NewBlue7977

January 23rd, 2024 at 10:17 PM ^

I am perfectly fine with Moore as the head coach.  I am actually more fine with it now then "4 months ago".  My hope is that he is better than Shaw, especially years after Harbaugh has been gone, because it means he has proven himself to lead Michigan to 10, 11 or 12 win regular seasons with the occasional 9 win year.  

Joined: 04/25/2018

MGoPoints: 3342

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 8:55 PM ^

Lucky to have that great run? What's our equivalent? Top 3 finish in b1g ten and lose 2-3 games every year?

If you had a magic crystal ball that said hire Moore and he will be our shaw, I'd say hard pass. I am really at a loss what everyone is so excited about with shaw. The 8-5 year 4? The one good year 5 and then reverse hockey stick? That was in the weak pac-12. 

Our stock has never been higher. I'm not a Moore hater, but shaw wasn't some elite coach with elite results. He was pretty good, with pretty good results. I'm hoping for more than pretty good.

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

Newton Gimmick

January 23rd, 2024 at 6:02 PM ^

Shaw had 8 good years (great years, by Stanford standards) before the inevitability set in, given Stanford's very tough position in the NIL/portal era.  I think he was a very good coach who probably just stayed there too long.  

I can also see nervous comparisons to Coker or Helfrich or Solich or Bill Stewart, beloved assistants who couldn't maintain an elite program despite some early success.  

But keep in mind that several recent CFP appearances have been made by coaches who had no previous head coaching experience: Smart and Swinney actually elevated their programs from good to elite, and Riley at the very least maintained his, Jimbo had (big) early success, even Helfrich made a CFP title game before the bottom fell out. 

(I won't mention the other CFP coach who had no previous experience, but uh, he has a really good winning percentage in games that don't mean much.)

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gustave ferbert

January 24th, 2024 at 11:00 AM ^

You're severely discounting the Penn State situation.  The expectation was that Harbaugh was going to coach.  

I also don't believe Harbaugh had it drawn up to run the ball 30 straight times.  

 

If that doesn't assuage your anguish, then unfortunately you would be one of those types of fans the JUB compares to an opera critic and there is no helping you. 

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MGoPoints: 46436

NewBlue7977

January 23rd, 2024 at 6:09 PM ^

I mentioned something similar in a previous thread.  Someone posted how good Stanford's record was the first four or five years after Harbaugh and under Shaw, but things fell apart for the next 6-7 years.  I hope Michigan fans will not accept more than two straight years of decline under Moore, if it happens.  I think Moore could be a jell.pf.a coach given flexibility with NIL, but if Michigan continues to be strict on NIL, then he will be in the same position as Howard.  Harbaugh has a lengthy resume of developing players,l as a head coach, Moore and Howard do not. 

Joined: 04/25/2018

MGoPoints: 3342

blueheron

January 23rd, 2024 at 6:15 PM ^

No.

There's a handy reference above your post in this thread. Look at 2016, 2017, and 2018. I don't think those years amount to "falling apart" when compared to 2011-2015.

Adjusting for the degree of difficulty (culture of football at the school, admissions issues, etc.), I think Shaw did a very good job for at least eight years. I'm pretty sure we'd accept the same from Moore.

Joined: 03/26/2009

MGoPoints: 31870

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 7:37 PM ^

Ugh I wouldn't accept that. From 40-3 to having minimum 2 or 3 losses every year? I don't get the shaw love, the dude was 8-5 year 4. Never an ap top 10 finish after year 5.

We would accept that after 3 top 3 finishes in a row? Shaw had one in 12 years, after harbaugh left him a top 5 outfit. This is not the model of success.

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 8:33 PM ^

Well if it's not comparable, then don't compare it. Shaw did way worse than harbaugh in a much easier situation (maintain vs build). Getting tired of hearing how great shaw did when in reality, he was much, much worse than harbaugh. No shame in that, but let's shoot for marginally worse vs much worse. 

