What is your ideal move for Gores and Pistons
Another boring football news period, so as I watched the NBA finals I got to thinking about what Gores can do to make the Pistons a top echelon team, again, if possible.
The newest NBA trend is to have a multi-star team. Superstars can't do it alone as LeBron has learned. It may not be possible to get the 3-Star team like Miami, but what if we had a team with 2 solid superstars. This is all wishful thinking, but the next two years both Dwight Howard and Chris Paul are moving on. What if Gores can open up his checkbook and draw these two to the D.
I know, I know, not likely, but here are a few things that might help.
1. Although the Pistons lack a superstar, we do have a number of SOLID players. Rip, Stuckey, Monroe, Gordon, Charlie V. (meh), hooked up with the likes of Paul and Howard would be a formidable force. Miami doesn't have much of a bench, but they can survive wth 3 stars. 2 super stars with a bunch of solid veterans may be tough to beat.
2. Detroit City would give these guys idol status if they came in and lifted the spirits of a beat up city with a long playoff run or championship. Idol status is hard to come by on the coasts (NY or LA).
I'm not sure about a coach, yet, but you don't need a proven veteran coach who has been to half the teams in the league already. The young pup coach in Miami is doing pretty well.
Again, this is fantasy, but one can dream. Gores has money, let's see if he can use it.
Food for thought as we dream of September.
It is not a "new NBA trend" to have a multi-star team. I doubt you can name the last NBA champion to not have at least 2 high-level superstars. You'd have to go back to the 70s at the earliest.
The 2004 Pistons didn't have any " high-level superstars." Ben, Rip and Chauncey were all good players, but not on a superstar level.
including a few years where the pistons had 4 all stars, a dpoy, and 2 other all d-players. thats a *stacked* roster
Great players, good team. Not superstars.
Melo, Bron, Kobe, D-Wade, Pau, Timmah, D-Rose, Amare, Steve Nash, Dwight, etc. are superstars. You'd be hard pressed to make a case that anyone on the Pistons' run was a superstar in that sense of the word.
but they occupied a rung sigificantly above "good players"
but they occupied a rung sigificantly above "good players"
What the Pistons did in their second golden age was a true rarity in the modern NBA. A spectacular convergence of unique events that is not likely to be replicated by Detroit or anyone else in the near future.
That's why Joe needs to do what he has refused to do, TANK IT, and get a year or two where we can draft in the top 3 or top 5 and get a special player.
time this has happened since 1979. Historicqlly you don't win without a top50 all-time superstar, and many times you need two of them.
All-Stars mean absolutely nothing. Shawn Marion is a 4x All-Star but he is by no means a superstar.
The all-star game is heavily influenced by team success. There were more deserving players than Rasheed Wallace in 06 and 08 when he was posting 15/7 and 13/7, respectively.
and the All-Defensive team is almost entirely reputation-based.
Not to downplay the talent of our championship core, but they truly were a team that was greater than the sum of its parts. Chauncey and Rip brought out the best in each other, Ben and Rasheed were the perfect complement of man and weakside defense, and Tayshaun was allowed to play tightly on his man knowing that he had WallaceX2 to back him up.
team success is directly resultant from the quality of players.
and as far as sheed is concerned, there are only so many shots to go around
I hate to be a pessimist but it seems the trend for the really high end free agents is signing in NY, Miami, Chicago, Boston and L.A. I don't see the Pistons being able to pull off any huge free agent signings so they'll have to get lucky in the draft.
Chauncey and Rip weren't even all-stars until after 2004. And Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace only had 2 each before 2004 (according to Wikipedia). I would say that none of those players at the time were 'superstars', or even 'star' players. What made that Pistons team great was how they complemented each other, and I was proud of that.
