What to do with Jimmy (Harbaugh)

Submitted by MGoStrength on November 6th, 2020 at 9:30 AM

I know there has been a lot of JH discussions.  Some say "can him!"  Some say he's still a good coach that just can't beat elite teams.  Some think the problem has been with his assistants which now appears to have switched from the offensive side to the defense...or maybe not.  This analysis is an attempt to consider is JH good for UM, can we expect better, and how does he compare to his predecessors as well as our ever present juggernaut of a rival down south.

Intro - JH is pretty good, but annoyingly so

JH was successful at every other stop and by and large he's been successful at UM, but frustratingly so.  We all know the losses to OSU, MSU, against ranked teams (particularly on the road), and in bowl games.  We know the woes...the QB issues, the close calls against MSU, the 4th down spot, the Orange Bowl & Outback Bowl near misses, the injuries, JOK, Brandon Peters, Shea Patterson, etc.  The list goes on and on.  The reality is JH has not lived up to expectations.  He's never beaten OSU.  He's never made the playoffs.  He's never won a conference title.  But, he's not the only one.

His predecessors (1969 - present)

Hoke was good before he got to UM and won 11 games before things went off the rails.  Rich Rod won 10-11 games three years in a row prior to arriving at UM.  But, time has shown us that neither guy was really that great.  Carr in his 13 years averaged 9.4 wins per year, the exact same as JH.  Since neither played in a conference championship or playoff game, the season length was the same for both.  But, Carr was 6-7 versus OSU whereas JH is 0-5.  It's worth noting that Carr was 1-6 since Tressel took over, but by and large the losses were close unlike 3/5 years for JH.

Carr also had some frustrating trends with the prevent defenses.  But, Carr had 3 top 5 recruiting classes and one top 6 class in his 7 classes in the 2000s.  During that same time OSU only had one top 5 class.  So, Carr's UM teams were more talented than Tressel's OSU teams despite the popular opinion to the contrary.  However, in the following 13 classes since 2007, OSU has been in the top 5 of the rankings 8 times compared to UM's one.  

To provide more context Moellar averaged 8 wins per year, but played one less game during his tenure with a 12 game season.  Bo averaged 9.7 wins per year in an 11 game season.  So, Gary was essentially the same as JH and Bo was better.  Both fared better against OSU.  Bo was about the same as Carr overall and Moellar was 3-1-1.  Unfortunately internet recruiting rankings only go back to 2000 so we can't compare talent from those eras.

Is CFB different today?

So, when we walk down memory lane if we're looking at the recent history of UM football from 1969-today we see JH is roughly the same as Moellar & Carr and slightly worse than Bo, but significantly worse against OSU than all of them.  However, when we look at recruiting it's clear OSU has recruited at a higher level post-Tressel with Meyer and Day than it historically had during the rest of it's recent history.  The real question is why does UM expect to be a playoff team or to win B1G championships when essentially it can't do one without the other since OSU is a playoff team and in the same division?  None of Gary's teams would have made the playoffs.  Carr's '97 team would and possibly the 2006 team.  Bo had several 1-loss teams in the early 70s that could have made the playoffs and a few in the 80s.  So, in the past almost 40 years there really only a handful of playoff contending level teams and most of them belonged to Bo quite some time ago and probably none since 2000.  I think the thing that falsely leads UM fans to think they are better than they are is their often lofty pre-season ranking.  UM has the tendency to be in the top 5-10 in the preseason rankings, but more like the top 12-20 in the post season rankings.  So, I think it's unfair to expect JH to make them a playoff team or even a conference champion with OSU as they currently are.

Take aways

Ultimately, I think we are looking for UM's version of Meyer, Saban, Swenney, but unfortunately we don't have a good modern day example of that ever occurring at UM.  Bo was the closest thing, but even he had a bad bowl record and never won a NC and likely didn't have to deal with the juggernaut that OSU now is.  Short of finding the next great coach, which seems unlikely, UM's best bet seems to be to wait for OSU stop being the Meyer/Day version and revert back to the Cooper, Fickell, and even Hayes versions.  Honestly I have to assume Day is simply benefitting from Meyer's system.  He may be a good schematic coach, but I doubt he could have built what Meyer did without him.  So, our hope is that Meyer and Day move on from OSU and the job doesn't stay in house and the new coach has to reinvent the wheel, even if they are doing so with the benefit of a loaded roster.  I know it sucks, but patience or luck are our best bets.  That may revert us back to pre-RR standards, which aren't a lot different in terms of W/L records, but means we are competitive with OSU again and are more likely to win B1G championships. 

