First Step to Recognizing '92 and '93 Final Fours?
This kind of slid by me in the moment, but the season tickets for the Penn State game last Wednesday had a graphic saying "8 Final Fours." To my knowledge, this is the first time I've seen something that seems to legitimize the '92 and '93 Final Fours on an official type thing. Maybe a stretch to connect this to putting the banners back up or anything more, but I thought it was interesting.
January 29th, 2020 at 11:49 AM ^
Here we go.
January 29th, 2020 at 11:55 AM ^
The down in fronts will pass away.
The other programs will get more flagrant with their paying of players and scandals.
This scandal will look more and more like a blip in history.
And soon, the banners will hang.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:10 PM ^
Cheating used to be way more flagrant, not less. Lol at the everything from the 70s and 80's people knew were going on and ignored
January 29th, 2020 at 3:10 PM ^
That's how UCLA basketball built their dynasty with Wooden as the HC. They cheated but it was for whatever reason swept under the rug
January 29th, 2020 at 12:55 PM ^
Ah, classic. When you don't have a cogent argument, resort to an ad hominem attack. Well done, sir.
Well, as it happens, I do think people have a responsibility to those seated behind them not to interfere unnecessarily with their viewing experience.
And, I think that teams that break the rules do not embody the lessons that the university should be trying to impart to its students.
I'm not in any hurry to pass away, though, but thank you for your kind wishes.
January 29th, 2020 at 1:27 PM ^
Where's the ad hominem? For that matter where's the argument?
January 29th, 2020 at 5:22 PM ^
"The down in fronts will pass away."
I'll translate, since apparently a lot of you need help understanding it:
"Everyone who disagrees with me is an old fuddy-duddy whose opinions can safely be ignored and who will die soon anyway."
January 29th, 2020 at 5:45 PM ^
You're paraphrasing quite liberally there. The down in fronts will pass away, that is a statement of fact not an opinion. The rest of it is also things that are likely to happen. I didn't see his statement to be an argument for what should happen.
Regardless maybe you're a bit too sensitive here. Its okay, some of us appreciate what you old fellas bring to the table.
January 29th, 2020 at 6:41 PM ^
I'm in my early 40s. And, while I was certainly paraphrasing, there's no question that was the intent. It's always the intent whenever this issue comes up, because for a certain class of people, it is absolutely unfathomable that anybody would actually think that integrity matters unless they're like 150 years old.
January 29th, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
Why are Boomers so incredibly sensitive/defensive about everything?
January 29th, 2020 at 9:56 PM ^
You need to look up the Baby Boom. I'm not a Boomer.
January 29th, 2020 at 11:47 PM ^
Boomer is a mentality. You've got it :)
January 29th, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
Okay, I guess I'm naive because I totally missed that obvious intent. Probably because I fail to see how hanging some fabric with letters on it has anything to do with integrity.
January 29th, 2020 at 9:59 PM ^
Michigan cheated.
It doesn't matter that the rules are unfair. It doesn't matter that other teams have gotten away with worse. They knew the rules, they broke the rules, and they got (deservedly) punished for it. It took me a very long time to regain an interest in Michigan basketball.
Michigan is supposed to stand for something better than "win at any cost."
January 30th, 2020 at 4:48 AM ^
I think you should go away again.
January 30th, 2020 at 10:16 AM ^
I'm not arguing Michigan didn't cheat, although I would say that lies in a gray area with regards to the University but that's a different discussion. I'm saying I find hanging banners to be amoral, that whether Michigan does or doesn't hang banners has nothing to do with integrity. There are literally zero stakes to hanging banners, no one will be harmed either way and no one's behavior will change for the better or the worse if the University hangs some pieces of fabric from the ceiling of a building they own. It's effectively virtue signaling, it's pretending to be better than without doing any of the hard work actually required to be better than.
