Harbaugh - For Serial?
First and foremost I support Rich Rod and am definitely in the "firing RR would do more harm than good" camp (hopefully I'm not the only member after this past weekend), but I can't believe how Jim Harbaugh has shot to the top of everyone's list for "potential replacements." Doesn't anybody remember this??
http://mgoblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/destroy-harbaugh.html
Is this the guy we really want to take over at Michigan?? I'd much rather take 7-5 seasons with the 100+ worst defense in the nation before bringing on a supposed "Michigan man" who spit on our program only 3 years ago.
(Note: If you don't get the tagline, you obviously have never heard of ManBearPig either - "the single biggest threat to our planet.")
November 1st, 2010 at 11:20 PM ^
He was given enough time to build his program and recruit his guys. Why won't you do the same for RR?
Are you comparing Stanford pre-Harbaugh to Michigan pre-RR? Please tell me you aren't...... There's about 3-4 posts in this thread that detail what Stanford was before he got there.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:41 AM ^
Well, one thing Stanford doesn't have is half the recruits for a given year flunk out.. That probably didn't help. Of course they weren't good at football either, so whatever.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:34 PM ^
If RR can go 8-5 this year, as Harbaugh did in his third season, he'll most likely be retained.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:37 PM ^
If he gets three wins in the next four games, they'll throw a parade in his honor. That would be astonishing.
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:44 AM ^
OSU alone would net him a parade.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:24 PM ^
Really? Does the Brewster comparison really make any sense at all on any level beyond a simplistic comparison of numbers?
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:45 AM ^
I don't understand this argument. Brewster and RR are contemporaries. It's not like Brewster coached 50 years ago. They've faced essentially the same competition. If RR can't match Brewster's record, at a school which has far more institutional advantages, that's incredibly worrisome.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:11 PM ^
Harbaugh doesn't have half the resume of the guy currently residing in Ann Arbor.
Really? In 18 season RR has averaged about 6.5 wins per season. In 7 season Harbaugh has averaged a little over 7 wins per season.
Let's look at "big" wins. RR had 1 signiture win while he was coach and 1 coached by someone else using his players (of course that was after he failed miserably against a bad Pitt team with a shot at the MNC on the like). In the 2006 Sugar Bowl he beat #8 Georgia and in the 2008 Fiesta Bowl Bill Stewert with RR players beat #3 Oklahoma. Harbaugh led his team to a win over #7 Oregon and a 34 point destruction of #11 USC in 2009. He also led Stanford to what might be the single greatest upset, statistically, in history by beating #2 USC in 2007. Not to mention he's beaten the Pac-10's big boy 3 out of 4 years he's been at Stanford. At Michigan, RR has 2 wins over teams that finished with (or in the case of this year, currently have) a winning record. Who has had better success against teams that are superior in talent?
RR took over a WVU program that was decent prior ot his arrival. WVU finished 7-5, 4-7, 8-4, 7-5, 8-4 in the 5 years prior to his arrival. Harbaugh took over a horrendous Stanford program that finished 1-11, 5-6, 4-7, 4-7, 2-9 prior to his arrival. I'll let you figure out which program is tougher to recruit to based on academic standards.
So, at worst, they have comparable resumes and you could argue Harbaugh has been more impressive based on where he is coaching.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:21 PM ^
Thank you for bringing out the facts to complete an argument unlike some yahoos who just curse and claim we need to wait another year.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:35 PM ^
Does...
4 conference championships in 7 years, 3 Top 10 finishes, and 2 BCS bowl appearances (both wins, however he left before the second bid) hold any water with you then?
I think his track record deserves another year.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:40 PM ^
We need to see him post success here at Michigan. He doesn't have Jeff Casteel as his right-hand man anymore.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:58 PM ^
Don't disagree in the least, particularly in regards to Casteel. Let's not forget, CasteeI wasn't exactly Jeff Casteelbefore he joined Rich either. Im simply stating that I think his track record affords him another year.
November 2nd, 2010 at 12:20 AM ^
If he doesn't win some of the next four games, no, it doesn't. We're not in the Big East, it's not 2007, and the zone read is no longer an exotic new offensive wrinkle. He needs to show some success at this school to give the fans hope. The early struggles of another offensive-minded coach from the Big East (Brian Kelly) aren't helping his cause any.
