Meta: Michigan fans who think Rodriguez should be fired and their place in this community
In short, what is it? We've had a few users that fit this description, most memorably Tom Hagan and the guy who went off the hinges in the Conway commitment post. Just about all those who come in here with the same opinion sooner or later have pretty big meltdowns and get banned. I'm not sure if that reflects more on the board and the fact that their arguments are scrutinized far more than the average comment or on people who hold that opinion.
Depending on the outcome of the allegations presented today and if the early season goes worse than expected it's not hard to see this board getting pretty divisive and pretty ugly. In the past I think Brian's policy of raising point requirements to post has been useful. Also, a personal suggestion that could be helpful: don't negbang people you simply disagree with, this seems to invite meltdowns. IMO it's important that any Michigan fan with a thoughtful and respectful argument feel welcome on the board.
More broadly should reasoned criticism of Rodriguez be welcomed, viewed with suspicion, or what?
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:29 PM ^
I just do not see any reason why he should be fired right now. Yes, he went 8-16 in his first two seasons. However, Misopogon detailed the recruiting issues and deficiencies that contributed to that. The reason I neg most of these comments is that they revolve around the idea Michigan deserves better or we demand excellence. This simply has no place in the argument in my opinion.
Is Michigan a superior university with superior standards? Yes you bet. But, Rich Rodriguez has done nothing to change that. Every major college program has gone through some down years. Just because it was 40 years since our last one does not mean it was never going to happen again. We live in the real world not some idealized fantasy college sports world. This isn't NCAA Football 2010. Greatness comes and goes. I believe that Rich Rod will get us back to greatness. If you do not believe that then thats fine. Just give a better reason than we deserve better or you demand excellence.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:06 PM ^
Now prepare to be labeled an apologist by those who feel that M "deserves better".
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:07 PM ^
a demand for excellence?
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:15 PM ^
When Steven Threet is running a newly installed spread option offense, yes. When we have a freshman quarterback and Jordan Kovacs is starting because we have no depth in year two of a new coach, yes.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^
I think this argument is a little too broad. I'm sure you believe that Michigan has some standard that coaches should be held to. The questions are just "what is that standard" and "how long should Rodriguez have to reach it?"
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:21 PM ^
I agree with that. I also think coaching 2 years is not enough time to judge. His first recruiting arent even seniors yet. I am of the opinion that every new coach should get 4 years minimum to install their offense and philosophy.
That being said, if RR goes 4-8 or 5-7 next year and is fired I would have a hard time arguing with that. But saying he should be fired after 2 years because he hasn't won 8 games a season is ridiculous in my opinion.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:06 PM ^
Just take a quick look at my point score and know that no matter how rational, reasoned, thoughtful or correct my views, I get negbombed, period. Some say they negbomb me for other reasons. Not so, it's cause I don't join the whole RR circle the wagons camp.
My view on RR is the same as it has: results matter. Results speak for themselves. 3 years in and it's reasonable to expect 15 wins!!!! Plus, I don't think he's a good fit for Michigan, for reasons I've explained before and have been negbombed for.
Plus plus...know this has nothing to do with these absolutely bogus workout 'violations' which do nothing but make a joke of the NCAA, its rules, its feudalistic system etc etc etc and are an absolute joke and reveal just how much personal views, likes and dislikes play into NCAA decision-making.
Out.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:11 PM ^
Hes only coached here for 2 years. And you get negged for this type of comment because you sound like We Deserve better contigent here when you say:
"3 years in and it's reasonable to expect 15 wins!!!!"
You fail to address the drastic change in personnel and scheme. If you think Rich Rod is not a great fit, sobeit. Just explain why without the we deserve better mantra.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:31 PM ^
Perhaps you could explain why 7-8 wins would be reasonable with:
* Threet and Sheridan driving in '08.
* Two true freshmen driving in '09.
* A depleted upperclass talent pool, as reflected by the '09 draft and (most likely) those of '10 and '11.
Well?
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 PM ^
I like the way you already set the table for next year's excuse.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:39 PM ^
Results matter? Oh, is that it; I guess I should have been thinking a bit harder these past couple of years. Come on Brian, you can do better than this in terms of analysis. Honestly, where is your ability to look at actual context (see Threet, Steven or your projected four year starter in Arkansas, for heaven's sake)versus just simple expectation. Don't cloak that as "rational, reasoned...[or]...thoughtful". That's weak and limited analysis and as a reader on the blog I expect better; that's why folks are hitting you with the negs.
