B1G coaches "urge action" from Tony Petitti
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:18 AM ^
Mob mentality vs due process
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:30 AM ^
The coaches in the Big Ten laid out to Petitti, who was hired in April, just how distinct of a schematic advantage Michigan has held the last three years by illegally obtaining the opposition's signals ahead of time, as has been alleged.
Coaches used words like "tainted," "fraudulent" and "unprecedented" on the call to describe Michigan's signal-stealing scheme, as has been alleged. Much of the call, according to sources, was coaches explaining to Petitti both how it worked and how it impacted them and their programs. Both in-person opponent scouting and using electronic equipment to steal signals are not allowed by NCAA rules.
These coaches are trying to say that the sign-stealing was why they got curb-stomped by Michigan. It wasn't that they got out-coached, out-recruited, that Michigan was better in player development, strength and conditioning, etc.
There are two big problems with that argument. First, many coaches including Brian Kelly and Matt Rhule have said that sign-stealing provides an incremental advantage at best. Second, and this is the big one, what is the narrative that all the pundits have said over and over ad nauseam? Michigan hasn't played anyone. Michigan's strength of schedule is pathetic.
You can't have it both ways. Michigan has been so dominant, that any "sign-stealing advantage" by some rogue fanboy assistant is inconsequential. And we're about to prove that in the next 4 games, where all of our opponents are aware of the issue and can take the necessary corrective measures.
Let's go boys! Let's kick some ass! Leave no doubt!
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:17 AM ^
I want to take cuts here so that my comment is at the top of this thread.
I'm getting so fucking pissed off at this whole bullshit story, anyone who watches football can see the ass kicking happening on the field.
We've outscored our B1G opponents by a combined score of 239-31 in 5 games, so give me a fucking break.
ESPN sucks and has become a yellow journalism outfit, it's sad, Thamel is awful, whenever he's on, especially gameday, he looks like a deer in headlights, he just sounds dumb.
If ESPN wants to do their game day in A2 for the game, I hope we say fuck you to them, a hard pass, that show has waned anyway. I especially hate how whenever they've come to A2 for that show, the guest picker is some schmo who isn't even affiliated with U-M to begin with.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:38 AM ^
I get it, I’m pissed at this as well and agree that not much would change from the games we played. At the same time, if this was OSU the calls to storm the castle would be the same. It has tainted the sport and is downright disgraceful. I don’t know what the solution/punishment should be, but I don’t think the players should be punished and that’s the bad part. You’re talking about signing bonuses and possibly ruining the careers of a coaching staff who more than likely did nothing wrong.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:03 AM ^
The solution is comms in helmets. It's quite simple. If the NCAA doesn't implement use next season, then they, and the B1G, shouldn't be handing out any punishments, other than a strongly worded letter, or a look of admonishing at next year's B1G media days.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:30 AM ^
At the same time, if this was OSU the calls to storm the castle would be the same.
I don't think so. There would be frustration expressed, but not to the same degree. OSU handles this type of PR way better than Michigan. Sports journalists are nicer to them.
EDIT: Who does everyone suppose is in the Group of Five (whiners)? Day and Franklin, obviously. I'd guess Schiano and Bert, too. Who's the fifth? I'm going with Tom Allen.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:23 AM ^
EDIT: Who does everyone suppose is in the Group of Five (whiners)? Day and Franklin, obviously. I'd guess Schiano and Bert, too. Who's the fifth? I'm going with Tom Allen.
Ferentzes. Brian be like "I'd have kept my job if Michigan didn't know my signals! We'd have scored 25 easy!"
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:24 AM ^
Fickell hates Michigan, but he just got here so maybe not. Barnett doesn't seem like the type and doesn't have the clout, but maybe out of a sense of obligation for MSU. Ryan Walters maybe if he's butt hurt from when he was at Illinois. People didn't like my interpretation of his quote, though, at his press conference and believed he was being very respectful. I would have said Fitz but, obviously not. Locksley maaaaaybe? Urged on by Gattis. It's probably the five you said.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:16 AM ^
Hmmm..... Really? It is not banned because it is an advantage. It was for money. HS does this. So, they all are disgraceful. Don't get caught up in these articles. These writers have no morals. They just write stuff up. UNC gave fake classes. They did that as an institution. This seems like an one guy. Schematic advantage is unclear. I wish we stop posting every ESPN article here.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:07 AM ^
So, according to the rules, you can legally hire a “clipping service” to get you video of games. I presume this means that if you ask them for every running play in Ohio State‘s last game, they would give you a video of just that. Is there anything in the rules that says you can’t hire a clipping service to get you only shots that show the other team giving signals?
