WR in the nation. All 5 stars.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:11 PM ^
I see that they have the number 2 receiver committed for 2022 so at least that streak will finally be over soon
December 11th, 2020 at 9:32 PM ^
Just because a team kicks the crap out of you every year doesn't mean they cheat. I love how some of you clowns throw in there that OSU/Alabama/Clemson cheat - likes its a given and we all are in agreement. BS. If Ohio State is cheating, where is it? Where are they paying players? THe fact is that Michigan, LIKE EVERY OTHER BIG TIME FOOTBALL SCHOOL, lowers it standards all the time to admit football players. If that's what cheating is, you're doing it too - and not very successfully I might add.
You've got the largest football stadium in the country - don't think for a minute you're not just as much a football factory as every other big time program. In the 1990s when UM was consistently good, no fans were more obnoxious about being elite in football. Now that you suck at football consistently, you pivot into the University of Chicago bit about how college football is corrupt and the only reason you can't win is because you won't compromise your elite standards. That is pathetic excuse making. Michigan is one of the top revenue generators in college football, consistently recruits top 20 classes and regularly admits players who wouldn't have a chance in hell in being admitted on their academics alone. Trust me, your poop stinks just like everyone else's.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:43 PM ^
LOL
What happened to the last two OSU coaches? Obvious troll please ban.
December 12th, 2020 at 12:13 AM ^
So, you came over from 11 Warriors not just to troll, but also to sniff our butts.
Interesting, but also more than just a little strange...
December 13th, 2020 at 9:14 AM ^
Just because a team kicks the crap out of you every year doesn't mean they cheat.
What are you 2 years old? Do you have no memory of life prior to 2018? So, just because a team kicks the crap out of you 2 years in a row that means "every year"? Let's take a look at some of these beatings.
- 2017: 31-20
- 2016: 30-27
- 2013: 42-41
- 2012: 26-21
- 2011: A Michigan win!
- 2009: 21-10
- 2007: 14-3
- 2006: 42-39
- 2005: 25-21
- 2004: 37-21
- 2003: A Michigan win!
- 2002: 14-9
- 2001: 26-20
- 2000: A Michigan win!
I love how some of you clowns throw in there that OSU/Alabama/Clemson cheat - likes its a given and we all are in agreement. BS.
I've always been in the camp that the Meyer era didn't pay players. If they did, Parsons would have been at OSU. That said, they obviously had problems before that where OSU got dealt sanctions. But, I do think it's fairly accepted the south pays guys a bit more than the north, particularly the Saban tree (Saban, Smart, Fisher, Pruitt, etc.).
THe fact is that Michigan, LIKE EVERY OTHER BIG TIME FOOTBALL SCHOOL, lowers it standards all the time to admit football players.
They do lower standards for football players. But, they also don't lower it as much as some and there are tons of examples of this. They also tend to recruit a different type of guy. More often than not the academic oriented guys tend to look at UM, ND, Sanford, etc.
In the 1990s when UM was consistently good, no fans were more obnoxious about being elite in football. Now that you suck at football consistently,
Either you're not very smart or you're very young, or both. UM in the 90s essentially has the same record under Carr & Moellar as they have under JH except this one crazy Covid year...9-4. The only difference is UM doesn't beat OSU any longer. UM is what they've always been. OSU is better. And, once conference alignment shifted to divisions UM can't win the B1G without beating OSU and winning their division. Before you could share B1G titles or there would be years when OSU would lose more than one conference game. That never happens any longer. So, UM is the same, OSU is better, and conference alignment changed.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:22 PM ^
Why is Harbaugh still the coach? Someone explain this to me...
December 11th, 2020 at 8:23 PM ^
Probably because we can't do any better.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:23 PM ^
Elite? How about beating Sparty, Wisconsin, and Indiana.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:25 PM ^
No. We cannot be elite without being willing to look at how we define excellence. Is it character? Is it a program that follows the letter of the law? NIL could help save us some, but if we don’t admit that excellence is winning conference championships and an occasional spot in the CFP then we are kidding ourselves.
Michigan should commit to being elite. It is more an important than an outdated version of morality that only feels relevant to a bygone generation clutching at a revisionist past.
