Whose the ND of 07,mich of 08 in 2009???
Call me crazy, but I think it might be OSU. For anyone saying they got enough backups to still be good, who knows, ppl were saying same thing about ND/Mich.
OSU is losing all of their vocal leaders(jenkins,lauranitis,robishke, etc) I think theres like 5-7 starters who were seniors?
Then, up to 7 juniors are thinking about leaving early I heard. Wells already shipped his bags to the NFL.
People who think Pryor's going to hold the team are crazy. Pryor is the most overated QB I seen, he may be OK, but common. He isn't much better than SHERIDAN throwing the ball.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:38 PM ^
But I think we have a good chance of beating them. They lose their LBs and secondary.. something RR's scheme inherently takes advantage of ( their D-Line will be better BTW )
Offensively, we should make Pryor beat us through air. He'll get a few. If we get a few turnovers and keep the game close.. we can beat them. The game is in AA.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:39 PM ^
wow a TP-Sheridan comparison?
January 11th, 2009 at 7:31 PM ^
You're right; Sheridan is a much more accurate passer.
January 11th, 2009 at 7:36 PM ^
My sarcasm meter must be broken...this is a joke right?
January 11th, 2009 at 7:47 PM ^
Yes, I was being sarcastic. Although I really do think it's a close call when it comes to comparing their accuracy and it's not totally absurd to make the comparison. Other factors not so much (obviously).
January 11th, 2009 at 7:52 PM ^
Sheridan went 46.0% 4.47YPA 2TD 5INT.
Pryor had a bad game against Michigan and turfed a few balls against Texas. Sheridan was horrible all year long. I do think it's totally absurd to make any comparison between the two.
January 11th, 2009 at 8:52 PM ^
I know what the stats say. I also watched each game that both of them played this year. There is zero comparison between the two as an overall package, and Pryor would win a direct comparison between the two in every category including throwing accuracy. However, the comparison of throwing accuracy alone is the closest comparison between the two. Is it close? Not really. That said, the comparison of accuracy is closer between Sheridan and Pryor than it would be between Pryor and (for example) Tebow. In that sense, for the sake of argument, that ONE comparison is not completely absurd.
The fact of the matter, at this point, is that against the best teams Prior didn't deliver this year. Against Penn State, Texas and USC he accounted for exactly one touchdown (a receiving touchdown). As I've said several times before now, I wish everyone would reserve their praise of Pryor until he has actually done something at the D1 level.
Along the line of the "stats" argument, there is one stat that I wish I could find: OSU's redzone TD% with Pryor at QB. I don't know the number, but I do know it was not good.
Pryor is going to be a good college QB, mainly because of his running ability, but he is never going to be a good passing QB. Obviously this is just my opinion, but it's an opinion based on seeing him play over the course of the past four seasons. Some of you apparently don't realize (or refuse to realize) that he played against shit competition in high school. I lived most of my adult life there and am very familiar with western PA HS football. My inlaws (who still live in Pittsburgh) were just telling me this week that there were several reports in the local media later in the season about how Pryor wasn't adjusting to the college game very well because of the drastic difference in the quality of the competition, especially the speed of the defenders. For example of this, if you've seen the games this year you know that he was run down by defensive linemen and linebackers several times this season. He is fast, no doubt about it, but it's yet to be seen whether his game will translate to D1 level, especially against the faster teams.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:02 PM ^
Fair enough. I don't think a comparison is really necessary outside of proof that a comparison can be made though. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Mustang, neither will ever be a terrific people mover, but the Ferrari is still going to do a lot more for you.
I do agree that Pryor will probably never be a top level NFL QB, however, I think VY version 2 is still a terrific player.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:56 PM ^
Yeah, I agree with you on the first paragraph. Although, if Pryor ends up being as good as Vince Young at the college level I will shit a brick.
January 11th, 2009 at 9:57 PM ^
I hope you never have to shit that brick, because we have to play Pryor every year.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:03 PM ^
Let's ask Mack Brown what he thinks:
"I don't think anything's fair in comparison except when you go back and look at the same stage. I was able to see Vince at this stage and Vince wasn't playing at this stage, so really, Terrelle's ahead of him at the same time frame. We thought it was good for Vince to get a year to redshirt."