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

rice4114

January 23rd, 2024 at 8:53 PM ^

2017  Jim Harbaugh   8-5

2018 Jim Harbaugh   10-3

2019 Jim Harbaugh    9-4

Which year would you have fired Harbaugh? He had his team ranked top 5 all season long in 2016 and then went on to 5,3,4 loss seasons after being "A top 5 outfit" 

I really feel like Moore haters want something better than Harbaugh was just a few years ago?

Joined: 08/26/2010

MGoPoints: 48024

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 9:24 PM ^

This is a very fair rebuttal. Although, many weren't satisfied with UM those years, either.

And I'm not a Moore hater, but I do want something better than those 2017 -2019 UM records. I wanted better at the time, also. But with the pump primed, I definitely hope for a team that competes for titles (b1g and national, from time to time). I wouldn't be happy with 3-4 losses every year.

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

ca_prophet

January 23rd, 2024 at 10:17 PM ^

If that's your standard, I don't think there is a to-you-acceptable hire if Harbaugh leaves.  I'm pretty sure that 10-2 next year, against that schedule, without a QB and with major coaching turnover, would end up as a wildly successful job for both players and coaches.

One reason many of us are celebrating this three-year-run is because we are wildly unlikely to see its like again.

 

Joined: 09/07/2010

MGoPoints: 7175

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 10:27 PM ^

10-2 is ok next year, tough schedule, stacked D, but probably new d coord. 

Of course, 10-2 is losing to osu and Texas, the only likely great teams on the schedule. It means beating a probably top 15 Oregon team, and 3 loss usc and 3 loss uwash who are around top 25. With such a good d and good pieces on O (QB question mark, other potential spots of inexperience), that's not wildly successful imo.

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

rice4114

January 23rd, 2024 at 9:00 PM ^

2015  Jim Harbaugh10-3

2016  Jim Harbaugh10-3

2017  Jim Harbaugh8-5

2018  Jim Harbaugh10-3

2019  Jim Harbaugh9-4

He got way better after covid but before that did he really get better? 2021 was the come to Jesus offseason but before that Jim and Shaw were on the same trajectory. That is a 6 year track record of 3,4, and 5 loss seasons. You guys keep saying you wont accept a 2 or a 3 loss season. You did and nobody had a clue 2021,2022, and 2023 were around the corner. 

Joined: 08/26/2010

MGoPoints: 48024

olm_go_blue

January 23rd, 2024 at 9:29 PM ^

I think a 2-3 loss season is ok every now and then. Not every year. Nice to have some years with 0/1, also.

We accepted those records (I mean, we couldn't do anything about it anyway) because harbaugh came in to turn around the program, not keep the wheels running.

The only thing divisive here is the shaw parade. I love harbaugh, I think Moore may do great things (I don't think he has proven as much as others on here think he has). I don't think shaw was some elite coach that we would be lucky to emulate.

Joined: 08/09/2013

MGoPoints: 5100

NewBlue7977

January 23rd, 2024 at 9:47 PM ^

Prior to Covid Harbaugh was steady.  Covid hit and it was an odd year, then Harbaugh and his program exploded.  Harbaugh didn't go from losing 2 to 3 games a year, to losing 4 or more later on with Michigan.  Stanford was not going to be a bad team right away after Harbaugh left, because his foot-print was still embedded into the program.  Once it was washed away, then things began to slide.  Maybe Shaw is an incredible coach, but Stanford was not the right place for him, however; at Michigan losing 3-4 games should be rare, not the norm.  Hell, many Michigan fans even wanted Harbaugh gone before the 2-4 Covid year because he was losing 3 or 4 games a year.  

Also, Harbaugh took over a mess of a program with Michigan and made it better from season 1.  There was talent, but little development.  Shaw took over a program in the top 10, and for a while kept it in the top 15, but the 3, 4, 5 losses took the program outside of the top 25.  The trend went from 2-3- losses, then 4-5 and worse after that .  Losing 2 or 3 games a year in season 6, 7, 8, etc is fine because, as some people mentioned  in other rooms, 3 losses can get you into the new playoff format, but 4 will not.  