It is time to get back to being Michigan by being innovative, leading from the front, and and building a program that other schools attempt to emulate.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:34 PM ^
Bacon put himself above program with his books. And he just sandbagged it.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:37 PM ^
I'd rather they discuss how they get programs to follow the god damned rules.
December 11th, 2020 at 8:47 PM ^
I hate this horseshit Michigan Man/Way thing. It is the most pretentious load of crock ever. After reading Endzone to glean what the hell has happened, I realized, well, here it is right here: sure, Brandon was awful and so was Rodriguez/Hoke, but the real issue is this Baconian sacrifice-yourself-for-the-University crap. THIS UNIVERSITY EXPLOITS FOOTBALL ATHLETES FOR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY YEAR! FULL STOP! And most of us (myself included) who consume what are predominantly black bodies for our entertainment are culpable. It is well past time to pay our athletes! Whether it is over or under the table, who gives a damn? As far as I am concerned, Ohio State, Clemson, and Alabama are morally superior institutions and have been for a long time. It is completely anachronistic to structure a modern college football program along the lines of the Michigan Man of the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's when espn, the Jordan Brand, and the Big Ten Network pour in tens of millions of dollars every year that the players never see. It is high time for an NFL-style, players-focussed program, and this not because winning is everything, but because, given that WE ALL have made this sport into celebrity entertainment through media like this very blog, it is the right thing to do!
December 11th, 2020 at 8:53 PM ^
Hold onto Michigan values, alumni over fans
December 11th, 2020 at 9:02 PM ^
Clemson from 1994-2010 17 seasons lost 88 games that’s an average of slight more then 5 losses a year and I’ll bet they thought they would never get back to elite status but with the right hire boom. I wouldn’t say never, just have to make the right hire.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:02 PM ^
It is not possible for us to use the same recruiting tactics as Bama and OSU because we can’t offer the same track record of developing player for the next level and competing for championships. Let’s just own it and accept it instead of making excuses. I still think we should be able to win one out of every 5 games against OSU though
December 12th, 2020 at 3:09 AM ^
You're contradicting yourself there.
That's what people tend to do when they're super frustrated by the facts of a situation that doesn't get them what they wanted - but they still think they can rationalize how they should have it anyway!
December 11th, 2020 at 9:02 PM ^
We absolutely can be elite. Any blue blood can. Once you start winning, recruiting takes care of itself. Look at Clemson, who would have thought 10 years ago that they'd be where they are now? I don't want to hear about cheating. Alabama, LSU, Florida, Auburn, Oregon, and for most part still USC were elite, so bag men wouldn't be pulling that many elite guys to Clemson, and they weren't. Clemson's classes weren't what they are now. The problem is in the time of instant gratification there's no such thing as building anymore. I'm not defending Harbaugh either. Part of the building process is showing steady improvement. The difference, in all of this, is Dabo is a good head coach with a good staff who develops his players well. That's all we need to do is start developing better. We go 11-1 two years in a row and our recruiting starts to take care of itself. Look at our 2015 and 2016 seasons and the 2017 recruiting class they led to. A composite .9120, that is the level OSU had been at before those .9400+ classes. We just have to start developing players better and winning more. That's it.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:29 PM ^
I agree and disagree. We've had three straight coaches (four if you include Lloyd's last few years) who underperformed and underdeveloped the team with the resources and players we had. Just getting a coach and staff that take care of the penalty issues, the positional gaps in recruiting, the punting on fourth and short around the fifty-yard line, etc will get us up to our ceiling (as others have argued). All that is step one. However, what you call cheating I call exploitation, and that is not a Michigan problem as much as an NCAA problem. The Bamas and Bucknuts of the world have just stopped caring about the NCAA's antiquated rules in this regard and the NCAA itself cares less and less (so a change will come eventually). I just want us to lose this utterly pretentious "but we don't cheat" mantra. Correct, we exploit!
December 12th, 2020 at 3:16 AM ^
I made this same comparison in another reply, but it bears repeating - Michigan would end up "cheating" as well as Hugh Freeze at Ol Miss, and then stoll being mediocre, but losing the high ground it still clings to!
The situation is positively fraught!