(http://myespn.go.com/blogs/bigten/0-2-1025/College-game-comes-easy-for-…)
Ahem. Giggity.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:26 PM ^
That quote doesn't say anything at all about Pryor's development at this stage in comparison to Young aside from the fact Ohio State, for whatever reason, decided not to redshirt Pryor as a freshman and Texas redshirted Young as a freshman. That's all that quote says. It in no way, shape, or form says that Mack Brown thinks that Pryor is a better player at the end of his freshman year than Young was at the end of his freshman year. If you want to take it that way, that's fine but the quote could just as easily be taken to say that Brown thinks Tressel fucked up by not redshirting Pryor this year.
The article that you linked is a giant fluff piece based on flimsy stats (record as starter and pass efficiency rating) that ignores reality (he's a shitty passer at this point) and tries to twist quotes that are actually pretty negative about Pryor's skills (Jenkins, Miller). Also, as stated before, against his best competition (USC, Penn State, Texas) Pryor accounted for exactly one touchdown (a receiving touchdown). Again, get back to me when he's actually done something to deserve the slurping you want to give him.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:27 PM ^
""Terrelle's ahead of him at the same time frame."
Meaning he's better than Vince when Vince was redshirting as a freshman. Pretty explicit.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:38 PM ^
No, that's not what the quote says. You can't just pick and choose words out of context. Read the entire quote. It is clear that Brown is saying that Pryor is ahead of Young in that Pryor played as a freshman and Young didn't; nothing more. That's all it says.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:55 PM ^
The quote says it all. You don't like what it says, so you're throwing it away. Mack Brown thinks Pryor as a freshman is better than Vince as a freshman, and that Vince was apparently so behind in his development he needed a redshirt (although it didn't hurt having a capable senior starter already). This does not square with your hatred of everything Ohio State and your immediate assumption that Ohio State's good players are overrated despite everything pointing to the contrary. I'm not saying Pryor is Vince Young or that he will be in a few years, I'm saying he's better than you're giving him credit for.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:14 PM ^
Ok dickhead, let's get a few things straight:
(1) For the last time, Brown didn't say what you are asserting him to have said. Don't accuse of me of "throwing it away" when you're the one who can't comprehend the words that YOU quoted from the article. All Brown said is that Pryor is ahead of Young in that Pryor played as a freshman and Young didn't; nothing more. He did not say that he thinks Pryor is better as a freshman than Young was a freshman. He never said that.
(2) Whether or not a redshirt was used isn't particularly relevant because there are entirely too many other factors involved with that decision.
(3) I don't hate everything Ohio State. Don't make assumptions about things you don't know a damn thing about.
(4) I don't have an "immediate assumption that Ohio State's good players are overrated despite everything pointing to the contrary." I've only spoken about one player, who I happen to have followed closely for the last four years: Pryor. No one else. In fact, I've never once discussed one other Ohio State player on this board ever. Stop making shit up.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:35 AM ^
this string made me laugh. Good banter i guess.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:20 PM ^
While Pryor might be ahead of Young now, that is no guarantee that he will be ahead of him in two or three years. Vince Young and Troy Smith, two examples people like to use as benchmarks for Pryor's success, improved significantly throughout their time in school. Pryor could have a major Sophomore slump. He could be lazy in the weight room. He might get injured.
It seems to me like Pryor lacks that "I will defeat your silly hopes of victory even if it takes me to the last 8 seconds" magic that Young and Smith possessed. Those were two very special players, and you can't blame Michigan fans for doubting Pryor is in their league at this point in his career
January 11th, 2009 at 10:24 PM ^
It would, of course, help if he played more than three good teams this year. He led a spirited effort against Penn State for three quarters, and finished the job at Wisconsin. I think that's good enough for a true freshman thrust into the spotlight with an underperforming offensive line.
The thing about Pryor playing under Tressel is that Tressel is wholly content to let Pryor pass ten times or less if they're winning by 30 points, which is the situation Ohio State found itself in more often than not this season.
January 11th, 2009 at 10:34 PM ^
The Wisconsin game is the obvious one that you'd point to. Wisconsin was terrible this season and slow as hell. Pryor lead that drive to win the game with his running, not with his passing. Doesn't do much to support any sort of argument for his passing abilities. That "spirited effort" that you talk about against Penn State led to exactly zero offensive touchdowns, only two drives over 50 yards, and over half of his passing yards coming on 5 completions. This was his supposed best game of the season and it wasn't particularly impressive if (1) you watched the game and (2) if you look at the stats in any depth.