February 24th, 2010 at 1:46 PM ^
I'll spare you the entire top-ten list of reasons to neg you. But high on that list, at least for me, is the "martyr" line you push again and again: "I'm gonna get negbombed because I speak unpleasant truths, and you all can't handle the truth!!!" Try a few posts without that line, and then you can work on breaking some of your other bad habits.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:50 PM ^
I support him until either they fire him or he retires. It's not up to me to make that decision so until someone does, I support our coach.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:04 PM ^
RR has been an uncomfortable fit since day one. All the mini-scandals have contributed toward a negative attitude by a lot of diehard M fans, too.
I think RR's trying to gain his footing, and I'd like to see him arrive at a place of confident assurance in Ann Arbor, but there are so many "higher-ups" who don't want him there that it will be tough for him to stay long term, unless he has a an unbelievably successful season or two.
I remain skeptical (but hopeful) about his offensive scheme in the Big 10. Wins will determine his longevity and his recalcitrance to alter his philosophy to ft his players strengths (refer to season one) is problematic.
I do feel that he's the victim of a witch hunt, however. Also, he's in a tough career spot. His market value right now is dropping, and the only way to get another offer (if he's interested in doing so), is to post wins and run a clean program.
It will be interesting.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:12 PM ^
You can see it in RR's face. He is done. He might as well resign. I would have more respect for him if he did.
February 24th, 2010 at 8:18 AM ^
What are you basing that on? He didn't look that way to me yesterday.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:17 PM ^
Folks lose their minds if you say anything negative about the football program. Civility doesn't matter. Good argument doesn't matter. If you want points (hell, even I recovered from -400), post things like:
-Barwais is magic!
-RichRod has a keen eye for sleeper recruits!
-The Freep is the de-vol!
-Any other coach would also have finished last in the Big Ten with our team last year!
-This one kid, on his Facebook page, said he was eating pizza!
You'll soon have plenty of points to burn if you want to post a fair criticism of the football program.
...Unless folks have a good sense of humor today, I feel a tumble coming.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:18 AM ^
I thought your comment was funny and pretty spot-on, but I disagree with this part: "Civility doesn't matter. Good argument doesn't matter." I've seen plenty of posters survive negative comments because of civility and good argument. Then there's folks like Jay-Z above that say stupid stuff like "Rich Rod is done, and despite what the AD said this morning, I know he is going to be fired because of his facial expression." Sometimes I think some people enjoy the animosity they feel when they post contentious things.
February 24th, 2010 at 9:54 AM ^
...but for each one of those, you'll likely find five "If you don't love RR, you're a fucking douche and Michigan doesn't need you as a fan anyway".
February 24th, 2010 at 11:55 AM ^
-Barwais is magic!that wouldn't get by the spelling nazis
-This one kid, on his Facebook page, said he was eating pizza!most people get negged for weird facebook stalking
Folks lose their minds if you say anything negative about the football program. Civility doesn't matter. Good argument doesn't matter.yeah, sometimes it doesn't matter how civil of an argument you're making - if it's a retread, people are not going to be happy with you. sometimes the neg really means "not this shit again".
February 24th, 2010 at 1:04 PM ^
It's so funny that you claim restating an argument against RR deserves a neg. So...what about the majority of posters restating an argument in favor of RR? Oh yeah, that gets a plus because RR is magic too. For example, in reading your earlier post about how we might not end up with any major violations, I was thinking, "Not this shit again".
February 24th, 2010 at 5:07 PM ^
i did not say that restating an argument deserves a neg. i was merely pointing out that is what will happen. whether deserved or not, that is why those sorts of posts get negged.
i don't think there is a lot of up-voting for retread unrealistically positive posts. i actually get pretty bored of people saying silly things like "when RR is winning his second consecutive NC in 2014".
regardless, i don't normally up or down vote for pro or anti RR stuff. here are my general voting heuristics:
up-vote if
-i laughed audibly
-well reasoned argument
-the post has been negged for no apparent reason
neg if
-personal attack
-post makes me feel like i'm reading comments on freep.com or espn.com or any other worthless place to read comments
-poster didn't get an obvious joke
-poster states opinion as fact
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:33 PM ^
The problem with Tom Hagan and that other guy (possibly a Sparty) who came on after Alabama won the NC gloating about Nick Saban being a "real coach," was just that: they were gloating. We were heartbroken about the end of the season and they were basically rubbing it in. When I was a young lad (in Ireland tending to my sheep), my daddy taught me to never speak too soon (i.e. talk trash before it's over) and not to rub salt in fresh wounds. Shit, I guess those Big East commercials were right after all.