December 12th, 2020 at 7:39 AM ^
That we may remain mediocre could very well be true. All I'm arguing is that we are not in fact clinging to the "high ground" right now. We are clinging to the low ground: we don't "cheat," we exploit! This isn't popular to say, but unless we live in a Kantian universe, we are morally behind Ohio State and Clemson!
December 12th, 2020 at 8:02 AM ^
Maybe I didn't explain well enough. When I said that I don't want to hear about cheating, what I meant was I don't think we NEED to cheat. There's no way you will ever convince me that every time we lose out on an elite guy that bag men is the only possible reason. As reported before (I forget who made the diary) it is a laughable over simplification of what really happened and a symptom of this pathetic Michigan arrogance. I simultaneously was saying that I don't think Clemson was "cheating" all that much because they couldn't. Elite athletes wanted to go to the schools I mentioned (who were, perhaps, also "cheating") rather than Clemson. To comment on the exploitation comment, I'm not sure I agree or disagree. I do agree that these athletic departments make beaucoup bucks off these kids. But I also think Michigan harping on school performance isn't that bad of a deal. The amount of players that go broke within 2 years of retirement from the NFL has been discussed quite a bit and Michigan puts kids in a situation where they don't have to worry about that. So while we may exploit them while they are with us, we leave them with something so they can be in good financial standing the rest of their lives. Other programs that "cheat" may be compensating them while they are with them, but what are the kids left with if they aren't told that school is important too? "Hey, if you win us national championships/conference titles you will get this. But after you run out of eligibility and/or you're drafted, you're on your own kid." Read eligibility as usefulness. Once they are drafted they can still use them saying to new recruits "Look what we can do for you. See all these NFL players, we made that possible here". Then when the player flames out of the league they stop using them as an example and just move on to the next crop of draftees. So who are the ones exploiting these kids? Maybe my stance is also a symptom of Michigan arrogance...
December 12th, 2020 at 11:12 AM ^
You make a fair response. I don't think, however, the description "cheating" carries much meaning in this specific respect (paying players). That's really all I'm trying to challenge. Athletes are basically unpaid, campus employees (or if you want to count their scholarships, underpaid employees vis a vis the revenue their physical labor brings in). The axe you seem to be grinding challenges whether we actually lose many recruits to other teams' bagmen. I have no idea if we do or don't, but I don't think that is all that relevant to the point I am making. I'm not laying out a "cheating" vs "exploiting" dichotomy in order to prescribe a new strategy for winning more. I'm trying to challenge the description, "student-athlete," because it does not sufficiently capture their role within the sports entertainment industry. Football playres should be allowed to market themselves, they should be able to unionize and collectively bargain, and they should be able to tailor their academic pursuits/expectations commensurate with the field/trade they wish to pursue, particularly if that trade is sports entertainment (business, marketing, sports medicine, coaching, etc). We can have a players-focused program that prepares athletes for a future in sports entertainment while also compensating them for their current work in that field, which the University so clearly benefits from. It's not a zero-sum game between academic seriousness (or future security) and current compensation. We can do both. And until we start recognizing Michigan Football for what it is as a phenomenon of sports entertainment (no, it's not just that, but it is--in the 21st century--primarily that), then all this hand-wringing about "cheating" carries little meaning. Per your response, Michigan could potentially lead the way with a modern players-focussed program, but that won't happen with antiquated "Michigan Man" nostalgia shaping how we conceive student athletics.
December 12th, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
Ok, so you're having a different conversation than the OP intended if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm speaking strictly about the question "can we be elite?". For what it's worth, I agree with you that athletes should be able to make money off themselves. I'm not sure how much I agree because I constantly go back and forth on the matter as far as how this model should play out. The thing giving me pause is there are only a certain few athletic departments who can afford anything at all. And I would hate to see other sports cut just so football or basketball players can be paid. I realize that making money off of themselves means more than being a paid employee, it's just that I fear that's where it would end up. If players are paid and/or they start a union there's always going to be a faction that wants more and more; especially when the schools do make money off of football or basketball. The fact that that money goes to support other athletes wouldn't set well with some who say "I put my blood sweat and tears into this, why should women's gymnastics benefit?" It's a slippery slope and one definitely worth having. Appreciate the thoughtful discussion, it's a nice change from the usual scenery here.
