BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 3:38 PM ^

RichRod didn't get support well before he coached his first game at Michigan. He was also one of the best coaches in the country at WV and took Arizona to their highest 3 year win total in program history in his first 3 years there. I'm not saying he was flawless, but he has proven to be one of the best coaches in the nation. Do you think it was him or us? Did he just forget how to coach his three years here? Or do you think a large part of it would be backstabbing and no support from the top down? I mean, I don't really have to make a case for him, he has already done that by becoming quite successful before and after his time at Michigan

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The Mad Hatter

August 24th, 2015 at 3:52 PM ^

what he did before Michigan, and I don't care what he does after Michigan.  He sucked here.  He's a good coach, not a great one.  Great men accept responsibility for their mistakes and failures, instead of making excuses and blaming everyone else.

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BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 6:31 PM ^

Are they really excuses if he was correct? He did suck here and, correctly stated by RichRod, it would have been nearly impossible to succeed here under the circumstances. He also correctly stated that his program was on the right track, proven by a coach as incompetent as Hoke taking them to 11 wins the year after he was fired. And I don't know how you classify a good or great coach, but Alabama wanting him before us and taking Arizona to being one game away from possibly playing in the championship playoffs is pretty fucking amazing

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Needs

August 25th, 2015 at 9:17 AM ^

I agree with much of this, but I don't think he could have attracted a D-coordinator, given the pattern of incompetence on that side of the ball, that would fixed the D to the extent that Mattison did in 2011.

Also, even if Arizona would have beaten Oregon in the Pac-12 championship game, there's no way they were making the playoffs with 2 losses. Both Baylor and TCU, at least, were in line in front of them.

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gbdub

August 24th, 2015 at 3:36 PM ^

"We needed to modernize the house and spruce it up a bit, but a full demo and reconstruction wasn't necessary."

Except a full demo is what he was hired to do, and all he knows how to do. The fact that you (and the rest of us) were shocked and disillusioned says a lot of

Anyway the biggest problem with Lloyd wasn't himself, but the people who felt the need to bash RR in a misguided effort to defend Lloyd a la "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan". A more vocal Carr could have nipped that in the bud. Don't forget that Lloyd was still on the payroll at that point, so "he just wanted to have a quiet retirement" doesn't cut it. So it's not so much that he did anything particularly bad, it's just that he failed to do anything openly positive while he was still a strong influence with a lot of followers / people acting out in his name.

If you don't think "negative vibes" around a program can effect W/L on the field, I don't think you follow recruiting.

It's obviously all water under the bridge at this point. But let's not pretend off-field support doesn't matter at all (sure, Hoke had it and still failed, but I'm pretty sure RR is a better coach...).

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MichiganTeacher

August 24th, 2015 at 11:58 AM ^

Lloyd Carr sure does deserve some of the blame, but as others point out, he has a lot of positives to offest his negatives. NC, Heisman, clean program, etc.

The person who never gets her share of blame around here, in my opinion, is MSC. She forced the DB hire even when he was, to everyone else involved according to another BLL excerpt, the worst candidate. Just another example of her poor work, I think.

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The Barwis Effect

August 24th, 2015 at 1:51 PM ^

I don't know that Lloyd's classes at the end were garbage as much as he started having trouble retaining the players he had recruited. Generally, "The Rule of Thirds" is applied to recruiting classes when it comes to retention. Carr's washout rate over the last four years of his tenure was 47%, as compared to 35% over his first nine years at U-M.

The trend of attrition problems that began under Carr worsened during the Rodriguez era. During RR's three year tenure, 62% of all U-M recruits left prior to playing out their eligibility.

Unfortunately, it did not get any better under Hoke, at least not during his first year. 65% of Hoke's first recruiting class departed before their eligibility had expired, some of whom would still be eligible to play today.

All told, 59% of all players recruited by U-M during the years 2004-2011 left prior to playing out their eligibility. With numbers like that, it's not hard to see why the Wolverines are in the midst of a decade long slide.

Obviously players leave for many different reasons, some of which are outside the control of the head coach. Departures are part of the game. One can conclude, however, that based on U-M's abnormally high washout rate from '07-'11, Michigan coaches -- starting with Carr -- did a very poor job of vetting their recruits, a problem the team is still trying to recover from to this day.




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Coach Carr Camp

August 24th, 2015 at 2:55 PM ^

Per rivals: 2005 recruiting class #6. 2006 recruiting class #13. 2007 recruiting class #12. I am continually baffled by the notion that Carrs last few recruiting classes were garbage. 

Yes, Carr granted his players release, but there was hardly some mass exodous. There are always some players who leave in a transition. Outside of Boren, I barely recall any significant people (and for the love of god do not say Mallett, kid was the most pro-style of pro-style recruits, he would have been useless to RR).