January 30th, 2020 at 3:26 PM ^
sigh.
i'd be stunned if you are both in favor of putting the banners back up AND have no opinion on louisville's shenanigans that may have kept us from winning a championship, or ohio state's shit under urban meyer, or terrelle pryor's car and tattoos, or (fill in blank here).
you use "virtue signalling" as some kind of insult. sorry, but taking the banners down is, indeed, a signal of virtue. we ARE better than louisville, and ohio state, and memphis because we HAVE done the hard work that entails. that's not something we should be ashamed of.
January 30th, 2020 at 4:28 PM ^
Sigh right back at you. I have no opinion about hanging the banners, my whole point is that I view that as a zero. I watched the fab five play and enjoyed it immensely. Hanging or not hanging the banners has no effect on that. It also has no effect on the fact that Ed Martin gave a variety of local players, who went to a variety of universities, money and then later the University of Michigan gave him free tickets to basketball games. Banners are irrelevant. To everything. Hanging or not hanging them is a symbolic gesture.
I find arguing over who is the most moral in the massively corrupt strictly money making endeavor that is high level college athletics to be nonsensical but if you wish to have that discussion, the hanging of banners is not a factor. The hard work in this case would be not participating in this sham.
January 30th, 2020 at 4:54 PM ^
of COURSE it's a symbolic gesture. by definition. duh.
i'm not arguing over who is most moral - that's not the point on any level. what i'm arguing is that we should make a choice based on our morals. which we do, as do louisville and ohio state and sparty.and baylor and liberty and ole miss and the list goes on and on and on. if you've never, not once, complained about those guys? by all means. hang 'em up.
the less said about your "the hard work...would be not participating" comment, the better.
January 30th, 2020 at 5:19 PM ^
"of COURSE it's a symbolic gesture. by definition. duh."
Then why are you arguing it's the right thing to do? That's pretty much my entire argument, that symbolic gestures are irrelevant to morality, they're fake morality.
"i'm not arguing over who is most moral"
Then what do you mean by better than?
"the less said about your "the hard work...would be not participating" comment, the better."
Why? That would be taking a moral stand, to pass up on the millions of dollars to actually prioritize education and the "student-athlete".
January 30th, 2020 at 9:07 PM ^
pure gibberish.
January 30th, 2020 at 9:26 PM ^
Lol, compelling rebuttal. Why even bother to respond if you were just going to wave the white flag?
January 29th, 2020 at 8:39 PM ^
Also wouldn't "a certain class of people" also be an ad hominem?
January 29th, 2020 at 9:55 PM ^
Yes, it would be. Mea culpa. :)
January 29th, 2020 at 1:32 PM ^
Sorry for treading on your lawn. You should try some Metamucil.
January 29th, 2020 at 2:39 PM ^
January 29th, 2020 at 11:55 AM ^
Fast forward the entire Ed Martin situation to 2019 and have it happen all over again. When confronted with the evidence that Martin was paying players Michigan now says "no, he didnt do that and we have no idea of what you're talking about" and nothing happens. Shit, the freaking FBI has head coaches on tape acknowledging direct payments from their own salary to players and nobody cares, nothing happens.
Hang the banners. Hang them proudly.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:01 PM ^
I've been very outspoken (not in a good way) regarding Webber over the years...
... reading what you just wrote completely flips the script for me.
Hang 'em. Screw it. Just hang em.
Also, if UNC can offer fake classes and not loose their accreditation, and the NCAA doesn't get involved because they have no bylaws on the books to address fake classes (that's what they really said), then eff the lot of them and hang the damn banners.
January 29th, 2020 at 2:17 PM ^
Here is the issue. Martin was paying players - but not directing them to specific schools. He paid Detroit area players that attended several other B1G schools like Iowa, Illinois and Minnesota. He was considered a Michigan booster because Michigan provided him game tickets. This was against the rules and Michigan was punished.
To me this seems different that bagmen representing schools using money to direct players to their universities - like what has happened with the FBI and shoe cases. Martin was an equal opportunity bagman.