And for the record, it's hard to say that Tressell found himself "winning by 30 points...more often than not this season" when they won by 30 points four times in 13 games. Not so much "more often than not"...
January 11th, 2009 at 10:47 PM ^
More than any other quarterback outside of future-1st rounder Mark Sanchez. As a freshman.
And I never said Wisconsin was good.
For the record,
Youngstown State
Michigan
Michigan State
Northwestern
were decided by 30 points or more. Minnesota Tiller'd it's way to two late TDs (and a 2-pt conversion cherry on top), otherwise, that's a 28-point win. Troy, Purdue, and Illinois were never really in doubt, despite the relatively close nature of the scores; Ohio State dominated two of those games and genuinely stunk up the field against Purdue. Once a game is "no longer in doubt" according to Jim Tressel (i.e. we have a 10 point or more lead), the passing game is no longer needed.
Perhaps we should compare him to other recent recruiting service darling quarterbacks and their freshman years:
Matt Stafford: 7 TDs, 13 INTS, 52.7% CP
Jimmah: 7 TDS, 6 INTs, 56.3& CP
Tyrod Tayor: 5 TDS, 3 INT 52.7% CP
Let's not even discuss Anthony Morelli, Xavier Lee, etc. and their first years, if not their freshman years.
By most metrics, Pryor had a much better year than any other "program savior" of the last few years. Why not give him credit for it?
January 11th, 2009 at 11:01 PM ^
What part of over half of those 226 yards came on 5 completions did you not understand? That stat is Pryor's season in a nutshell. He didn't do anything, either running or passing, except for a handful of plays each game. Sure it can make for a nice stat line, but watching the games tell a much different story. As for the other QBs that you mention, none of those players had the luxury of playing with the supporting cast that Pryor had this year.
Why not give him credit for it? The better question is why do you persist is sucking him off left and right when he hasn't done anything to deserve it? But hey, if you want to get off on a guy who threw for all of 66 yards in a BCS bowl game, be my guest.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:12 PM ^
Exactly what supporting cast did he have? He had no Beanie Wells for a quarter of the season, arguably more when you factor in the number of times Wells was taken out and the number of times he took himself out. He had one good, vaguely consistent receiver in Brian Robiskie. He had the worst offensive line Ohio State has had since 1999 to work with. This was not a good team offensively in any sense of the word. Pryor made it work, as a true freshman, when 6th year senior Todd Boeckman could not. That is why he deserves praise in my book. Without him, Ohio State easily loses 2-3 more games. He was the MVP of a top 10 team as a freshman.
I like how, again, you reference how many yards Pryor threw for while neglecting to mention the impact he had on the rushing game. Guy went for over 500 yards on the year, and went off for 78 against the 2nd best rushing defense in the country. Take off the Maize and Blue rec specs and evaluate the actual season rather than focusing on the half that's convenient to your harebrained argument.
January 11th, 2009 at 11:27 PM ^
It's hard to "neglect[] to mention the impact he had on the rushing game" when I clearly stated that his rushing was much like his passing in that the vast majority of his yards came on only a few plays.
I don't view this through "maize and blue rec specs". My best friend is a big time OSU fan and he views Pryor's season exactly the same way that I do. Same with his father who is an OSU alum. On the other hand it might be useful for you to take off the red and gray rec specs and look at the entirety of what Pryor actually did this year, which is not a whole lot. Like I said before, if you want to consider his play this season as being so awesome, be my guest.
As for the supporting cast, it's not really relevant that OSU's offense wasn't as talented this year as in prior years, but rather that OSU's offense this year had more talent than those of any of the other QBs that you cited. That isn't a particularly difficult point to understand.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:18 AM ^
Pogue I love you. You are dead on about Pryor. On a separate note, I really think OSU's offense has sucked for a long time. OSU hasn't had a dominant offense under Tressel. Troy Smith 2006 does not count, as he whipped the shit out of the Big 10 (Chris Graham on Gonzalez? FUCKING REALLY?!?!?), then without Ted Ginn against UF did nothing. I recall the 2005 team with the exception of Santonio Holmes being not that solid, and the 2004 edition being Troy Smith running for 150yd against us, and then really you guys not having much of an offense in 2003 or earlier.