Carr's coaching tree was inept? Is this really a primary duty of a head coach? Where are all these schools that have somekind of Jesus coach from which all the rest of their future coaches are desciples? At Texas, Mack Browns protege flamed out as bad as Hoke at Florida; Florida has found no one since Urban left; LSU has no one in the waiting when Les leaves in the not too distant future; Does Tressel have a tree for OSU? Carr hired who he thought would help win games at Michigan, which he did pretty good at. But because Ron English sucked at EMU its his fault?

I won't touch the topic of "nuking RR's program" much, but there is nothing Carr did that caused RR to give up 60 points to Illinois, or get torched by a true freshman at Penn State in his 3rd year as head coach. When Carr retired he went home and sat on his ass. Would it have helped for him to be more pro-active in supporting the transition? Abosolutely, and he can take blame for that. Did it nuke RR's tenure? Not even close.

 

 

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BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 3:44 PM ^

You don't remember anyone other than Boren because a large chunk of them had already left before RichRod was hired. Look at all the players in those three classes and tell me how many left before RichRod was hired. Is the #6 class in the nation really the #6 class if half the class doesn't make it more than 2 years and the other half of the class doesn't contribute?

Joined: 06/29/2009

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Coach Carr Camp

August 24th, 2015 at 4:17 PM ^

Of the #6 class, 11 left due to injury or transfer, none as the result of RR. 

The 2006 class gave RR Carlos Brown, Steve Brown, Obi Ezeh, Brandon Graham, Greg Mathews, Brandon Minor, Jonas Mouton, Stephen Schilling.

2007 Class gave RR Junior Hemingway, David Molk, RVB, Donovan Warren, and Troy Wolfolk.

There are many other contributors within those classes, could not find a significant number of high recruits that left because of RR. Whatever remained was cerainly better than anything RR ever had at WVU. If Les Miles is our coach in 2008, we go at worst 8-4 in a rebuilding year. The problem was not crappy recruiting, it was the players were the complete opposite of what RR needed.   

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BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 6:41 PM ^

You just proved my point. Half of the #6 ranked class was no longer in Ann Arbor without RR even stepping on campus. So that class probably would have been ranked much lower than that. And all of those guys that left would be what we like to call depth. RichRod was starting a couple walk ons on the defensive side of the ball. He did that because he didn't have much to work with. Having higher ranked guys as starters is awesome until you realize that walk ons are behind them and not scholarship players. Also: Obi was not a starter by his senior year. Minor was injured for the majority of time here, just like Carlos Brown and Woolfolk. So when you have to reach like that to find contributors, it doesn't help your argument. Having 5 contributors and one borderline NFL talent on the 07 class speaks of how poor it was, not how good it was

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evenyoubrutus

August 24th, 2015 at 11:36 AM ^

It makes me sick to say this but I can't help but think that maybe we are better off in the long run that Brandon did not manage to land Harbaugh in 2011.  I wonder if Brandon's own ego and hubris would have driven Harbaugh to the NFL and the bridge would be forever burned, and Hoke would have ended up being Harbaugh's replacement.

 

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bluesparkhitsy…

August 24th, 2015 at 5:43 PM ^

Agreed. This time, the table is set for Harbaugh. It wouldn't have been four years ago. I think that once some time passes, we are going to see two clear bookends to Michigan's dark period -- the Appalachian State game, which signified to the world that Michigan had become something other than what it used to be, and last season's Minnesota game, which signified that things had become so bad that a complete reboot was needed. Even the positives that existed during those bookends were largely eclipsed by the sorry state of the program overall. Now, though, the things that caused those problems have been swept away, hopefully to never return.

Incidentally, when other schools accuse us of celebrating our "return" prematurely, they misunderstand what we are celebrating. Everyone who knows anything about football -- which happens to include a great many of us -- understands that building a championship, elite program will take time. What we're celebrating, though, is that the Leaders and Best are in charge again.



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ElBictors

August 24th, 2015 at 11:47 AM ^

I've said the same and sometimes when you have a multi-decade run it takes a few years to reconfigure and realign and the pain, while miserable, may in the end make for a more appreciative and energized fanbase.

Remember too some other 'facts' surrounding the end of the Carr era.  He was not in great health but asked to come back and be coach.  Unbeknownst to most fans and Alumni at the time, the program was in a bit of disarray and the loss to App State and weeks leading up to it now in hindsight reinforce this notion.

Even the weight room and equipment was outdated by that point.  Rich Rod and Barwis modernized the conditioning facilities and introduced some new concepts to the program.

Brandon, while an inept ass hat, did recognize how grossly M was underpaying its coaches by industry comparison and righted that (by paying the wrong guy a LOT, but still ...)

 

But this is all in the rearview now and in the past.  Better days are already here and coming!

GO BLUE!!

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Needs

August 24th, 2015 at 12:50 PM ^

This suggests way more forethought than actually existed.

Martin hired RR because he was one of the best regarded young coaches in college football and because Martin had already been turned down by his first two choices (Ferentz and Schiano, three if you include Miles). The options being bandied about when RR was hired were totally underwhelming. 