*Edit* Maybe I'm reading too much into this but I was encouraged. I just listened to the podcast this morning and when talking about delaying the talks between Harbaugh and Manuel, Bacon mentioned how keeping recruits hanging was a bad look. Sam countered with the idea that they weren't being lied to, just told the facts and mentions some kids who chose to delay their signing. First he says Jennings is delaying until February. That got me thinking. Jennings gets courted by Maryland, takes all his Michigan stuff off his twitter and then delays? Everybody was so sure he was gone. If that's true why not just announce during the early signing period? Of course he could change his mind but still. Also, Sam says the only one who it really sucks for is Xavier Worthy who wants to to enroll early. Sam said it sounds like the reticence coming from the Worthy camp has been lessened as of late because he was comforted by something he heard from Michigan. Couple that with the tweet from Markus Allen and it leads me to believe Harbaugh may be signing an extension; which truly would break the internet. Maybe I'm dead wrong, and if I am, oh well. But it's certainly noteWorthy.
December 12th, 2020 at 3:00 PM ^
Interesting. Yeah, if Harbs does come back, I still think he'll have a steep, uphill battle to climb in changing perceptions. That's why a fresh start with a new coach would be best. Rodriguez and Hoke were certainly undermined by the people over them as well as their own coaching deficiencies. I think we got things in a better place with Harbaugh and Manuel, and I really liked Harbaugh's early attempts to boost the profile of Michigan in recruits' minds: satellite camps, team trips to Europe/South Africa, switching to Jordan Brand, etc. It was creative and aggressive. Had he not suffered some unlucky breaks with the MSU punt block and OSU spot games, I think he might have enjoyed some sustained momentum and respect (even for satellite camps and trips to Europe, which haven't worn well). In the end, though, I think he just can't get out of his own way. He gets way too deep into his own personal competition with other coaches, he absolutely does play favorites with his players, and he really does make some serious, head-scratching decisions on the sidelines. Anyway, College Football feels like it's in that transition the NBA was in about 5-7 years ago when the analytics pointed to a 40% 3-point FG percentage as the thing of the future. The game, both on the field with offensive strategy and off the field with recruiting, is evolving quicker than Harbaugh seems able to do. A young, new coach with our current AD would be worth the gamble.
December 12th, 2020 at 3:30 PM ^
I shouldn't have neglected to say that by encouraging, I wasn't endorsing Harbaugh so much as I was encouraged by positive news regarding Worthy. As far as Harbaugh being back, I've resigned myself to not caring what happens. Either thing we do is a risk so I wouldn't be excited/upset either way. As far as perception goes, the thing about perception is it can change very quickly. We just have to win, like I was saying. Am I holding my breath that it all comes together for Harbaugh next year? Absolutely not. Can it happen? Absolutely, it's happened before. I just know that I'm not the one choosing the coach and I love Michigan. So whoever is the coach, I'm behind them. It's a backhanded way of saying it, I know. I had a similar thought process when Rich Rod was hired. I wasn't thrilled about it, but I supported.
December 12th, 2020 at 1:37 PM ^
It's a senseless debate to get into whether Clemson built themselves up to this level without the aid of bagmen, but rather thru the genius coaching acumen of Dabo.
Rashan Gary already answered that, the case is closed. Doesn't mean Dabo isn't a great coach, but he had help.
Does Michigan offer NO benefits that violate or skirt ncaa rules? Doubtful. But not even the strongest proponents of any of the various arguments being made here believe they offer things all the things bama, clemson & osu offer.
For one thing, as has been mentioned, now that all students attend virtually the stigma of letting athletes do it is over. Allow it ✅
I'll never accept that Michigan is actually the "bad guy" for following the rules every school agreed upon in order to compete.
But I think there are ways now, with NIL, to be Leaders & Best in making sure athletes have opportunities to monetize themselves, to learn how to creatively market their special skills.
But the bottom line, whether you believe we croot our way back to contention, or coach ourselves back, this head coach & this staff aren't the answers. Time to move on!
December 11th, 2020 at 9:12 PM ^
We don’t decline further unless we keep chasing that unicorn and the fan base implodes the program. Folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.
