And now you're just arguing something completely different.
He's arguing that just because KC was able to turn a terrible pick into a decent bullpen pitcher shouldn't be proof of great planning by the KC administration. He could have drafted Evan Longoria, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Lincecum, Max Scherzer, hell Ian Kennedy and gotten a better return.
KC is doing a better job drafting now, but it remains a team that finally started to play well after decades of being terrible. Let's see if they can continue to be competitive in the coming years before we crown them.
And again, I'm not talking about how KC's organization is run, I'm talking strictly about how they built their bullpen, and it's undeniable that they've built a great one while the Tigers have....struggled in this regard, to say the least. Dave thought that throwing money, or overpaying with prospects, would solve this problem. As someone said below, having a multitude of internal options is how you account for the variance of bullpen performances.
i would take him over the entire royal bullpen, especially the past 3-4 years.
KC spent nearly 2 decades being anywhere from average to terrible. Congrats - they had enough bad draft picks that they turned into bullpen guys.
I hate people pulling out KC as some model of how a team should be run. They finally field a competent team and now all of a sudden they are a model franchise? Please. St. Louis has been consistently good AND built for the future. Detroit isn't St. Louis, and that should be the goal. Sucking long enough that math ultimately gives you enough studs to win isn't a plan.
Man people sure like to read things that aren't there. I'm talking SOLELY about building a bullpen. I don't care what KC did for the 30 years prior, they've built a great bullpen and did it not with expensive FAs and trades. I also used KC as an example because they're a team we see frequently. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples (Cardinals being one) of teams that built quality bullpens from primarily internal options.
Was Wade Davis a high draft pick? Failed starters-turned-ace relivers don't have to be former #1 picks dude.
Wade Davis was a 3rd rounder (75th overall). Pretty high pick in baseball.
It takes more than a closer to make a good bullpen.
Agree 100%. I remember the Tigers prior to his arrival, and I give him complete credit for making this a great team to watch for quite a while. Not everything worked out, but I for one appreciated what he did for the tigs.
Does anyone have any idea where he might be headed?
Boston duh.
is my guess
Any more Original Six teams left... lets see Chicago...Montreal.. well he was already there and cant go back ..
I hope this builds us for the future but I fear this could be the final straw and send us back to the basement.
It's scary think of a return to the bad days
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
This is an awful move. I still remember 2003 unlike most of you.
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This is the worst possible thing that could have happened. Sure fire Hall Of Famer GM.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDGE
How is Avila a better option?!?! HOW?
I'm not happy right now. This is awful.
I seriously might cry. I may never see my favorite pro team win a championship in my life... He took us to TWO World Series. This is awful.
Hahaha, agree 100%.
Ahhhhhh, reminds me of a certain football team that suffered years of mediocrity until they hired a coach that sent them to 2 NFC Conference Championships and 1 Super Bowl, and they inexplicably fired him because he didn't win a Super Bowl.
That team has about as bleak a future as the Tigers right now.
I do as well. However, not many others seem to remember the Bobby Higginson days.
TONY CLARK
TRAVIS FRYMAN
JUAN GONZALES
ROBERT FICK
FUCK MY BALLS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T COBBLE TOGETHER A GOOD BULLPEN.
For some reason I have a very specific memory of watching Game 162 in 2003 on the shitty TV in the lobby of University Towers, with Mike Maroth getting the W and the Tigers avoiding breaking the Mets record for most losses in a season. As shitty as that season was, the last week when the Tigers went something like 5-1 to avoid breaking the Mets record was kind of awesome in its own way.
Whoa there. Travis Fryman was awesome. Fryman was of a totally different Tigers era than the doldrums. That was the "score will be 10-8, win or lose" heyday, which was kind of fun.
It's not even about 2003. I'm grateful to have a Tigers team that isn't the Randy Smith era of the late '90s. That was a totally directionless franchise with no plan and no ambition and no capability of doing anything but spinning its wheels. It was a lost decade. DD had the franchise in position every year, which is all I ever ask - the rest is just up to execution.
I remember Omar Olivares as our #1 starter.
My best guess is that Mike decided he didn't like being a seller and is trying to salvage the season. Which, if true, is insane.
My initial reaction is that Ilitch has gone off the rails.
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Anyone who things the Tigers were wrong to sell is a f'ing MORON.
If DD was fired for selling, then f*** the Tigers. It was the right thing to do.