Is there any hope moving forward?

You can still roll the dice and hope for more with another HC.  Despite JH's W/L record and recruiting successes it's also clear there is some management issues there with all the reoccurring problems like recruiting holes, not getting up for big games, clock management, and the team just too often looking unprepared that makes you say WTF while watching them.  Maybe you'll get all the good without some of the bad and that turns into a product a lot less frustrating, albeit without a ton of difference in the W/L column.  But, maybe you'll get Hoke/RR 2.0.  Or, maybe you'll get the same result but with slightly different problems.  Here's to hoping Meyer takes another job, Day jumps to the NFL, and OSU hires someone that is not a generational talent and revert back to their historical norm and we once again get competitive with them and have the chance to win a conference title and every once in a blue moon get a string of luck and the right QB to take a run at the playoffs.  So, keep him or try something new, the biggest take away is to be patient and wait for OSU to slow back down and until they do, don't expect much against them, a conference championship, or a playoff appearance.  Shoot for 2016 or 2018 with a better bowl outcome.

mGrowOld

November 6th, 2020 at 9:40 AM ^

FWIW I would ask the mods in sticky to move this to a diary.  

You obviously spent a lot of time on this post and on a game-day Friday it will probably get knocked off the sidebar in about an hour. 

Edit: Just saw Cranky Dave said same thing.

MichAtl85

November 6th, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^

Don’t expect much against: OSU, MSU, Bowl Games....

He wasn’t hired to go 9-4 or even 10-3 and lose plenty of meaningful games. There’s some revision going on that Michigan has always been this way and now OsU is better so we can’t expect Harbaugh to be an exceptional coach. 
 

While true OSU is the Death Star Harbaugh was not brought in and compensated so highly for empty results. Move on. Roll the dice. 

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 10:21 AM ^

He wasn’t hired to go 9-4 or even 10-3 and lose plenty of meaningful games.

Says who?  Did the AD ever say he expected him to win a NC or is that simply fans and media talking?  I think there's an implied expectation based on his salary, but the two don't go hand in hand.  We paid him what he we thought he was worth at the time.  Since then his value has probably gone down.

There’s some revision going on that Michigan has always been this way and now OsU is better so we can’t expect Harbaugh to be an exceptional coach. 

Bingo, that's all folks.

While true OSU is the Death Star Harbaugh was not brought in and compensated so highly for empty results.

We hired who we thought was the best available coach and the price is what we thought it would cost to get him.  His salary did not have any attachment to winning a NC or beating OSU unless you have some inside knowledge of his interview with the AD.

Move on. Roll the dice. 

That's a perfectly fine choice, but don't expect it to improve the results.  No one at UM has ever done what OSU is doing now.  No one at OSU has ever done what OSU is doing now either before Meyer.  It's unreasonable to expect anyone to do that, regardless of salary.  Saban, Meyer, and Dabo are unicorns.  The best bet, unless you wish to continue to be frustrated by a large gap between your expectations and the reality, is to hope for 2016 & 2018 type seasons with better bowl results, and forget about beating OSU or winning any championships until Meyer and Day are gone.  

blueheron

November 6th, 2020 at 10:49 AM ^

"Says who?  Did the AD ever say he expected him to win a NC or is that simply fans and media talking?  I think there's an implied expectation based on his salary, but the two don't go hand in hand.  We paid him what he we thought he was worth at the time.  Since then his value has probably gone down."

"We hired who we thought was the best available coach and the price is what we thought it would cost to get him.  His salary did not have any attachment to winning a NC or beating OSU unless you have some inside knowledge of his interview with the AD."

Agree x 2.

I think the suggestion that we should've hired a "Carr level" coach for (say) just 5.5M is hilarious. As if it would have been easy to do that ...

GET OFF YOUR H…

November 6th, 2020 at 10:28 AM ^

This is the correct answer.  If they wanted the production of Carr and the like, they would not have made him one of the highest paid coaches in the game.  He was hired to do a job, compete and win at the minimum some conference titles.  Excuses were made for him every year, and for the first few years it was just "let him get his guys".  Now he has all his guys, and has never improved the teams final fate, in fact it may be trending down.  This is not why they paid the amount of money they did.  If you want Lloyd Carr results, you hire someone at Lloyd Carr pay.  If you want Urban Meyer results, you pay someone more than Urban Meyer to get them.  The problem is he has delivered poorer results than Lloyd Carr, while receiving better pay than Urban Meyer.