If they are going through the publicly available resources and just pulling select components of it, I would think that is OK. If so, what Stalions has done may not be permitted, but the outcome may be no different. If they are smart, Michigan has people right now going over every YouTube video of every opponent, and showing all of the signs that are readily available on public resources. I.e., the same result could have been achieved without the “vast network.”
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
As I have posted at length in the rule diary thread and the rules thread (with Erik from Dayton as the OP)....NOTHING in the NCAA rules prohibits a program from acquiring recordings of future opponent games. NOTHING.
While the legal explanation requires more detail (go read my prior posts), the short version is...
...NCAA Rule 11.6 has for decades treated in-person SCOUTING as a different thing than acquiring opponents' game RECORDINGS. It is simply is an incorrect reading of the Rule 11.6 to equate in-person scouting with acquiring 3rd party game recordings. Stalions did not send scouts to games. He sent 3rd party recorders to games.
Only the former (in-person scouting) is prohibited.
The latter (paying a 3rd party for recordings of opponent games) is NOT prohibited. Paying for game recordings was prohibited (with narrow exceptions) pre-2013, but they amended rule 11.6 to get rid of that part in 2013.
Stalions found a clever way to get recordings of future opponents' games that may have given Michigan an incremental edge in sign deciphering (a more complete archive of opponent's signs than one can get from all-22 and TV feed game recordings).
He built a better mouse trap. But make no mistake, the NCAA rules do not prohibit mouse traps.
This is satellite camps all over again. Nothing in violation of NCAA rules. But other programs are angry because they think Michigan got an edge on them.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:25 AM ^
I agree with your analysis, but apparently nuance and reading comprehension are things of the past for sports media. I am just saying that even if the NCAA says CS was out of line with what he did (based solely on public outcry rather than rules), I would love it if Michigan had a video of publicly-sourced opponent signs, showing that the actual benefit from the CS videos was near zero.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:25 AM ^
Only the former (in-person scouting) is prohibited.
But if that was him on the CMU sidelines, doesn't that make this in play?
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Yes, that would violate R 11.6 prohibition on in-person scouting. But...so what? One violation of 11.6 is small potatoes.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:54 AM ^
GoF, you have done excellent work on deciphering the rule book. The devil (angel) is in the details here. If/when the time comes to meet with the B1G and NCAA in a formal manner, I would hope that Michigan's representatives are arguing these points heavily. Now, the wrench in the spokes is obviously going to be Stalions on the CMU-MSU sidelines, if that indeed happened. And that alone would catch Michigan some penalties. But I don't think the level of penalties would be severe if we are granted that Stalions' acquaintances technically acted within the rules when recording from the stands.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:06 AM ^
I really like your argument; some have knocked it as those videographers being agents of Scalions and thus the University however Michigan is losing the PR battle in that regard. Listening to satellite radio, I keep hearing the narrative that it was Scalions in person cheating. The message gets lost in that Scalions purchased the tickets, so a lot of people are making the assumption that Scalions was doing this in person. [The CMU sideline incident doesn't help.] This is usually followed with how could he do this on his $55,000 a year salary?
If Ohio State was behind this leak, then you almost have to tip your hat to them. They have kept the story alive and have provided just enough updates to keep it front and center so that regardless of your scouting technicality, Michigan is guilty in the eyes of the general public.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
Tip your hat? If indeed this was OSU, it might be the biggest CHUMP move in the history of sports.
November 2nd, 2023 at 3:33 PM ^
Sure, it's a CHUMP move. {I would have used more vulgar language, but let's go with your phrasing.} But they have almost single Handly mobilized the college football community against Michigan and kept their hands almost white glove clean in the whole process. Raise your hand if you thought at the beginning of the season Ryan Day could have pulled that stunt off?
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:38 PM ^
And when we find out it's him, he will be exposed as the wussy rat that he is.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:23 PM ^
You've put together a very detailed walkthrough of the relevant rules and their revision history, and I'm baffled as to why Brian, Seth, and the various insiders have been completely silent on it. I think the most was when Brian said he doesn't expect the NCAA to split hairs on their own rules, they will act like the spirit of the rule was broken and punish accordingly. I completely understand that point, but I don't see why Michigan couldn't put up a decent defense with the info you have pointed out or negotiate down any penalties, or at a minimum spread it among the media to fight back against the shit maelstrom.