10 wins every season likely fills the stadium. Plenty of positives to recruit players to that level of success.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:13 PM ^
Michigan has perpetually been in that depressing 15 minutes of Rocky 3, between Mickey’s death (Bo) and the epic back-to-basics Rocky & Apollo eye of the tiger training/bromance montage.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:18 PM ^
I think it’s funny how Bacon and others have said things like “we can beat Ohio St once every 7 years.” No we haven’t and no we won’t.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:30 PM ^
Last 20 years we have won 3 times ... that is a win every 6.7 years on the math. I think we can do better than that long term but not over the next 7 years as OSUs top 3 recruiting classes all but guarantees minimal relative improvement.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:37 PM ^
Personally, I do not want to say ‘oh boy .... every where I got 9-3/10-2/11-1, no shot at beating OSU, no shot at CFP, but heck .... I can compete with OSU once every 4-5 years’.
Seriously. Our fans settle for less.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:23 PM ^
Considering that our best and possibly only option for avoiding a loss to OSU is to duck them and use a handful of positive COVID cases as an excuse, I don’t think we could adopt OSU’s recruiting tactics if we wanted to
December 11th, 2020 at 9:27 PM ^
Until we get coaches who can actually utilize the talent, it doesn’t matter who we recruit here.
I’ve been beating this drum for a while and I’ll continue to do so until it’s not longer an issue:
We out recruit every school in our conference except for Ohio State and yet we still get embarrassed on the field.
Coaching matters more (99% percent of the time) than getting the best recruiting class. Get coaches who are able to lead a winning program and the recruiting will follow at a place like Michigan.
December 11th, 2020 at 11:08 PM ^
Cough , Matt Campbell, cough
December 11th, 2020 at 9:28 PM ^
Webb and JUB .... ?. We say we are the ‘Leaders and the Best’, yet that does not apply to football if we compromise morals.
So .... why get rid of JH if we are never going to 100% invest in football to beat OSU or Clemson?
change the fight song ..... cause your not operating at being leaders and best - unless you need the hyphenate added to it to indicate your willingness to go so far.
December 11th, 2020 at 10:49 PM ^
I’ve actually thought about this lately. What would happen if they banned the fight song from being played at football games until the program finally won another title? Motivation...maybe??
December 11th, 2020 at 11:37 PM ^
That's literally the dumbest thing I've read all day and I read a lot of stupid shit.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:28 PM ^
So much of this is about coaching it isn't funny. A team loaded with 4* players should be able to rise up and beat a team with a bunch of 5* players once in a while. It's exactly why Dantonio was able to beat us with a bunch of 3* players. Unfortunately we currently lack badly in the coaching department so it could take years with the damage Harbaugh and his staff are currently doing to the program.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:29 PM ^
My thinking is if Michigan can get to where they have the coaches and players to beat everyone else on their schedule and finish 10-1 regular season every year and win their bowl. They would keep recruiting at a high level and I think they eventually have the horses like a couple of years lately where they could beat OSU. Other than two years under Harbaugh did I feel as if we were that team that could beat everyone else and seriously challenge Ohio St.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:29 PM ^
The question: can Michigan become elite by using the "Michigan approach" in that we focus our recruiting objectives on kids that have high character, who will graduate with minimal academic risk?
No, we cannot.
Me: We can be elite, but we have to start using the same recruiting practices as Alabama/OSU/Georgia.
Agreed, but I'm not sold that they are all cheating as you seem to suggest. I'd buy that for UGA & Bama, but I don't see it at OSU to the same degree. If they did Parsons would have went to OSU. But, I do agree we need to broaden our scope, change our strategy, and see football as #1 and stop expecting these kids to hold such high academic standards. Many are simply doing an apprenticeship for the NFL and there's nothing wrong with that.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:36 PM ^
Granted it was 12 years ago, but hearing that the president and AD reprimanded Rodriguez for using “ain’t” makes me think things will never improve.
December 11th, 2020 at 11:11 PM ^
That happens on this blog.
December 11th, 2020 at 9:42 PM ^
We aren't wallowing in the mud with the SEC and we're not offering online classes for athletes like OSU. That's just the way it is.
Ohio State is lapping us and there's not a damn thing we can do to stop them.