I guess it was personal, not business? Okay that was stupid.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:21 AM ^
I just want to say the second part of your sig made me laugh a lot.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:22 AM ^
I fully expect him to get his 6 yrs fulfilled (absent ncaa major viol) and if he doesn't win a B10 title or beat osu, he will get a hand shake, a token watch or parka without a buyout or lawsuit (hopefully). Nevertheless, I hope the admin and public gives him a chance and conversely they don't prematurely "reward" him with a contract extension if he exceeds their expectations (see John Beilein).
February 24th, 2010 at 8:30 AM ^
I think we'll take a major violation for the QCs coaching thing, BUT Rich Rod will not be fired.
At this point, the University knows what happened, and David Brandon has said Rich is the coach. So it comes down to future performance as measured by wins and losses versus reasonable expectations while maintaining a clean program with no more accidental violations.
By the way: the buck stops at Bill Martin. It was his QC staff who let this happen (who let the football team go a whole season without filing CARA forms). It was his football coaching staff whose administrative department failed to file forms, figure out the QCs weren't supposed to coach, and ensure compliance.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:00 AM ^
You said he'll fulfill his 6 years absent NCAA major violations. Ummm?? Uh...?
You do realize we're now facing 5 major violations, right?
That doesn't mean I think too much practice is the worst thing in the world, but they did slap the label "major" onto the allegations. RR (unless he wins 8) will be fired after (or during) the upcoming season. Whether the violations were terrible or not, the stain must be removed.
Even more bizarre is that you rip Beilein (who, despite sucking this year, has improved the program greatly), but have much love for RR who has brought us shame on and off the field. What gives? Why only a critical eye toward bball?
February 24th, 2010 at 12:03 PM ^
You do realize we're now facing 5 major violations, right?potential. also, could be 0 major violations. this makes you sound like a headline writer.
RR who has brought us shame on and off the fieldhigh horse retread. this is an old and vague and overly dramatized statement. be forewarned: these things a negbang invite. although, i will give you credit for ending your post with a good point about his hard-to-tell-what-he's-trying-to-say beilein comparison.
February 24th, 2010 at 1:01 PM ^
It's bad enough that we're facing 5 major violations (even if only "major" in technical NCAA terms), but thinking that we're going to argue them down to zero is farcical. It just won't happen. I'm a realist, not a headline writer.
You think saying "RR has brought shame" is overly dramatized? Really? The worst record in 50 years. Last place in the Big Ten. NCAA violations. That isn't shame to you? What is?
February 24th, 2010 at 5:05 PM ^
saying things like "feel free to open your eyes" does not help a rational argument. it just serves as an opener to your post that says "i'm right and you're wrong".
i don't think we're going to argue them down to zero. but stating that we're facing 5 major violations is a simplification. the fact is that we're facing 5 potential major violations. or, rather, we're potentially facing 5 major violations. i'm all for being a realist, but let's state facts here.
if you feel that the ncaa will end up ruling that all 5 violations constitute major infractions, then fine. just don't state opinion as fact.
shame? really? a bad record in football evokes such emotions as shame? here's my opinion. i don't think that losing games where our players are trying hard brings shame to the university. shame would come from doing things like sexually abusing a child or beating a woman. shame is when you're afraid to show your face. it sucks that we're losing games right now, but i've never felt ashamed of being a michigan fan.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:24 PM ^
C'mon!
I don't think it so terrible to ask you to "open your eyes" when you are claiming that we aren't facing 5 major violations. That is exactly the NCAA allegation (whether we personally find them "major" is a side point). They are already calling them "major". It's like saying "we didn't land on the moon".