FWIW I just saw a quote from "Mike" saying that DD was released from his contract to allow him to pursue other opportunities. Everyone knows he has them. Perhaps this is just a semi-amicable parting at the end of a long stint. Might as well cut the cord now--DD did a good job selling, so he was faithful to the end.
I don't expect Al Avila to have this job next year.
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Article on Freep says Avila signed a long term contract with the Tigers.
http://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2015/08/04/al-avila-detroi…
It also says that the Tigers denied permission to the Mariners (2008) and the Angels (2011) to interview Avila for a GM spot.
Maybe Dombrowski always intended to leave after his contract was up after this year? I hope that's the case because the Tigers firing Dombrowski is dumb, IMO.
Probably, but which Ilitch?
It's no secret that Mike Ilitch is not very healthy right now--he hasn't been seen in public more than once or twice in 2015. So the question is who is in charge right now making these decisions? Is it still Mike, or is it Christopher, who might care a little less about winning and a little more about keeping his money?
Your guess is insane, and therefore almost surely not true. What do you want Avila to say? "I think my team should give up!"
More likely, DD has other opportunities for more money, Illitch is disappointed with some of the moves last few years (e.g., Fielder, Fister, Price, Nathan, Soria) and the lack of talent development in the organization, or some combination of the above.
My guess is that Illitch expressed some frustrations, DD said "I'm not feeling the love/respect I deserve" and now is about as good of a time as any to make a move.
What else can he say? Lots of things: "We are going to build a team that will win championships." "We have a bright future." Even, "We can win baseball games this year." But he was a whole lot more specific than that. It sounds to me like the Tigers might try to buy at the waiver deadline.
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although improbable. what if the following happens:
1. verlander and sanchez pitch closer to 2013 levels
2. norris becomes a solid #3 SP down the stretch
3. simon and #5 SP don't impload. help from lobstein
4. cabrera comes back in a week or two and the tigers score runs at toronto or ny levels
5. wilson does well in the closer role
6. rondon figures it out and hardy continues to pitch well in set up role.
all these things are possible. if 2/3 of these pan out, detroit could make up 4-5 games on the field and make the playoffs. that would be something, especially if they were to face off against price and the blue jays in the wild card game.
That wasn't a fire sale. They traded 3 guys, all them expiring contracts, and added - what - 6 of their top 15 prospects? The 76ers this isn't.
Agreed it was an "admission of futility" of sorts, but was also a realistic assesment. The Tigers odds of making the playoffs dipped from something like 8% to 4% I read. So you can argue their odds this season didn't change dramatically.
And you can back that claim up. We're talking about guys who offer a difference of 1 or 2 wins for the rest of the year - easily made up for by simple luck. Furthermore, Norris is only a half step back from what Smyly offered Tampa Bay in terms of immediate help when they traded Price a year ago. The actual difference in performance was negligible between the two in 2014. Dombrowski probably noticed that and thought it was worth a shot. Where the Tigers would really miss Price and those other guys is the playoffs...
The Tigers aren't going to buy at the deadline and it would be insane for them to do so barring an incredible hot streak over the next few weeks.
The idea that Dombrowski acted on his own valition without approval from his his boss is...insane, as you said.
But don't mistake that term for a critique. My reading of your comment suggests that you perceive me to be critical of the trades in some way. That would be inaccurate--I thought they were good trades and that selling was absolutely the right move. As you've observed, the chances of them making the playoffs were and are spectacularly small. Getting assets like this was something that was desperately needed.
Which is why I found Avila's "strong push" comment disconcerting. Yes, there is a slim chance that JV gets totally right AND Norris stays strong AND Miggy comes back feeling great AND the bullpen fixes itself AND the guys in the outfield produce AND Castellanos continues to show growth AND the team comes together, gets hot, and passes a bunch of other teams.
But it's not likely, and a GM talking about a "strong push" sort of implies his own involvement, and his activity right now should be entirely focused on what's best for the team after 2015.
Dombrowski said he got approval from the higher ups, and I have no reason to doubt it. I am not suggesting that he went over their heads. However, I do wonder if there is some seller's remorse going on.
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You're one of the best baseball posters on MGoBlog, but I think you're reading waaaay too much into the "we want to win this year" comments.
Those are just platitudes for players and fans, given they were 3 GB. Even in his press conference, Avila said he agreed with the decision to sell.