Casteel has continued to thrive without RR. The reverse is not true. The knock on RR - that he's more a glorified OC than a good all-around HC - has not been refuted to date.
November 2nd, 2010 at 8:33 AM ^
He had one great year at a BCS level college. Butch Jones probably did better at CMU than BK and nothing has changed at GVSU since he left.
Our O has improved significantly since RR has been here and it helps that he has a lot of players in there second and third year in the program. Lets look at the D without Mike Martin per most of Iowa and PSU. Dline- Banks( fifth year first season starting not good), Sagesse (fifth year never been a starter), RVB (RS Jr. acceptable, but IMO Roh would be better here with RVB in Banks place). LB- Demens (RS soph these were his first two starts), Mouton (no excuse- just doesn't get it most of the time), Roh (true soph better suited to DE). Secondary- Rogers (fifth year probably shouldn't be on the field), Cam (RS frosh played WR last year) Floyd (RS soph- doesn't have a full year in as a starter), Vinopal (true frosh) Kovacs ( walk on great head & heart lacks speed), everyone else is a true frosh or walk on. The D wasn't expected to be good before Woolfolk went down and Turner and Emilien left. Throw in BooBoo getting the boot and we are where we are defensively. Where are the upperclassman?
I understand it's the coach's responsibility, yet at the same time there were needs on the offensive side of the ball his first full recruiting year because of the switch in offensive philosophies. He recruited heavy to the defensive side last year and I believe this class will also end up with more players on the D side of the ball. Hopefully, one or two of them can be playmakers because that is what is lacking.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:52 AM ^
"Where are the upperclassmen?" is not necessarily an argument in RR's favor. He's had a terrible attrition rate every year. Should we expect that rate to suddenly stop all of a sudden?
And the point of the Kelly comparison is this: the fact that two Big East coaches have moved up the food chain and experienced disastrous results has to cast doubt on how relevant Big East records really are. Maybe we should stop looking at the BE as a BCS conference and starting looking at it as not much more than a MAC-caliber league. If the only plausible argument for keeping RR here is that he won at a Big East school, he won't be retained. We need to see him win at Michigan, period.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:22 AM ^
"Does...
4 conference championships in 7 years, 3 Top 10 finishes, and 2 BCS bowl appearances (both wins, however he left before the second bid) hold any water with you then?"
It doesn't hold any water with me because he was in the BIG LEAST. Does anyone remember when the conference had to play all their games on Wednesday and Thursdays to get any national attention? And Louisville and Rutgers actually somehow bloated to the #1 and #2 spots? That conference is nothing but 7 completely mediocre football programs with no football tradition and 1 school that had Pat White and Steve Slaton for a few years.
Michigan could win 4 conference championships in 7 years if we got to play UConn-esque teams over and over every year... and the Voters always will put the Big East conference champion in the top 10 just to get a tv rating for the bowl games... Give me a break. The Big East is the worst AQ conference in the nation. The MWC is a better conference... albeit the best teams are all leaving for greener pastures... and by greener I mean more money.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:46 AM ^
Who is that you're talking about? From what I heard, the current Michigan coach hasn't won a single conference championship. Hell, he's only won 4 games in three years. The current coach has the worst record in the history of the winningest program ever. More on his "track record"? Ok...His defensive recruits have disappeared from the team. He's garnered NCAA sanctions. He's lost every game to our top two rivals. Does that "hold any water" with you?
C'mon now...Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game for Polk High, but that doesn't mean he can do it at Michigan.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:30 PM ^
Don't confuse the discussion with facts.
RR has gotten a lot of mileage out of that win over Georgia five years ago. Other than that, his big conference showdowns were against Rutgers and Louisville (especially after VA Tech and Miami left the conference). That's just not the same as playing OSU, Penn State and Wisconsin (or Oregon and USC) every year.
