Honker Burger

November 8th, 2023 at 8:34 AM ^

This is the most annoying thing about this entire ordeal. Michigan got absolutely raked over the coals for 2 weeks.

'Cheaters,' 'tainted,' 'unprecedented,' 'health and safety,' 'biggest scandal next to point shaving.' 

Reports come out that other teams are doing THE EXACT SAME THING... 'ok let's move on.'

Michigan cannot accept the media simply backing off as the conclusion of this. Damage has been done and we need to continue to attack, both by obliterating on the field, and destroying the smear campaign that was started by all this.

Joined: 04/15/2018

MGoPoints: 5686

ESNY

November 8th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^

I think he did a good job in emphasizing that the alleged violation was the same - both Michigan and Purdue used third-party in-person scouting to attempt to gain an advantage - even if the way they got there was different.

Team A used a third party to sit in the stands during a game and film the signals

Team B used a third party to pass along intel on the signals they obtained, at least in part, during games

 

Joined: 11/06/2008

MGoPoints: 12310

RAH

November 8th, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^

That is a good way to see the unfairness of it. But in reality, UM didn't really use advance scouting. I looked at numerous definitions and examples of what a scout does (what is a talent scout, what is a military scout, what is a baseball scout, what is a nfl scout, what is a college football scout, etc.

They all describe a complex activity that requires intelligence, analysis, experience, judgement, evaluation, reporting, etc.

The definition of "Scout "(the verb - per dictionary.com) is to inquire, investigate, examine, or seek: conduct an examination or investigation

Connor's people did nothing but stand with their phones and take phone video. That does not meet the well established definition of scout.

But it certainly appears that what the OSU and Rutgers coaches met the definition.

Joined: 02/23/2018

MGoPoints: 7600

Eat Your Wheatlies

November 8th, 2023 at 10:36 AM ^

I need a little help here...

What evidence is there to suggest that these teams were advanced scouting Michigan? Or is that what we are calling the shared spreadsheet? I didn't see it mentioned specifically in the article, and I need to blast back on an osu slappy that just won't stop with his incessant defense of the program he roots for.

TIA

Joined: 11/17/2010

MGoPoints: 7618

MGoGoGo

November 8th, 2023 at 10:54 AM ^

NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1 states: “Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited.”  B1G teams that obtained information from the coaches of UofM's opponents who played UofM earlier in the season, engaged in "Off-campus, in-person (the prior opponent's coaches were at the games) scouting (the prior opponent's coaches obtained information about UofM's plays and signals and provided it to late opponents) in the same season." 

The counter argument is that the "in-person" clause isn't met.  Well, if that's the case then none of Stalion's vast network committed "in-person" scouting either.  (the possible distinction exists only if Stalions was on the sideline at the CMU game).

 

Joined: 12/30/2011

MGoPoints: 3422

M-Dog

November 8th, 2023 at 10:54 AM ^

By the letter of the law, there probably is no provable violation on their part.  And  by the letter of the law there is no provable violation on Michigan's part.

BUT . . . BUT . . . BUT . . . IT WAS A SPORTSMANSHIP VIOLATION ON MICHIGAN'S PART!!

OK then . . . Big Ten opponents colluding against Michigan by giving professional curated scouting to Michigan's future opponents is far worse than Connor Stalions hiring rubes that leave at halftime because it's raining.

By the letter of the law, it's a tie.  Let's move on from the bullshit.

By sportsmanship rules, it's a blowout in favor of Michigan.  Let's keep digging into this.

You pick which one, Buckeye.  

Joined: 07/06/2008

MGoPoints: 257517

bdneely4

November 8th, 2023 at 8:45 AM ^

It will be interesting how this all plays out as these last 3 games and the B1G championship are covered.  Our team has been pretty tight lipped so far, but after we beat OSU the flood gates may open with trash talk.  There is going to be a lot more information at that time and I just don't see our players holding back after what they have hypocritically accused us of.

Joined: 01/06/2009

MGoPoints: 13935

Romeo50

November 8th, 2023 at 9:08 AM ^

That is the phrase, "who would let the thieves define theft?". Fire the defamation cannons! Full scorched earth with removal of the perpetrators and Jim ain't one of them according to the investigators at the NCAA who have the phones and computers of just one school.

What quid pro quo, Tony, was to be expected for the multi-millions suddenly earned in 6 mos. on a real estate transaction just prior to taking the job? I hope you weren't compromised by the defining thieves?

Joined: 03/09/2013

MGoPoints: 16588

Honker Burger

November 8th, 2023 at 9:15 AM ^

As a small protest I've deleted my ESPN app, and removed the favorite from my browsers.

Rece Davis coming out and doubling down on his assertion "the idea that this is slanted in some way because we’re out to get Jim Harbaugh is ridiculous," and "It’s a ridiculous narrative because the people we have covering this story are seasoned journalists whose credibility matters to them," was the last straw for me. 

Thamel had information directly damaging to his narrative and withheld it. Rece Davis supporting this completely damages his own credibility, as well as the other heads spouting complete and utter nonsense. Maybe not a straight 'anti-Harbaugh' bias, but certainly an 'anti-Michigan' bias.