Joined: 04/25/2018

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Bo Harbaugh

January 23rd, 2024 at 6:18 PM ^

He gave us a decade, 3 straight B1G titles, ruined OSU's avenger roster seasons 3 years in a row, and left behind a succession plan and a loaded defense.  Oh yeah, and a National Title.

Can't really complain about or hand wring about anything...we all would have signed up for this deal 10 years ago,.  He's a unicorn and can coach at any level.

The more pressing issue is not the next head coach, but how UM will handle the changing realities of CFB, NIL, roster management, the portal, etc.

UM has always been slow to adjust - brought in RR a decade late, brought in Harbaugh a decade late tbh, and never adjusted to the BCS and playoff era of CFB until this very end - and only because of the staff's brilliance.  

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ESNY

January 23rd, 2024 at 8:04 PM ^

Jesus fucking Christ. It was clear to anyone without maize colored glasses or full on vitriol for Warde that there was a 95% chance Harbaugh was going to the NFL. He was out the door two years ago and it took a complete misunderstanding for him to return. 
 

Warde could’ve given him full immunity, named the stadium after him and guaranteed his kids full scholarship and it wouldn’t have done shit cause it’s not the NFL and he can’t win a Super Bowl here 

 

Joined: 11/06/2008

MGoPoints: 12329

Ezeh-E

January 23rd, 2024 at 8:27 PM ^

Then Warde should've done these things and taken the "no thanks" from Jim with grace. It sucks to be in his position and have to eat crow from Jim, but you do all you reasonably can to keep him here.

Others have argued whether immunity is reasonable or not. It feels like if Ono were just Harbaugh's boss, he'd trust Ono without a contract rider. With Warde, it feels like he doesn't. All feelingsball with no data, but that's where I land.

Joined: 07/22/2009

MGoPoints: 6234

kwallace2386

January 23rd, 2024 at 10:41 PM ^

And what if this was Sherrone Moore who beat OSU three times in a row, but demanded the language that Harbaugh wants in a new contract to protect himself. What would Michigan do? Just let Moore walk? How would that look? The Chargers are actually a copout for Michigan. Do you see how absurd this is? Why wouldn’t OSU hire a PI firm again in the future once the next coach beats them? Not retaining Harbaugh validated their move and proved how stupid UM leadership is.

Joined: 09/16/2019

MGoPoints: -24

kwallace2386

January 23rd, 2024 at 10:27 PM ^

All of you guys are completely missing the point. It IS an inflection point. Either you give Harbaugh what he wants, and he either chooses the NFL or you keep your best coach possibly ever AND have shows your willingness to fight the NCAA so something like this never happens again. Also, other teams will no longer put you under a microscope. The NCAA wants no part of a lawsuit and would fold like KU and everything is great again. Can you imagine OSU not doing this for a coach or KU not doing this for Self? Then why can’t Michigan do it for a coach who just won the damn title!

Or, you do what Michigan is doing, not supporting him by doing what KU did for Self, validating what the NCAA, Big Ten, and most of all, OSU, did. Now they know what to do when Michigan has a good enough coach to beat them. Just have a PI firm investigate them (ensuring that Michigan can never pay recruits or do anything that any other team does) because even if the coach gets through the year, Michigan will not do what it takes to the fight the NCAA and retain him. On to the next coach, and so forth.

What if this was Sherrone Moore, who had no NFL options, but demanded that this language would be in his contract. What would happen? Michigan would let him go? UM is too stupid to realize this until it would put them in the limelight like this or this happens with several coaches. Mark my word: OSU will now do the same thing with the next coach who succeeds to beat them at Michigan.

Joined: 09/16/2019

MGoPoints: -24

slimj091

January 23rd, 2024 at 7:45 PM ^

I understand your frustration, But there are reasons why you do say "I'm leaving the team after the national championship to coach the LA chargers" before any interviews, or contract negotiations have been done. As a fan all you can do is unplug until it's over. There is no point in getting worked up about something that is completely out of your control.

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MGoPoints: 9542