Pretty much the exception. LA the past two go arounds, San Antonio is kinda iffy here--who would their second superstar after Duncan be? IDK if Parker or Ginobli are superstars (not that I don't think they're great players). The Heat had Wade and Shaq, Kobe and Shaq, the Bulls had MJ and Pippen, Pistons were the Bad Boys, no need to explain the Celts/Lakers in the 80s.
over the last 10 years (hasn't even been in the league that long) he's a top five player in the NBA. He was also a top notch wing defender in the years they won the title. Considering his injury issues and the fact he plays 30-32 minutes a game and has played 6th man at times his brilliance has gone largely unnoticed. At the very least he was a top 10 player in the league every year they won a title and Duncan was a top 3 player every one of those years. When you throw a top 30 player (in 05' & 07') in Parker and the best or second best wing defender (Bowen) in the league you can see why they won 3 championships and damn near won 2 more.
I think Dallas is having trouble with Miami because it's hard to match up with 2 top 5 guys and a top 30 guy when you only have 1 top 5 guy and bunch really good role players.
How about the Piston's last championship? It's stretching the definition of 'high-level superstar' pretty far to get anyone on that team into it. Chauncey might have been among the top 20 players in the league at that point.
A less convincing case can be made that Drexler had declined enough that Houston in the late 90s would qualify, having only Hakeem (but great, great role players).
If you have to stretch the definition or state a case for what makes a "high-level superstar," you have your answer -- your subject is NOT one.
What makes one? Like porn, you know it when you see it.
How bout LA? It would be a pretty big reach to call Gasol, Artest or Odom a superstar
When Miami won, Shaq was past his prime, definitely no longer a superstar
Spurs were a great team, but Duncan was the only bona fide superstar on it
Detroit will never get players of Lebron and Wades caliber with free agency, so our best shot is to build a team of solid, solid players at every position, and get very lucky with a trade, which is what happened in 04 when we had a solid team and got Sheed.
I don't think Gasol is too big of a stretch. Artest and Odom for sure. Gasol is on the line for me, with a slight lean towards yes.
I'm sorry but Gasol didn't win a single playoffs series before he was traded to LA. He has never been voted to the All-NBA first team, and was only once on the All-NBA second team.
Wade. LeBron. Dirk. Rose. Dwight Howard. Durant. Kobe. These are superstars
If you go 10 years back, Garnett, Duncan, TMac, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson.
Gasol does not belong on that list. 20 years from now, nobody is going to remember Gasol as a superstar. They'll remember him as Kobe's sidekick to win his second set of championships.
LOL Vince Carter and the second round virgin get superstar status but a 2x NBA champion doesn't? He's not a bonafide superstar like I said, but I'd probably lean towards yes if I had to.
The post below saying they'd put Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph against Pau should go to show how much of a superstar Gasol is...
Gasol is a special case, as he has a skill set that's largely disappeared from the NBA, but that is incredibly valuable. He's currently the best post-up big man in the league. Only the Bulls in their runs, the '04 Pistons, maybe the '08 Celtics (though Garnet was much more willing to play in the post than he is now) and whoever wins this years champion, will have recently won a championship without having one of the league's best post bigs.
Think back through the 90s: the Lakers (Gasol and O'Neal), Heat (O'Neal), Spurs (Duncan, and Duncan and Robinson), and Rockets (Hakeem) all had big men that were dominant in the post. Even the Bulls ran much of their offense through a posted-up Jordan. Postup basketball is valuable because it's a way to get reliable points, especially as defense ramps up during the playoffs. It allows players to get the ball in familiar, comfortable places on the floor. One of the things that makes this series so unusual is it features almost no post play (though Wade has been effective when he goes there).
Gasol was one of the two best post-up players (with a declining Duncan) the past couple years, and that rare skill gave LA an advantage over almost every team they played.
Good post. I'd put Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph up against Pau, though.
Good call on Randolph. He's always been very good in the post and this year he decided that he cared about basketball. I didn't see Jefferson play at all this year that I can recall.
I've always wondered why LeBron hasn't developed any kind of post game. He'd be almost unstoppable with his combination of size, strength, quickness, and passing ability.
I expect LeBron to transition to the PF position much sooner than later, and would put money on him ending his career there. We'll be seeing more of a James/Bosh frontcourt in years to come.
I don't agree. LeBron is built like a PF but his freak athleticism, passing, defensive ability, and just pure talent make him an impossible matchup for other guards and SFs. Putting him in the post against bigger, stronger big men would make no sense. He's a SF who can play PG if he wants to and that's exactly how he'll end his career.