Basically, I'm saying fast defenses kick OSUs ass and that Troy Smith gives me nightmares.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:43 AM ^
What's the point of examing a player's season by removing all the good plays, looking at what's left, and declaring him not to be good? If you remove the 4 runs OSU had on us that were over 40 yards, they averaged only 1.3 yards per carry. Does that mean we shut them down?
If you remove Minor's long runs against Purdue, he averaged under 3 ypc. Does that mean he didn't play well?
If you remove the games we won, we were winless.
It's a statistical certainty that a running back who averages 6.5 yards per carry doesn't churn out 6.5 yards every time they touch the ball. It's balanced between some 50+ yard runs, and MORE times that they get massacred in the backfield. You can't ignore the positive plays as a fluke an obsess on the negative ones.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:56 AM ^
No shit Sherlock, I understand statistics. The point of what I was saying is that the vast majority of Pryor's yards, both passing and rushing, come on very few plays. I'm not ignorning the good plays, but rather I'm evaluating the entire body of the work and in so doing I am noting that aside from the FEW good plays the rest of the body of work isn't very good. I'm not sure how that can possibly be construed as ignoring all of the good plays and obsessing on the negative ones.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:16 AM ^
OK, what do Juice William's #'s look like if you take out ever 40+ yard play?
Look, on the surface, using stats like completion %, yards per completion, per attempt, rushing yards, attempts per interception, he was good. Period. So, your argument is that he was boom or bust. Well, back that up. Saying it doesn't make it so. Show us the percentage of yards he produced on big plays. Show us that his number is a stastical anomoly compared to any other QB. GIVE SOME EVIDENCE. That's all I'm asking for. I presented a comprehensive statistical case, and your response doesn't contain any evidence - just your assertion.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:35 AM ^
For the record, I said right at the outset that this was my OPINION based on watching the games this year and having watched him play over the course of several seasons in high school. That said, I'm working on that evidence and have been all morning. Be patient.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:38 PM ^
I'm going to put this data in a separate post. I actually have some good raw data that might be worthwhile for other readers who would miss it if I posted it in this thread. This thread is getting a bit messy anyway, so let's continue this discussion over there. If you wouldn't mind, would you re-post your data in the new thread?
January 12th, 2009 at 7:26 AM ^
and i agree with you. not only did tressel design plays to give him time to make reads on the perimeter (often times well designed counters to chris wells), but a lot of times, pryor's supposed lack of mechanics on drop back passes didn't seem to get in the way of him putting passes on target. i grant aesthetically he doesn't do it "right", but he's such a good athlete that i don't think it's fair to expect him to do it the normal way. in terms of productivity relative to peers, he's better. he's at least a top-60 quarterback, right? so that makes him a tick above average as a true freshman? any criticism of pryor's game right now is nitpicking.
January 12th, 2009 at 9:58 AM ^
Also, way to slink away from getting called out on your bald-faced lie that Ohio State won by 30 points more often than not. That kind of made me laugh.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:15 AM ^
Look, statistics don't exist in a vacuum - they are a measure of performance. People like to claim that Pryor is "inaccurate", but a universally accepted way of measuring accuracy - not to eye-ball him a few games and call him "inaccurate" - but to actually measure it, is completion percentage. Is the percent of passes he throws that are completed. Pryor completed 60.2% of his passes. That is second in the Big 10 behind Adam Weber.
You can claim that a passer can have an inflated completion percentage because the passes he attempts are exceedingly easy - like screens or flares. So, you'd expect his yards per completion to be lower is this were the case - the passes he completes are easy. Well, out of 15 QB's in the Big 10 with over 100 attempts, Pryor was 5th, at 13.1 ypc - it should be noted that 3 of 4 QB's above him only beat him by two-tenths of a yard or less - so effectively he was tied for second behind Juice.
OK, so he completes a large amount of his passes, and the ones he completes aren't demonstrably simple. Does he turn it over? Well, he threw a pick every 42 attempts - 3rd in the Big 10 behing Adam Weber and Darryl Clark, and exceedingly better than the 4th place player. So, no, he doesn't turn it over particularly.
Finally, he was 2nd in the Big 10 in total rushing yards from a QB, and 3rd in ypc behind Kellen Lewis and Mike Kafka - neither of whom were remotely as effective passing the ball.