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Ty Butterfield

August 24th, 2015 at 1:42 PM ^

I agree. It would be beyond awful to have Harbaugh take the job in 2011 only to leave 4 or 5 years later because he was tired of DB's bullshit. I have no idea how long Harbaugh will stay but I think we can he pretty confident that if he leaves it will be on his terms and not because he couldn't put up with the AD.

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CorkyCole

August 24th, 2015 at 2:40 PM ^

I was going to post a comment similar to this, so I'm glad I read the comments first. There is no doubt in my mind that this would be another "49ers" situation all over again. Harbaugh needs his freedom and control, and there's no way Brandon would have been fine giving him that. I mean geez, do you honestly think Harbaugh would not only allow Brandon into his film sessions but also allow him to state his opinions/suggestions on how to run his team? Jim would throw him out after a huge yelling match no doubt, which... who can just throw their boss out of a room and not get fired? Probably Jim Harbaugh, but that's besides the point.

This is the best situation possible currently, so my hopes are that when we hire a replacement AD that he understands his role in regards to how to approach people in leadership roles and how to manage them. Sometimes the best "leaders" just need to allow other great leaders to lead. I'd say Jim fits that bill.

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BeatOSU52

August 24th, 2015 at 11:39 AM ^

So this only confirms that Brandon's ego got in the way of things again, and it also confirms the "not feeling the love" rumors before this book. I guess the one positive is Jim was able to get his shot at the NFL and hopefully won't want to go back again .

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MileHighWolverine

August 24th, 2015 at 1:09 PM ^

Unfortunately for Hoke he didn't realize that DB really couldn't take it away....once that contract was inked, we were stuck with Hoke unless he did something really ridiculous to get fired. He could have told DB to get bent all day long and DB would have been powerless to do anything about it.

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uncleFred

August 24th, 2015 at 4:19 PM ^

Brandon could have fired Hoke at any point. Hoke would have been paid for any remaining years according to the terms of his contract. Under the terms of that contract Hoke enjoyed all the necessary autonomy to do his job, but if Brandon breached that autonomy and Hoke told him to pound sand it ends up in a contract dispute. Which would have leaked and then Hoke's reputation would be sorely damaged. 

It is very unlikely that any of us will ever know exactly the degree to which Brandon interfered with Hoke's coaching. Certainly there has been a good deal of vague comments from knowledgeable people with no axe to grind that suggest there was interference and it was a problem, but at this point there is no smoking gun. 

Despite the disparagement he often suffers on this blog, Hoke still seems to me an honorable loyal ethical man, who I suspect simply tried to do his job and work around whatever political issues he encountered. I don't think he sold his soul, and I strongly doubt that, when he took the job, he anticipated tampering from above, if that indeed happened. It was his dream job, probably still is, and once he had it he tried to succeed while remaining true to himself and the values he ascribes to Michigan. 

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MileHighWolverine

August 24th, 2015 at 4:57 PM ^

I respectfully disagree......In the scenario you describe, it would be DB's reputation, and Michigan's by extension, that ends up taking the hit, not Hoke's. And when would he have fired Hoke, exactly, after the 11-2 season or after the bext one where he went 8-4? That would be a tough position to defend if you are DB given the amount of money left on the contract and what you would have had to pay for a new coach as well.

 

And even if you're right, how is Hoke's rep now? The end result is the same, reputation destroyed, so you may as well stand up for yourself. At least you go down knowing you did everything in your power to do it right instead of wondering what could have been.

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uncleFred

August 24th, 2015 at 7:49 PM ^

I understand that this runs in the face of the narrative, but he had a tough hill to climb. He failed to climb it, but almost any coach given the actual events probably would not have been much better off. If I'm an AD seeking to hire a coach, I look at many things. Yes Hoke did not meet expectations here, but he conducted himself well, ran the program and his staff professionally, did not tell tales after his departure, and dealt with a maelstrom of crap without losing his cool. Before you all get wound up about Shane's concussion, understand that an AD is going to look at the systems in place to track that and identify if the failure fell within Hoke's domain. It did not. That may not be a popular view, and the system was flawed and failed to allow for the circumstances, but that system was not under Hoke's control. Despite being sent before the firing squad, ordered to hold to a storyline that made him look a fool and a liar he went out there and took several for the team to, he thought, give the department time to sort things out. Even when he found out he'd been hung out to dry he never said a word in public. If I'm an AD I value that kind of discipline.

Big boy football is a very very tough row to hoe. Much tougher than anything most of us here face. Yes there are exceptions, but generally very few of us face that kind of pressure where if we screw up many close associates go down with us and potentially a lot of the young athletes who depend on us. If I'm an AD and Brady decides he wants to coach again and I'm not in the position to pick and choose between the handful of super star coaches, I'll give him a look.

I've never met Brady. Should I ever have the opportunity I hope he'll accept my handshake and thanks, because we would not be here with Harbaugh and a healing program without him. I hope he decides to coach again. He loves coaching and despite his results at Michigan, if he's careful I'm sure he can find a place where he can achieve success. That said, it's hard to strap up again when you get a shot at your dream give it everything you have and fail.

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