January 29th, 2020 at 2:37 PM ^
This is an important distinction people forget. Mateen Cleaves took cash from Ed Martin for crying out loud, but his school was not investigated so they get to count their national title. It was about money laundering, not directing players to UofM. But he was a UofM booster and Uofzm players got caught.
January 29th, 2020 at 6:34 PM ^
If you’re saying there’s a distinction between paying players and paying players to go to a particular school, then I have to disagree. It doesn’t matter if they were paid to go to any school directly, once the player receives a cash benefit, he becomes ineligible and any school that plays an ineligible player must forfeit the games in which he participated.
If you want to hang the banners, go for it, but don’t be the same person who complains that osu, Clemson, and Georgia cheat. I believe the banners should go back up and we should be doing everything that anyone else does and not this half-ass attempt to stay legit. Offer on-line classes. Everyone else does.
January 29th, 2020 at 4:22 PM ^
Missouri, more than Minnesota, I think. 2 from Detroit area went to Missouri in that time period.
January 29th, 2020 at 11:55 AM ^
That was it. That was Warde's entire rehabilitation plan. We can now be done talking about those teams.
January 29th, 2020 at 11:58 AM ^
Why does it matter so much? Would Final Four banners from 26, 27 years ago mean that much more in addition to the championship banner from 30 years ago? We are talking ancient history in terms of young people in 2020.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^
Who gives a fuck about young people? It matters a lot to guys my age and older, and since we pay for everything we get the loudest voice.
Hang the Banners.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:04 PM ^
I think we've unofficially recognized them for some time. IIRC there were t-shirts sold in 2018 with all the Final Four years on them.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:12 PM ^
The first step should be the athletic department sending a letter to the NCAA that says...
Dear NCAA,
Eat a bag of dicks.
Love,
The University of Michigan
January 29th, 2020 at 12:57 PM ^
"A bag of dicks for da dicks!" - Antonio Brown
January 29th, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
We could hang the Louisville 2013 Natty next to it!
Not to mention the '97 NIT Champs and inaugural '98 BTT Champs!
January 29th, 2020 at 1:35 PM ^
The difference is we actually won all of those games save beating Louisville
January 29th, 2020 at 12:24 PM ^
It did make me smile that they yoinked the '97 NIT Champ in 2002(?) and the team "replaced it" with the 2004 Not Inuff Talent title (aka: The only National Championship nobody wants to defend). It's a shame '13 & '18 fell a few (dozen) points short of the Big Boy Banners.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:33 PM ^
Making the Final Four isn't a big boy banner?
Ask Purdue about that.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:37 PM ^
My bad. Biggest Boy Banner.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:55 PM ^
People wrongly accuse the Fab Five of "never winning anything" - they won two NCAA regional championships and the banners that go along with that. Hang them up.
January 29th, 2020 at 12:56 PM ^
Guy who was running a fair sized gambling ring gave several hundred thousand dollars to our players. It happened, just move on from it. the past is the past.
January 29th, 2020 at 1:36 PM ^
And right up until the end of his recruitment, Chris Webber was leaning to going to Staee. This was WAY after the time he took the money.
January 29th, 2020 at 2:21 PM ^
"to our players" That is incorrect, he gave money to players that played all over the country. Why weren't they punished? Was Michigan guilty? Yes as were several other B1G universities that were never punished.
January 29th, 2020 at 10:56 PM ^
This seems unlikely. By time we got caught and punished we weren’t taking that much attention away from anyone. Webber got caught taking $150k. That is a ton of cash to a player. And it is coming from a guy running a gambling ring. The question isn’t should we hang the banners, it’s what didn’t we get busted for. Maybe we did get the lite punishment.
January 29th, 2020 at 1:30 PM ^
Time heals all wounds...except for decapitation.
January 29th, 2020 at 1:40 PM ^
Tough to come back from castration, also.