It makes me feel like the insiders know more bad info that will make your rule breakdown a moot point, or maybe the NCAA has put out some other guidance about these rules that we're unaware of. Or maybe we're all taking crazy pills, who knows.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:01 AM ^
I don’t disagree that it should be punished. But we are talking a 2-3 scholarship reduction and probation level of infraction. Tainted and disgraceful are two words I associate with college football and basketball as institutions right now, and this is hardly in my top ten list of scandals in the past 10 years.
Also, these coaches are claiming a huge tactical advantage, and yet the NCAA recently was considering getting rid of this rule because it is no longer the huge advantage it once was. So which is it?
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:37 AM ^
It was banned for financial reasons, not because it provided an advantage. Also, the prohibition is on staff members doing in-person scouting, not 3rd parties. And recording anything is not illegal in stadium. It's all perfectly legal according to the rules book. That said, it does skirt the intent pretty good. But it also appears that the coaches didn't actually know this was happening. So maybe a public admonishment.
But the breathless reporting is out of control. This is nothing more than words taken out of context - which is all reporting is, anymore. The real damage is institutional harm - never again in his career (either college or pro) will Harbaugh not be thought of as a cheater in the eyes of the non-Michigan diehard fans that actually understand the situation because we've paid attention.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:47 AM ^
I’m expecting a much bigger penalty. The NCAA has no spine, these infractions have been blown out of proportion to the nth degree. I think the NCAA is going to come down hard. I don’t know what but chances are these coaches want penalties levied now to effectively ban us from the post season. If they do that. I will not be watching another college football game if this happens.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
That isn't happening because of $$$$$. OSU got a one year post-season ban when the HC literally lied on an affidavit to the NCAA. If even that penalty were imposed for something that (presumably) will have no evidence showing the knowledge or support of the HC, that would be appallingly inconsistent. This is going to be nothing. Scholarship numbers don't matter any longer. Maybe a suspension for the HC.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:20 AM ^
OSU got a one year post-season ban when the HC literally lied on an affidavit to the NCAA.
Not only that, but they got to pick *which year* they took it. It blew up in their faces that Urban's first year they went 12-0 and didn't get to play in the BTC game or the BCS.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
I certainly hope you’re right but have a very hard time believing this all boils down to meaningless scholarship reduction and another 4 game suspension for JH.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:04 AM ^
No, it should not be punished. Michigan has not violated any NCAA rule.
None of the journalists have bothered to do the research on current Rule 11.6, the prior versions of 11.6, the explanatory guidance that the NCAA has issued along with the various amendments to 11.6 over the decades.
These guys are simply clueless and wrong (as are whatever anon coaches they quote). But...I guess they are journalists (and football coaches) and not lawyers, so...no surprise...
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:28 AM ^
Since they are just being willfully blind to the actual rules, I would love to see someone turn the microscope on Thamel and his ilk. Lodge ethics complaints with their publications, and demand retractions and corrections. And then start a campaign to re-tweet all of the ethics complaints about them.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:52 AM ^
I would argue that Michigan has already been severely punished in the court of public opinion on this whole thing. We were guilty right out of the gate.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
Pardon my idiocy, but in order for this to have much effect wouldn't you also have to have the opponent's playbook? It's not like they're signaling every block and route from the sideline.
I think these suggestions of advantage are way, way, way overblown.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:06 AM ^
Apology accepted.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:16 AM ^
At the same time, if this was OSU the calls to storm the castle would be the same. It has tainted the sport and is downright disgraceful.
Maybe. But, at the same time, if Ryan Day knew about this last year, why didn't he say anything then? Why didn't he go on Amazon and spend $50 to get wristbands for his key offensive and defensive playcallers and players? If UM had SUCH an advantage, all he had to do was put everything on wrist bands and then UM would be toast. But he didn't. Why?
My Answer: because he thought he was going to win The Game.
Conjecture: he knows he's going to get his ass beat this year, so he's trying to get out in front of it by sowing doubt about whether Michigan really is that good without "cheating". He's basically trying to give himself job and fan support insurance in the event of another 20+ point beating.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
I would say that he is hoping that they can get some favorable calls in The Game (sympathy calls, perhaps?) and some favorable bounces, and come out with a win. If so, they can pretend that the last two losses never happened. All the more reason to throttle them on the field, and leave no doubt about whether we can win without CS.