So, if you stick to measurable things, and not obsess about the asthetics of his delivery, he was the 3rd best QB in the Big 10, behind Darryl Clark and Juice Williams. As a true Freshman. That's good.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:18 AM ^
I watched the games (or at least bits of half of them) and I didn't get an erection. Ipso facto, he sucks.
I went to like 5 Tigers games and never saw Miguel Cabrera hit a home run. He sucks at hitting for power, my eyes told me so.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:42 AM ^
This is such a dick way of saying what you're trying to say. If I had only watched two OSU games this year then your point would be valid, but I didn't watch two OSU games, I watched thirteen OSU games this year.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:40 AM ^
That's fine, but statistics don't always tell the whole story. You know that. You, yourself, have said that before in other discussions. Yes, the stats that you provide say that he had a decent year. I don't deny that. However, in this case the stats and the eyeballs (and brain) tell a different story. I don't "obsess about the asthetics of his delivery"; frankly I could care less about any of that.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:48 AM ^
I didn't mean to say you were obsessing about his delivery, but when I see people genuinely compare him to Nick Sheridan (again, I know it wasn't you), my mind boggles.
January 12th, 2009 at 10:58 AM ^
I completely agree. Like I said in one of my other posts, there is no comparison between the two at all, but if there were the closest of them would be throwing accuracy. That's all I really meant when I got involved in this discussion, and now there's a lot of other tangents here.
Really the better way to put my issue with all of this is probably pretty well expressed by a combination of what we've all seen when watching him play and what the stats that you provided show: he had a good year for a freshman, but nowhere near as good as the media attention he has received warrants. I'm perfectly fine sticking with my opinion that he won't ever become anything overly special, and really, instead of flying off of the handle (not you) and saying I'm nuts for having my opinion (pretty much everyone here) people here should be hoping that I'm right.
January 14th, 2009 at 2:30 AM ^
Sarcasm or not, this "TP can't pass" meme is seriously getting old.
He completed 65% of his passes this year. Even with good receivers, that's pretty damn good. TP is going to give us headaches for the next couple of years. Even if we beat tUoOS in the next couple of years at all, it's not going to be easy.
January 14th, 2009 at 8:38 AM ^
Learn to read. I never said that he "can't pass".
January 14th, 2009 at 10:05 AM ^
I think that is more directed to the opening post of the thread. This author has stated several times in several threads that they think Pryor will never be a good passer. Well, actually, probably more like "TP'll nvr b a good passer," but you get the idea.
January 14th, 2009 at 10:54 AM ^
I know what you're saying, but I'm going to respectfully disagree. He made that comment in response to two of my posts, thus I'm going to (reasonably) conclude that it was directed to me.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:42 PM ^
The guy has a lot better arm strength than Sheridan just has poor mechanics.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:11 PM ^
I can see your argument but you go way too far by comparing Pryor to Sheridan.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:45 PM ^
i think it going to be georgia. they play in a very competitive conference, moreno and stafford are both leaving early, and they were pretty overrated this year (as usual). i may be biased though living in georgia and having to here the same old bullshit every year from all the fans down here. they're one of the most arrogant schools in the nation not to mention the one of the worst penalized teams year in and year out. and i just hate them.
i just dont think you can have an SEC team as your preseason number 1 because there are a lot of good teams in the conferece and you never know what will happen throughout the season. especially if the preseason number 1 is georgia
January 11th, 2009 at 4:48 PM ^
I think Tennessee had a worse 2008 than Michigan did to be honest. Their offense was horrible.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:49 PM ^
It's going to be Auburn.
I mean, Gene Chizik.
January 11th, 2009 at 4:56 PM ^
I was running through teams in my head that would fit, and I saw this, and yep, thats it, its auburn, no question.
Also, you are crazy. OSU will compete for the B10 title next year. Pryor might not be great throwing the ball, but he's only going to get better. Plus the losses they have will be minimilized because they have recruited very well. The defense will suffer more than the offense but I would be shocked if they are not one of the top 2 -3 teams in the b10 next year.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:26 PM ^
The presence of Malzahn will stop that from happening. Chizik was a terrible hire, but they got one of the best OCs out there.
January 11th, 2009 at 5:09 PM ^
The common thread of ND '07 and UM '08 is new coaches being forced to play lots of freshmen, including at QB, and a serious lack of talent on the OL. OSU will be fairly young, but nowhere near where we were, and they've got much better depth of talent throughout their program. And their QB is light years ahead of where Clausen/Threet were as frosh.