If he plays at PF, in what would be a Bosh-LeBron-Wade-point-shooter lineup, he's going to play on the perimeter, trying to draw big men out and beat them off the dribble. I'm not so sure that will work much better than the Big 3-Haslem-Miller type lineups, as it would seem to create a lot of spacing issues and mean the type of clear out/iso basketball that gets the heat in trouble.
But what would make LeBron even more dominant than he already is would be if he developed a post game (ala late career Jordan, and Magic as Kareem started to decline in the mid-80s) while still playing the 3 (which is what he's basically playing now). Then teams are left with a choice of leaving their 3 on LeBron, and getting beat in the post. Doubling, and getting beat by his passing. Or putting someone bigger on him and getting iso'ed on the perimeter. Given his body type and passing ability, being able to post up is such an advantage that it's shocking he hasn't worked on it seemingly at all.
LeBron isn't abusing wing players in the post, so why would you assume that he'd exclusively plant himself on the low block against bigs?
that's kind of my point. I don't see him doing that. But I assumed that by saying he should play PF, you'd expect him to be more of a post player than he is now. & if that's not the case, then what's the point of moving him to PF? If you're telling me he'd be doing the same things he's doing now then why are you saying he should change positions?
To get an extra guard/wing player on the court, such as Mike Miller or James Jones? To go uptempo, which would be wise with a young, athletic team? To create a mismatch, which happens when LeBron can defend most PFs and most don't have a prayer of slowing him down?
But you can also create a mismatch by putting him at PG in place of the Bibby/Chalmers combo, which is what the Heat did quite a lot down the stretch in the Chicago series. A lineup of LeBron-D Wade-Miller-Bosh-Anthony/Haslem would still create a mismatch (because any PG would have just as difficult a time defending LeBron, if not even more so, than a PF would) without sacrificing size, defense, or (most importantly) rebounding. I think that would be a lot more effective than putting LeBron at the 4 spot and leaving Bibby/Chalmers out there.
Word. Randolph did work this year in the playoffs. His fadeaway was money.
Gonna be tough to sign max players without moving at least one of those guys
I've read that Mike Woodson is a front runner, but I'd really like to see Laimbeer take the reigns. I think he can give this team a kick in the pants it needs. As far as players I think it would be great to see a Monroe and Howard frontcourt, but as an earlier post said, Rip and Villanueava's contracts have our hands tied. Hence, the importance of a strong coach
First, let's not throw the term "superstar" around so liberally.
Secondly, we must realize that Detroit has NEVER been a free agent hot spot. Consider where these mega teams are being formed: Los Angeles, Boston, Miami, New York. These are big markets with better media exposure and/or weather and/or club history than the Detroit Pistons enjoy. When we actually had cap space Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva were the best we could do, and we even had to overpay for Gordon. Hell, after we won a championship we had to overpay Rasheed Wallace to stay, and the only other bidder was Philadelphia for half the price.
Third, Gores does have money, but there is the salary cap and luxury tax to worry about. If he wanted to lose money in order to build a winning product, then sure, we could sign and trade Tayshaun, extend Stuckey to market value, and use the MLE, but I bet only one of those happens. In fact, we haven't used the MLE in a few seasons, which is one of the only outlets a team over the cap has to improve the team.
Our best chances at obtaining a superstar is via the draft or compiling enough talent to produce a competitive package the next time a big name demands a trade.
For the record, Boston built their mega team through trades (Garnett, Allen) and drafting (Pierce, Rando).
In fact, Miami is the only team in the league right now that was built on the back of being a "hot" free agent spot (and they had to settle for years of mediocrity while clearing the cap space to do that). Before the summer of 2010, it had been 14 years (Shaq in 1996) since the balance of power in the league threatened to shift from a free agent move. The Knicks STILL haven't advanced in the playoffs since 1999 (something that teams in Oklahoma City and Memphis both did this year).
Location is not irrelevant in the NBA, but history shows it is HIGHLY overrated.
Well, TBF to the Knicks they got Amare and a FA, they're looking at Williams/Paul in a year, and Melo was gonna head there as an FA before Denver decided to get something for him.