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 10:36 AM ^

He was hired to do a job, compete and win at the minimum some conference titles.

Please show me when UM's AD said they expected JH to do this.  This is fan/media talk.  Maybe fans expected it, but the people who hired him never said they expected it.  JH himself made no guarantees.

blueheron

November 6th, 2020 at 10:52 AM ^

Keep your eye on the ball. As long as the AD fills the stadium and gets enough money from other sources (alums) to keep the empire funded, they won't much care exactly how many games Harbaugh wins.

Now, of course they'll have to care if attendance drops by several thousand. For now they're fine.

GET OFF YOUR H…

November 6th, 2020 at 11:07 AM ^

Keep losing to your rivals and every bowl game and that fan base is going to stop pumping the money in.  That's what people aren't seeing.  Coke bottles shouldn't be a way to get fans in the stands.  As a OSU fan, I can get a ticket for The Game up there for way cheaper than what it should be.  That's the sign of an eroding fanbase.

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 11:33 AM ^

So you're telling me all the Geniuses at U of M hired a coach that would be one of the highest-paid in the country to expect nothing more than having a second-rate record?

I'm sure that JH has a metric that he is evaluated just like any other job.  It wouldn't surprise me if beating OSU and winning the B1G were parts of that metric.  But, lots of people have goals that they fail to meet.  Failing to meet 1-2 of your goals hardly means you have failed at performing your job.  I'm sure there are other metrics that he's met.  His salary is likely tied to an entire evaluation rather than a simplistic one or two parts.  To play devil's advocate, I doubt people would be happy if he beat OSU, but got UM banned from post-season play for two years because of recruiting violations or failing to monitor his program for example.  So, it's not as simple as saying because we paid him X amount of money, if he doesn't beat OSU he's a failure.  

GET OFF YOUR H…

November 6th, 2020 at 11:05 AM ^

They expected it when they hired him at the salary they did.  Go back to the beginning of the Harbaugh era on this blog.  It was non-stop comments about it's only a matter of time before OSU comes tumbling down and Michigan wins championships with this new super coach.  It has backfired, the fanbase is fed up.  Coke bottles had to be bought for tickets.  Having a ho-hum mentality, struggling against "little brother", never beating OSU, not winning bowl games.  Sooner or later it's going to erode your fan support, ticket and merchandise sales, and donors that allocate their money specifically for the athletic department.  That's why you make a move.

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 11:37 AM ^

They expected it when they hired him at the salary they did.  Go back to the beginning of the Harbaugh era on this blog.  It was non-stop comments about it's only a matter of time before OSU comes tumbling down and Michigan wins championships with this new super coach

That's still all fan & media talk.  Fans and media didn't hire him, the AD did.  So, unless the AD said that's what they hired him to do, your expectations are not necessarily true.   Salary has nothing to do it.  He got market value.

UMxWolverines

November 6th, 2020 at 11:47 AM ^

Okay, then if those are the AD's expectations then that AD needs fired.

Michigan has a history of winning championships and the fans know this. Nobody in their right mind would not use winning championships as a measuring when making a hire at Michigan in the three major sports of football, basketball, and hockey. That is asinine. 

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 12:42 PM ^

Michigan has a history of winning championships and the fans know this.

Michigan HAD a history of championships when you could share them are there weren't divisions.  Since the B1G adopted a playoff game UM has not won even a divison title.  So, I don't buy that. 

Nobody in their right mind would not use winning championships as a measuring when making a hire at Michigan in the three major sports of football, basketball, and hockey. That is asinine. 

No one with an intellectual ability would use the same championship metric used under former regimes like Bo & Carr in today's system.  That would be illogical.  The simple fact is harder to win a B1G title and NC title than every before.  There's a reason the same teams are in it over and over like Bama, Clemson, & OSU and teams like UM, PSU, etc. don't make it anymore. 

UMxWolverines

November 6th, 2020 at 7:26 PM ^

Okay, it's harder now. That doesn't mean that it isn't the ultimate goal...it just means it's probably realistic to expect them less often. 

We still went 12-0 in 1997, 11-2 in 2006 and 11-2 in 2011. 

The program CAN compete with anyone, it is just a matter of everyone in the program doing what's best to win instead of trying to win a certain way because we're Michigan fergodsakes. 

GET OFF YOUR H…

November 6th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^

That's very true.  And he has certainly done much better than when they were around.  I just think the money at this point is not going to be worth it.  Yes COVID could be the driving cause behind the lack of a contract extension, but they could just be using that as an easy excuse at this point to see how this season goes.  