Also, the fact that people question whether or not one of the top teams in the country can win without a low lever staffer is insane. Did CS beat blocks? No, Mason Graham did that. Did CS throw to NFL windows? No, JJ did that. Idiocracy was not satirical; it was prophetic.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:39 AM ^
Yeah that's pretty much what I think. He knew Michigan had his signs so he thought by changing them in 2022 he would win. Then he didn't and was on the hot seat. This story has changed all that. There were so many posts on OSU message boards about firing day, those have all been replaced with support for Day as the noble warrior fighting fairly against the dirty Michigan cheaters.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
OSU has been cheating in much worse ways (those also including sign stealing) and there have been no calls to "storm the castle."
Ergo, you're wrong.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:29 AM ^
This is literally getting more coverage than any other off-field issue in college football in decades. Urban Meyer protecting a wife beater, Tucker, Baylor covering up a gang rape, etc.
Im pretty sure it’s getting more coverage from sports entities than Nassar did. Nassar was a bigger story on non-sports media, but this has also made the NYT multiple times in addition to shit pubs like WaPo.
I feel like Im living in the Twilight Zone
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:59 AM ^
It has taken the form and qualities of a witch hunt. I’m not “concern trolling” here, but given this second wave of outrage we are seeing, I think it is 50/50 that Michigan will be disqualified from the BTT game. I would at least come to terms with that possibility.
The CFP may be a separate issue. Their statement made clear they are not getting roped into this.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:17 AM ^
Someone from the Big10 was on Big10 radio on SiriusXM yesterday. He said they are not going to get involved. Pretty much they are going to let the investigation play out…. So I doubt anything happens this year.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:27 AM ^
Again, I’m not urging panic. But I thought this story was close to dying (as I’m sure the BIG “person” on the radio did), but ESPN dialed up the outrage again yesterday and it may have worked. I am a bit concerned that something else will come out today. If it did, some entities may act without thinking it through.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:05 AM ^
You’re forgetting what a meal ticket Michigan is for the B1G. Fox would be filing suit the same day the B1G issued any sort of ban from postseason play. I assure you that the last thing the B1G wants to do is get involved with this prematurely.
The NCAA, by their own rules, cannot do any immediately.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:20 AM ^
Yeah, but sometimes when things proceed this way people and entities will begin to act out of character and contrary to their interest and common sense. People are having to accept and buy into hundreds of fallacies already for this to got to the point that it has, so everybody really is off-balance. Two weeks ago I would have said it would be crazy to think the BIG would do something off-the-wall here but I don't it is that crazy to think that now.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:08 AM ^
Remember Jim Delaney's $20 Million bonuses and be reassured that the B1G is again hoping to get two teams into the CFP, because that is all they care about. An organization with no teams in NY yet it's commissioner's office is in Manhattan? They heart money.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
To cop a line from Dr. Edward Pretorius: "Humans are such easy prey."
Clickbait artisans can push the "MANUFACTURE OUTRAGE" button all they want, and it will work on many (most?) people. That doesn't mean it's going to move the needle at the NCAA or B1G. Do they seem overly concerned with public opinion? More concerned with public opinion than the big piles of money in front of them? That hasn't been my impression.
November 2nd, 2023 at 4:44 PM ^
The B1G is not going to panic because they think that Pete fucking Thamel is "dial[ing] up the outrage again." They almost certainly know that PT has lost all credibility by crying wolf so often and being wrong. I think that other sports writers have done a poor job on this, but Thamel and Rittenberg have been found to be outright lying.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:36 AM ^
The press and others it seems are acting as the judge, jury and executioner without having factual knowledge of what actually occurred.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
If we are kept out of the BTT game after thumping our last four opponents with a the #1 SOS in the final 4 games, that would be the real crime. Talk about fraudulent? That would be sending OSU to the BTT game after getting demolished by Michigan on an even playing field. The cat's out of the bag on this thing so whatever advantage everyone thinks we had before is now vaporized.
And if the B1G does do this, then sue the living shit out of the conference and use the proceeds to buy the best recruits over the next bunch of years.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:07 AM ^
Zero chance. Big Ten does not want to have a lawsuit on its hands, as it would if it were to levy any sanction against Michigan before the NCAA process has played out.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:28 AM ^
That's literally concern trolling, mate.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
It's the media climate in general. Straight reporting is boring and there so many other exciting things to watch now. So the media has to up their game. Most news is just an alternate form of reality television, disguised as journalism. Given that, I think it's irresponsible of the NCAA to let Michigan hang out there, without being able to respond in any way. Irreparable damage has been done to its reputation.