November 2nd, 2010 at 12:55 AM ^
When VA Tech, Miami, and BC were still in the Big East, RichRod had more BE titles than VA Tech and BC combined. Don't act like his teams weren't good before they left.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:04 AM ^
It is true, though, that he became significantly more successful from 2005 on, when those schools left the conference. Prior to then he went 3-8, 9-4, 8-5 and 8-4. After he went 11-1, 11-2 and 10-2.
In any event, the bigger issue I have is that he no longer has Jeff Casteel, and while Casteel has continued to do well in RR's absence, the reverse has not been true.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:50 PM ^
Your first paragraph isn't really proving much. With a sample size of over two times the person he's being compared to, some regression to the mean is expected, the fact that he's only about .5 games behind Harbaugh with 11 additional trials is actually slightly in RichRod's favor.
/Statsnerd
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:28 AM ^
Couple that with his bonehead comments and hot head attitude and I think we have a winner!!! (Yes, I'm being sarcastic)
November 2nd, 2010 at 6:59 AM ^
There is no comparison. Harbaugh hasn't won anything. Harbaugh hasn't even won a bowl game let alone a BCS bowl game! Don't even try and compare these two programs. Stanford is a nice story this year and might play in a BCS bowl game but they couldn't even win the Sun Bowl last year so lets not jump the gun on Harbaugh's Stanford run being comparable to RR's West Virginia run.
West Virginia had a team that could have won a national title in 2007 if it wasn't for a late season Pat White injury. Stanford has a long way to go before they reach that level of success. Lets not forget that Rich Rod in a short time did things that had never happend in the history of West Virginia football. He had them ranked higher than ever before in their entire history. So comparing Stanford to West Virginia isn't as easy as pointing to academics. West Virginia's most successful seasons were under Rich Rod. Harbaugh hasn't even won a bowl game let alone had the most successful seasons in his school's history.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:56 AM ^
Actually, Stanford only needs to go 3-1 the rest of the way to match WVU's 2007 record. That's very possible for them. And they are competing in a far tougher conference than the post-Miami/VT Big East.
November 2nd, 2010 at 4:17 PM ^
West Virginia PLAYED for the National Title after the 1988 season. They didn't beat Notre Dame, but technically that's close to a National Championship than losing before you can play for it. They also went 11-1 in 1993, so that at least matches the best Rich put out. He had some of their most successful seasons, yes. But it wasn't like W. Virginia was a football wasteland for it's entire history, and he's the only one who ever made them any good.
November 2nd, 2010 at 4:23 PM ^
Well, they're not comparable, seeing as Harbaugh has only been there about half as long at this point.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:11 PM ^
Harbaugh doesn't have half the resume of the guy currently residing in Ann Arbor.
I have some issues with Harbaugh as a person, but his track record is impressive. At USD he went 7-4, 11-1 and 11-1. Then he went to Stanford, inherited a 1-11 team, and has gone 4-8, 5-7, 8-5 and 7-1. He may take them to a BCS bowl. At this point his résumé is not that different from RR's before he arrived here.
As for RR, at Michigan we've learned about his shortcomings on the defensive side of the ball that we did not know about three years ago. Without Jeff Casteel, he's been unable to field a quality defense. Maybe Harbaugh has his own coaching Achilles heel that we don't know about yet. We'll see.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:34 PM ^
He hasn't been able to let go of Jeff Casteel aparently, because he keeps trying to make coordinators into him.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:19 PM ^
At this point I'd try anything. Bring Lloyd Carr back for all I care. This RR experiment isnt working and Harbaugh is looking real good right about now.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:29 PM ^
This is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read. Let him take care of the defense. If we failbomb last year... sure fire thim, but come on!
I cannot stand these sorts of fans.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:31 PM ^
How many more years do we give him to fix the D?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:32 PM ^
Next year is it. Look at this offense. He has it down. We just need an average defense. You would forsake this offense at this point?
Not to mention... recruiting apocalypse all over again.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:43 PM ^
A recruiting apocalypse could happen when you bring back a lame duck coach because you want to give him "one more year." You don't think that will be used against us in recruiting?
November 1st, 2010 at 11:11 PM ^
Illinois is picked by most to beat us and they had the lamest of lame duck coaches. And they lost their season opener. What turned things around? Their defense. Their offense sucks, but is manageable enough.