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 3:52 PM ^

Supply and demand is all about what else you can get. If UM thinks they can do better at the same or less price, they'd be dumb not to try. If they don't think they can, they'd be dumb to let him go unless they can't afford him. Ultimately it's a guess and popular opinion, myself included, is he's overpaid. I think they can get similar results with a bit less cost, but I also don't think any amount of money paid to a coach will get them immediately over the OSU hump. I don't think you can buy that solution in an off-season.

FrozeMangoes

November 6th, 2020 at 1:56 PM ^

The only difference between Hoke, RR, and JH is JH beats the body bags.  But, the reason JH beats the body bags (turtling, playing conservatively allowing the immense talent gap to eventually smother the body bag) is the same reason he will never win big games. 

I mean year 6 and the dude doesn't even have a hurry up offense.  Most teams use it all game because it works and makes it easier to put up points.  High school offenses are capable of playing at tempo.  UM can't do it down 2 scores under 4 minutes. 

Brandywine

November 6th, 2020 at 2:14 PM ^

Michigan and most of its fans are still deeply scarred from the RR/Hoke eras. It will still take some more time for Michigan to take the risk and be willing to move on from a consistent, even if not spectactular, coach like Harbaugh.

I do believe JH was hired with the expectation to compete with OSU and win Big Ten championships. But at the time, he was also hired to bring Michigan "back" to its roots, culturally, and return that feeling to the fans that made Michigan, Michigan. Both were part of his job description, but I believe the second was and still is more important to the AD.

RontBlue

November 6th, 2020 at 10:02 AM ^

I appreciate the post, provides good context and a calm walk through of your perspective. As I read your post I was thinking, if this post came after an OSU loss and another 1 or 2 loss season, it would be almost... comforting. The problem is that it came after an MSU home loss... where talent is actually on our side. Just mind boggling. 

My opinion is that this season will be strange, college football is strange, and that Jim Harbaugh is still the man for the job. I also won't give up on the season. Yeah I'm not as hyped any more for it I'll stay positive and think this can always be the year we knock off OSU!

Go Blue! Beat Indiana. 

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 10:24 AM ^

The problem is that it came after an MSU home loss... where talent is actually on our side. Just mind boggling. 

That is nothing new...same thing happened in 2015 and 2017.  We were more talented then too.  In fact, 2017 was UM's most talented roster by recruiting standards.  Unfortunately we were stuck with a lame duck QB, another frustrating trend under JH.

My opinion is that this season will be strange, college football is strange, and that Jim Harbaugh is still the man for the job.

I could go either way.  I'd surely let the season play out, but I've come the realization that JH will never be what we wanted him to be and will never beat OSU.  So, we can keep him or dump him, but dumping him likely won't produce any better results.  It may be a different version of 9.5 - 3.5, but we still won't beat OSU, win the B1G, or make the playoffs.

Brian Griese

November 6th, 2020 at 10:10 AM ^

See, the problem is you keep bringing up OSU and our issues with them. Would we have better recruits if we beat them? Of course. 

However, the reality is OSU has thumped everyone in the conference for years now so everyone in the BIG is basically in the same boat. My point to all of that is Harbaugh has a combined losing record to PSU, Wiscy, MSU, Iowa and bowl Opponents. If you want to cry that Michigan had to play Bama in bowl, be my guest and remove them from the equation and you’ll still find a losing record. 
 

I’m sorry, but if I had a crystal ball and would’ve told you that would be true (along with a goose egg against OSU) in year 6 on the day Harbaugh was hired I would’ve been laughed/neg’d off this board. 
 

OSU being good is a problem. I don’t think anyone has said otherwise. But OSU being good has really nothing to do with our struggles against the meat and potatoes of our schedule every year and frankly that’s just inexcusable. 

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 10:33 AM ^

See, the problem is you keep bringing up OSU and our issues with them.

But, UM can't do any of the things most people expected, like win a conference championship, as long as OSU is better.  You can't win the B1G without beating OSU, plain and simple.

However, the reality is OSU has thumped everyone in the conference for years now so everyone in the BIG is basically in the same boat.

Purdue & Iowa would like a word.  And, while Wiscy and PSU haven't exactly been successful against OSU, they have played them much closer than UM has and PSU has managed a win, which UM has not.  That's a lot of teams that have done better against OSU than UM.