As for the record...You seem unfazed by the record, but very concerned about child/domestic abuse. Do you post comments on domestic/child abuse blogs? How many? I'd bet that you spend more time worrying about Michgan football than domestic abuse. As for "shame"...no one is ashamed to be a Michigan fan, but plenty are ashamed of what RR has done to the program.
February 24th, 2010 at 6:48 PM ^
the violations aren't RR's doing, they are systemic, they have to do with AD administration of compliance, these aren't things RR 'brought' to us, at least not entirely his fault, so to act like he alone is at fault belies a basic misunderstanding of the situation.
Nor did he 'bring' us to our current record. He is rebuilding a football team and modernizing it to compete over the long term. The program was in decline before he got here and you can say what you want, but if UM had hired from within and continued with the then current direction of the program, you would be looking at a slower, longer term decline to a state where you would then be right back in the rebuilding process we are in right now, only you would have much further to climb. I remember some pretty shameful moments prior to RR getting here and I didn't throw my loyalty into the bin and start whining about the state of the program. I redoubled my loyalty.
Shame - to me - is a segment of fans that turn on their own program when it needs them most. Fans that actively assist in hurting the program b/c they don't get quiet as many W as they are used to and who don't take the time to really understand a situation before being quick to judge and to anger and who swallow every last bit of drivel from a biased press source and then back the paper when it turns out that their story was a massively overblown hit job, rather than admit that perhaps they are just the kind of fans that M doesn't need around anyway.
February 24th, 2010 at 7:55 PM ^
I didn't think it possible, but perhaps you are beyond a mere blind loyalist. You state, "Nor did he 'bring' us to our current record." Really? I think wacky things like...history and facts would disagree. Who did bring that record? Moses? Drew Sharp? Carl Lewis?
We are all Michigan fans, but some of us...cough, cough, you, cough...refuse to stare reality in the face. It isn't the biased media that hurt our record. It isn't the biased media leveling violations against us. RichRod didn't find himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one is to blame other than the program itself, headed by RichRod.
Worst of all, fans like you, fail to see the difference between the coach and the team. You root for the coach at the expense of the team and the university. I root for THE TEAM.
February 24th, 2010 at 7:18 PM ^
The program has been in decline for some time and was going to need to go through a rebuilding process at some point. You can go on about what might have been with another coach, but I do think that the program needed a massive infusion of change or it would have continued to decline and inevitably it would have had to go through the same process that it is now, only it would be digging out of a deeper hole.
RR did not single handedly over the last 5-6 years put the program in a position where it needed to be re-built.
Remember, there were some pretty shameful moments prior to RR arrival also, the only differenc ebeing that there were some more wins against middling to lower opponents that let people think M was still at an elite level.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:30 AM ^
After watching the video of last nights victors rally I was encouraged by what I saw which is a passionate coach who wants nothing more than to restore UM to greatness. If this team cares for this coach in the least they will rally around him when he needs them the most. Controversies like this tend to bring teams closer together. Us against the world mentality can be dangerous. Go Blue
February 24th, 2010 at 1:39 AM ^
As a Michigan man let me say this:
I absolutely hope I turn out to be 100% wrong about RR.
February 24th, 2010 at 3:02 AM ^
and have rooted for UM ever since I was 8 years old. I will always support my team and give the coach a fair chance. I like winning and have had many years of winning since following the team from the early 70s...but I know every major football program will go through some lean years. You cannot blame entirely the current state of the team on RR, and I hope he can rebuild our team. A fair evaluation will come when RR's first full recruiting class are seniors in 2012! The defense is young and should improve, and hopefully Tate and D. Robinson will continue to develop as spread QB's and lead us to our first winning season under RR in 2010. But there is a chance of finishing 2010 sub .500. If RR does finish the 2010 season 5-7 once again he should get 2011 to get at least 8 wins and perhaps 9 or more wins in 2012. By 2012...RR's senior class...we should be competing for a b10 championship and hopefully break the losing streak to OSU.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:24 AM ^
I agreed with everything you said... but what does it have to do with being a graduate?
February 24th, 2010 at 1:30 PM ^
I like this post because we are all Michigan Fans here. We should be able to debate with each other without getting booted or negged beyond belief because when it comes to the end of the day we are all on the same team here. Go Blue... And lets hope we can win the Big Ten Tourny and the CCHA Tourny
February 24th, 2010 at 7:32 PM ^
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