ESPN does care about money- and losing millions of clicks from Michigan fans, not just because of 'I don't like what they are saying about my team,' but actual clear evidence of journalistic malpractice, could go a long way. 

Joined: 04/15/2018

MGoPoints: 5686

goblu330

November 8th, 2023 at 9:23 AM ^

There appear to be credible rumors that Pete Thamel is going to be internally disciplined by ESPN.  Being handed the story on Rutgers/OSU/Purdue and not publishing anything when he was THE GUY covering the story at ESPN is pretty bad stuff.  ESPN clearly has a bias against Michigan but certainly there is a journalistic ethics department of some nature at ABC/ESPN who will call balls and strikes at the end of the day.  His coverage got way out of control and he may lose his job because of it.

Joined: 01/07/2022

MGoPoints: 32123

BallsoHarb

November 8th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^

Same. You cannot sell me on granting anonymity to a private firm to publish this information, frame in the worst possible means, but then withhold first hand knowledge that provides critical context against that firm's narrative. You also can't go two days without addressing that first hand knowledge after the AP reports it, but then within hours of Blake Corum reports have that up.

I did click on the Rittenberg (sp?) and Tom VH piece to provide traction for a relatively accurate piece, but will not be doing so for anything else.

Joined: 03/09/2017

MGoPoints: 2692

wildbackdunesman

November 8th, 2023 at 9:50 AM ^

I easily click on espn 200 times a week to get scores, stats from games, and other game data during football season between the NFL and NCAA. 

No more.

Multiple FoxSports personalities have been fair to us from Joel Klatt to Tim Brando as well as others like Brady Quinn. Here is a link to their scores website.

Fox sports also gives you the stats easy to read and the odds of winning, etc.

Joined: 07/16/2008

MGoPoints: 30282

M-Dog

November 8th, 2023 at 11:06 AM ^

Rece Davis coming out and doubling down on his assertion "the idea that this is slanted in some way because we’re out to get Jim Harbaugh is ridiculous," and "It’s a ridiculous narrative because the people we have covering this story are seasoned journalists whose credibility matters to them,"

If he said this that's fantastic.  It shows he got the message and is really feeling the heat to be so defensive.

As the mouthpiece for a major show on college football, this will also set the tone for other broadcasters.  Nobody is going to want to be the last one standing screaming "Harbaugh must die!" for commonplace advance sign scouting.

Joined: 07/06/2008

MGoPoints: 257517

Perkis-Size Me

November 8th, 2023 at 8:44 AM ^

If I'm an OSU fan, a booster, coach or staff member, I have no idea why you'd want to continue pushing the Big Ten to bring the hammer down. Not at this point, anyway. 

Its clear at this point that this is not your father's Michigan. Or even your older brother's Michigan. Michigan is not going to sit back and take this. They're going to use every legal option they have available if the Big Ten pushes for suspensions, and if this finds its way into the courts, then you can bet your bottom dollar that everyone's dirty laundry is going to get aired out. OSU's included, and I've got $100 in my pocket that says OSU has some skeletons in its closet that it DOES NOT want seeing the light of day. 

I think there are certain parties who made a gross mis-calculation in assuming Michigan would just roll over and take the punishment because that's probably what Michigan would've done in the past. Now Michigan is showing teeth and pushing back, and Pettiti is backed into a corner with how to proceed. 

Honestly, if I'm a decision-maker at OSU, I am not wanting to take the risk that Michigan will push this to the courts, because I can't reasonably be convinced that something isn't going on within my own program too. There is PUH-LENTY of history just within the last 10-12 years, and with my previous two coaches, to suggest that there is. 

 

Joined: 11/30/2011

MGoPoints: 105760

Blau

November 8th, 2023 at 9:03 AM ^

It should also be noted that this situation also benefits the 3 teams left on the schedule by telling them to game plan differently and adjust before the games against UM. If you can’t adjust your play calls or the way you adjust with three weeks+ notice, you really suck as a coach…

In other words, if you show me your euchre hand and then we decide to reshuffle, I no longer know what you got. If we’ve played 2 games prior, I can guess how aggressive/passive you’ll be but I don’t know your fucking cards, man. 

Joined: 01/23/2014

MGoPoints: 35254

goblu330

November 8th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^

It is such a part of the game that it is hard to un-know them once you know them if they are not scrapped.

I think Michigan obviously knows any information they had regarding other teams signs is now debunked, but I think they thought that anyway because teams change their signs all the time.  This isn't high school football.  Every big time program has an internal ecosystem of information that the other team cannot get regardless of how much they watch signs and decoy signs.

Michigan attempting to decipher other teams signs during the game is 100% fair game and I think they will continue to do that throughout the season.

Joined: 01/07/2022

MGoPoints: 32123

mgoblue78

November 8th, 2023 at 9:54 AM ^

Or maybe they're like the HS Football coach who I heard interviewed on the radio a few days ago.

When he was asked if teams in his league tried to steal signs, he said "You must be kidding, it's everything we can do to get our players to try to understand our own signs. let alone the other team's signs."

Joined: 12/15/2011

MGoPoints: 6655