I’m sorry, but if I had a crystal ball and would’ve told you that would be true (along with a goose egg against OSU) in year 6 on the day Harbaugh was hired I would’ve been laughed/neg’d off this board. 

I think that's part of the point.  UM fans have unrealistically high expectations.  The difference between UM's traditional pre-season and post-season rankings show the nation tends to agree and expect UM to perform better than they do.  But, this has been going on since before JH walked in the door.  No coach in UM's history would have won a conference championship today with OSU performing the way they do.  It seems silly to expect JH or whomever to be something UM has never been...ever.

But OSU being good has really nothing to do with our struggles against the meat and potatoes of our schedule every year and frankly that’s just inexcusable. 

Agreed, there are other management issues that point to flaws in JH like the recruiting holes, not getting up for big games, poor bowl performances, the QB woes, and just generally thinking WTF all too often while watching his teams play.  I discussed all that.  But, by and large if you simply drop OSU from the discussion, JH's record looks a lot like Bo's, whom is revered for pretty much only losing 1-2 games per year, but also almost always losing the bowl game.

Brian Griese

November 6th, 2020 at 11:23 AM ^

You took the expectations part of my post completely out of context. Again, forget our record versus OSU - Yes or no: do you expect this program to do better than .500 against Iowa, PSU, MSU, Wiscy and bowl Opponents?  Do you expect them to ever compete with OSU? Beat OSU? 
 

If “unrealistic” is answering yes to the first two questions I asked then I need to find something better to do on Saturdays. Unless you hang out with complete slappies I don’t know a single person that expects Michigan to beat OSU, win the conference every year and pursue a National Title. But is too much to ask to have some success against our contemporaries in conference and in bowl games?

ska4punkkid

November 6th, 2020 at 11:35 AM ^

It doesn't matter if a team is more talented. You see dozens of examples of this every year across all sports, where a less talented team pulls off a big upset. We just saw one last week where we were on the wrong end! The fact that we can't even get 1 against OSU is shameful.

I love Michigan but I can't take the underperforming year in and year out. I wish I could close the Michigan chapter in my life because it brings so much pain but I know I never will be able to. The one thing I have done that has helped though is to only occasionally visit the blog and not be as involved in who we are recruiting and all the other stuff. I have better things to do with my life than waste my extra time on a lost cause. My son is almost 13 and has never seen a GOOD Michigan season. 2011 was ok in the fact that we beat OSU and won a bowl game, but he was 3. He has never seen us beat OSU or finish out a season on the right path and I hate it

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 11:44 AM ^

Yes or no: do you expect this program to do better than .500 against Iowa, PSU, MSU, Wiscy and bowl Opponents?

Iowa - yes

PSU - no, .500 is expected

Wiscy - no, .500 is expected

MSU - yes

Do you expect them to ever compete with OSU?

Yes, compete...he did in 2016 and 2017

Best OSU? 

No, not under the current conditions of OSU.  

If “unrealistic” is answering yes to the first two questions I asked then I need to find something better to do on Saturdays.

You're leaving out he's undefeated against NW, Nebraska, Minnesota, Purdue, Rutgers, and Maryland.  All in all is he disappointing, yes.  Are there issues?  Yes.  I mentioned many.  He has lots of flaws.  But, I don't think you should expect any better against OSU, PSU, or Wiscy when looking around at their records.  PSU & Wiscy are about equal to UM and it makes sense JH beats them half the time.  OSU is heads and shoulders above the rest and it makes sense he loses to them all the time.  If you expect any different you fall into the category of unrealistic UM fans that think UM is something they are not and have never been.

username03

November 6th, 2020 at 11:31 AM ^

"But, UM can't do any of the things most people expected, like win a conference championship, as long as OSU is better."

If OSU was the only thing holding us back you might have a point but we're not even there yet. How about we try beating the rest of the mediocre teams on our schedule before hanging our hats on the OSU excuse? If we could get to a place where we can do that, I bet we beat OSU at least once in a while.

MGoStrength

November 6th, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^

If OSU was the only thing holding us back you might have a point but we're not even there yet. How about we try beating the rest of the mediocre teams on our schedule before hanging our hats on the OSU excuse? If we could get to a place where we can do that, I bet we beat OSU at least once in a while.

We did in 2016 and 2018.  If we get rid of the OSU games UM tied for the B1G title in 2016 with OSU in PSU like they did in the old days and in 2018 they get the outright title because OSU lost another B1G game and UM did not.  So, in the old system UM has 2 B1G titles.