OK, but that's not a "mega" team, as the poster I responded to dubbed them.
Even with Williams or Paul, that's a "we've sucked for a dozen years so let's get a few guys with some offensive flash who can sell tickets and give us a few thrills in the playoffs every year so it will look great in comparison to what we used to be" team.
Teams like Oklahoma City or Chicago, built through getting lucky in the draft lottery for that one key player and then making a few good moves afterward, have way higher ceilings. That's what the Pistons should be trying to do.
My bad, I might have not been clear. I was talking more about NYC being a free agent hot spot.
Once Boston became relevant, however, free agents flocked to the place. The same thing happened with Los Angeles, is happening with Miami, and will happen with NY. The location helps, as other conference finalists and semi-finalists (i.e. "contenders") didn't enjoy the same luxury.
Miami is going to get even worse if the MLE is kept in the new CBA. They'll get a Mike Miller level player-or better-every off-season.
Free agents flocked to Boston? Name 'em. Shaq and JO can barely walk, let alone play, so they didn't help that much.
As mentioned, the big four came through draft and trades. Perkins and Big Baby, also drafted. Their most relevant FA pickup was an over-the-hill Rasheed, who they had for one year.
Every waived vet strongly considers going to Boston, and free agents sign for less than market value to play there. Many of these players could have been the missing piece for, say, the Utah Jazz, but that's not even an option.
And actually, just a few years ago, there were a lot of stories in the media suggesting that Boston wasn't an attractive city for NBA players. Boston has historically had a bad reputation in the black community. Before they acquired Garnett, the Celtics hadn't won anything since their last white superstar (Bird) retired.
Hoping to build a team like Boston did is a fruitless fantasy. Boston was basically handed "The Big 3" + Rondo through a perfect storm of events.
1. They already had PP.
2. The Sonics were purchased by an owner who was going to move the team and wanted to divorce the franchise of all vestiges of Seattle. Thus, the Celtics got Ray Allen on the cheap.
3. Kevin Garnett was a gift given to the Celtics via Kevin McHale a la Jerry West giving Pau Gasol to the Lakers. McHale knew his days as GM were numbered, and KG wanted out(he had maintained that he would refuse to play for the Celtics and then ultimately caved). At that point, even T-Wolves fans felt bad for KG being stuck in Minny, so the Celtics got one the greatest players of the last 20 years for peanuts.
4. IIRC, they got Rondo because of the Sarver led Suns selling off draft picks due to a mountain of horrible decisions leading them to be well over the luxury tax. Also the fact that a ton of teams passed on him.
There is no way that the Pistons can replicate the fortune Boston stumbled onto.
Personally, I think either Rip, Prince, Gordon, or Charlie V need to go. One or two of those guys at least. I think they are overpaid plain and simple. It would be amazing to see even one of Howard or CP to come to Detroit, but I don't see it happening. Gores is going to have to be more creative than that. Some type of big trade needs to take place. I'd be in full support of them pairing draft picks with a few of those guys I mentioned to get some young high-caliber talent. It was just tough to watch this team play last year, and I hope Dumars and Gores can put together some type of game-changing trade to at the very least mix up the team.
Prince is an UFA this year and won't be back. Hopefully, they can find someone to take Rip. Attempt to draft well and hopefully they can get one of the free agent "superstars." That is a lot of "hopefullys."
Hire Mike Woodson. If you can turn around the Atlanta Hawks you can turn around the Detroit Pistons. Terry Foster seems to think the Pistons should hire Isiah Thomas, which, uh, only if you want the Pistons turned to shit like everything else he touches. With apologies to Mark Cuban, I wouldn't hire Isiah to manage a Dairy Queen. Or a lemonade stand.
Not really sure what the point of this thread is. Seems to be "Wouldn't it be sweet if our team got the two best upcoming free agents?" Couldn't you literally just say this about any sports and any team. I fail to see why the Pistons would be contenders for Howard or Paul any more than any other team with salary cap space (and less so that teams like NYC where Paul's two closest friends in the NBA already play).
So to answer your question, yes, getting superstars would be sweet. Novel concept.
This is OT