And with recruiting, we had to fight all those "Lloyd is gonna retire next year" rumors and still had some decent teams. Negative recruitig happens all the time, regardless of the coaching situation.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:23 PM ^
I would be okay with us going the Illinois route (assuming that we make a bowl), but RR has to give the DC room to do what he wants. He's got to realize that the way he's been handling defense is going to do him in. The problem is, how does Brandon get this message to him without micromanaging?
November 1st, 2010 at 11:03 PM ^
I can maybe understand (while I have a hard time agreeing with) the folks who want to give RR another year...although they're insane if they say it doesn't matter how this season ends. BUT, please...can everyone please stop the talk of "recruiting will suffer" with a coaching change??? It just isn't accurate. We might lose a couple of players, but will likely pick up others excited to play for a different coach. Even Harbaugh (he of the opposite offensive style) has offers out to roughly half of our current commits. Most of these kids are coming to Michigan, not RichRod.
Let me just close with a quote from our most prized recruit, Dee Hart, speaking about a possible coaching change:
"I liked Michigan either way and if he were to leave it wouldn't affect me because I think I can play in any offensive system," Hart said. "So it really wasn't my concern."
November 1st, 2010 at 10:37 PM ^
IF RR gets canned, what if Harbaugh says no? Who then?
November 1st, 2010 at 10:38 PM ^
Has already turned it down once.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:14 PM ^
He's never been offered the job. He wasn't on our radar three years ago, when he had one year of experience at this level.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:39 PM ^
I spy 3 mid majors in the top ten rankings. I'm sure one of them has to like money.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:15 PM ^
Zwaag, you sure you didn't get lost on the way to the Alabama blogs? : P
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:32 AM ^
Do you even have 3 years in of watching college football in general? I don't think you do.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:21 PM ^
Fuck Jim Harbaugh. He coaches Stanford, RR coaches Michigan. Sorry for this post not being very articulate but it is short and to the point.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:29 PM ^
I'm only concerned with coaches who coach at Michigan.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^
We had a discussion in the thread Replacement Coaches on Harbaugh and this particular subject. I said it there and I will say it again. My view is if we let Coach Rod go, the last person I want is Harbaugh. I would vote Dan Mullen.
November 2nd, 2010 at 12:38 AM ^
I support RR, but if they naysayers have their way and want to let RR go, then Dan Mullen would be a good choice. Croomes didn't do much with Miss. State, and Mullen has them turning the corner already. There just isn't a high ceiling at MSU.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^
Well in 4 weeks we will be talking about no coaches who coach at Michigan cause this one will be fired. I can forgive Harbaugh if he picks Michigan over the NFL, either way I think its Harbaughs last year at Stanford.
November 1st, 2010 at 11:39 PM ^
I think the fact that Harbaugh has other options could play into the decision making process. We have absolutely no idea what DB thinks about the situation. He hasn't come out with a ringing endorsement of RR so it looks like he's at least keeping his options open.
If DB thinks that Harbaugh is a long term better fit at Michigan, he might HAVE to do something this year before he gets away. If Harbaugh takes another job (Cowboys, Panthers...) he'll be off the market for a while.
Of course, it's entirely possible that DB thinks that Harbaugh is a jackass and would never hire him at Michigan. It'll be interesting to see how the next four weeks play out.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:30 PM ^
Harbaugh brings inspiration for all lifelong michigan wolverine fans because we know he understands what michigan football is all about. He played for Bo and yes he's a hot head but so was Bo. We would not miss a beat in recruiting if harbaugh came here and even if we did he would still be able to get the most out of the players he had. Harbaugh maybe took some shots at our program but what were those exactly? and maybe he was correct on some of them? Maybe humbling ourselves wouldnt hurt too much. The "We are michigan and nobody can talk shit about us" attitude hasn't really been helping. Harbaugh can say whatever he wants about michigan right now and im fine with it, our program really is in the dumps, he's calling a spade a spade. But I think he also would be the best to turn it around. Just my thoughts.
November 1st, 2010 at 10:43 PM ^
Totally agree w/ this. You need to take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward.