Warde Manuel's stance on NIL. Where do you stand?
Here's a link to a story from last week giving more insight into Michigan's stance on NIL. I'm happy that Warde Manuel is supportive of NIL and the ability of athletes to earn money off their likeness. The statement about teaching athletes how to use NIL for life and making sure that athletes are doing something to get paid by the collective seemed a little amateuristic. They are bringing in millions of dollars to the university. If Joe Smith's dealership in Brighton wants to pay a recruit or current player $100,000 to do an ad campaign because they are a good player and not because they are good at selling cars, I am fine with that. Also, is it normal for an athletic director to sit in with a collective and tell them what they should do. I was under the impression that they were supposed to be independent of the university as the university itself can't help facilitate deals.
The statement about teaching athletes how to use NIL for life and making sure that athletes are doing something to get paid by the collective seemed a little amateuristic.
We are talking about amateurs, yes? If you mean that Warde looks like an amateur, see below.
If Joe Smith's dealership in Brighton wants to pay a recruit or current player $100,000 to do an ad campaign because they are a good player and not because they are good at selling cars, I am fine with that.
So is everyone else. That's what NIL is. It requires time (labor) to earn the NIL money.
Also, is it normal for an athletic director to sit in with a collective and tell them what they should do.
He's telling them that there better be some actual NIL-labor activity tied to the $. Yes, he can tell them to follow NCAA and UM rules.
Remeber that some (most?) admins, fans, and the NCAA aren't OK with paying $100k to come play football at this school, no signing events, commercials, or time required. That's an inducement/pay for play.
I don't mean to be a jerk - is it still hard to differentiate between these? You must be already at UM to earn. You must do something other than play football to get the money. Whether you agree or not, that's been consistent from UM AD.
Other schools don't care about that line. "Come here and we'll pay you to play football". That's a football (at-will) employee, and it's technically against the rules.
Michigan is still engaged in inducements/pay for play. How do you think they are able to blow past the scholarship limit? We are paying some grad students and transfers up to $70k in NIL for their tuition, mostly through collectives. Does anyone think those players would all earn that much on the open market? Even if they have to do "something" for the money, there is no way they are providing adequate services commensurate to the amount of payment.
The market for anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. Until there's some kind of universal rules put into place to level the playing field (good luck with that), just be happy that Michigan has one of the biggest money cannons in college athletics. Keep Harbaugh on a level playing field with the $EC and Michigan will be in fine shape.
"Keep Harbaugh on a level playing field with the $EC and Michigan will be in fine shape."
This. All damn day.
A) there isn't an open market in football, so I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. It's all controlled on every level (salary cap).
B) can you link to any documentation about the $70k etc? I'd be curious
C) I'm not here to judge whether "doing something" like signing autographs is "worth" the dollar amounts. I'm simply explaining that the difference in requiring that something is the difference between TAMU and UM
A) There is a mostly open market for endorsement deals at the pro level however. And recent analysis from Opendorse shows that 80% of NIL money is coming from collectives, with only the remaining 20% coming from true endorsement deals. I think the difference is this: endorsement deals involve a legitimate business or organization paying what they think is a fair price for an sponsorship with an athlete. The implication is that they could find another celebrity for the opportunity, and their main goal is some sort of ROI. Collectives only service athletes and do not seek any ROI.
B) $70k is based on cost of attendance of out of state students at Michigan. If we aren't providing a scholarship, my assumption is we are providing an equal amount of dollars.
C) I disagree on the difference between Michigan and TAMU there. I think TAMU also requires some sort of quid pro quo, just with clearly wacky valuations (e.g. "Sign these 5 things and get paid $100k). Michigan's plan for Hail Impact would involve a modest amount of work (24 hrs of community service, a few seminars, and a written essay) for $40k. Is that level of effort from even the ends of the roster really worth that much? Aren't we really talking about to what degree we're funneling money to players?
How did A&M NIL work did they pay them all up front and then when they weren't happy left for another school to get more NIL money? If you do get money it should be in a contract and you can't leave after receiving your money if playing time isn't there unless you pay back some of that money. A free education and some type of stipend should be enough. Give them free housing and enough money to get food and car expense for all athletes. Hell I would have played football just so I don't have a student loans to pay back. Not all students can afford school or get scholarships or grants. I couldn't get any aid for school because my parents made to much yet they were living pay check to pay check so to me athletes have it good. But with all the money being made off them start a retirement fund or some fund when they are done with that sport they receive compensation. I probably will get bashed but college sports is now professional and to me it is ruining college sports and the smaller schools are losing our also. CMU, WMU or MAC schools will never compete in the NIL era
That number blows my mind for P5 football players. There are about 5,525 players (65×85), so thats about $100k average per player.
I get some earn more and some less, but that average is way higher than I would have guessed, given most probably only get a few k per year.
is it safe to guess you don't like some of the developments in modern college athletics?
Let's be happy that Michigan at least appears to be trying to keep up with the pack here.
I'm completely fine with NIL, and I'd be completely fine with pay for play. I hate when people spend so much effort trying to make something appear different than what it clearly is.
There are no rules. Just some limp, powerless, words in a document. It is the wild west.
I really wonder about Manuel, Harbaugh, and Wangler about MPower and Hail Impact. Michigan’s NIL was laughably bad for two years and all of sudden they come with this groundbreaking program seemingly out of nowhere.
I’ll try to find the the Reddit comment, but someone claimed that a student created an NIL proposal titled MPower a year ago and that harbaugh used it without permission.
I thought it was bs at first. But then they posted pictures of a MPower entrepreneurship NIL PowerPoint that was pretty much the same as what harbaugh has been promoting. They even had pictures of emails about MPower from last summer. There was another attachment about an MGoBuild NIL proposal in one of the MPower emails, but I don’t think they shared pictures of that proposal. I’ll check for it again though.
update: here it is. The link is in the comment
Can you share a link to this reddit post?
We’re waiting.
I've never understood the Michigan was "laughably bad at NIL" argument. Was that during the past two years, when the players we had recruited in the five years prior to that led us to the NCAA College Playoffs? Was it during the past few years, when we established the relationships that led to this year's wonderful recruiting class? (They didn't just form relationships with us in the past two months, after all). Was it when Blake Corum decided to return?
Oh, "it's basketball," you're saying. But we kept Dickinson for at least one year when many thought he'd be leaving, and maybe two. And we had great recruits coming in, and high-profile transfers coming in, before administrative problems rose their head.
If we have more than anecdotal evidence that we are "laughably bad," fair enough. But this "common wisdom" that Michigan "sucks" at some element of recruiting has been such a persistent and inevitable trope, over the years, despite our consistent success in pretty much every sport, that it makes me roll my eyes.
(Ohio State, which is held out as being wonderful at NIL ... how has their basketball program done compared to ours?).
Borderline semantics. The prevailing theory has been that Michigan's NIL has been an issue. cade mentioned this in that podcast he did after leaving for Iowa. Harbaugh tried to leave for the NFL twice in the past two years and NIL was mentioned as a potential reason. I think that Valiant had pushed jersey shirts and a Hutch jersey as their flagship NIL stuff before this.
I'm somewhat lost on your overarching points about recruiting and success. The NIL rules have only been around for two years, but you said that the success over the past two season was based on players recruited five years ago. So what does that have to do with Michigan's NIL strength the past two years?
Look, I'm not going to sit here and act like I know the ins and outs of recruiting and NIL. Just like with any labor market people are paying for expected performance. Michigan has always done a great job developing talent. Turning 3 stars into day draft picks. They've succeeded despite the NIL situation.
Just seems to me that our football team happens to have had the most successful back-to-back seasons in our lifetimes at the exact same time everyone is sure that we're mishandling NIL. Seems to me there's at least as much support for the claim that we're crushing the NIL era as there is that we're terrible at it.
Players who leave for almost empirically better playing opportunities (Cade to start, which he would not have done here, and Hunter to compete for a national championship, which he was unlikely to do here this year) are not necessarily the best sources of information about our NIL success. Doesn't mean they're not worth listening to — but their opinions aren't necessarily authoritative, either
We have lost, by my count, one starter, over the years, in both programs, to another college team. And he a senior. While, at that same time, bringing a large number in. I just don't understand the hand-wringing.
UM could sue them for improperly using block M. :)
Could? Probably would. They're notoriously strict about plagiarism... in certain cases.
DennisFranklinisdaman will probably come back with a dissertation about how neither "could sue" and "would sue" are wrong. Be ready to cite UM lawsuits.
"They're notoriously strict about plagiarism... in certain cases. "
Light-hearted example: When I was with the MMB, we were granted the use of the particular formula for "blue" that was used within Michigan stadium so we could paint our ladders and other assorted paraphernalia to match. I picked up gallons of said formula several times at the approved supplier, but with strict instructions not to share the formula.
So, at the risk of lawsuit, I will share the basics now: Slightly more black than blue, a touch of white.
Paint your lawn furniture accordingly at your own risk.
Why would Harbaugh have to get someone's permission to use the term MPower? It's not a trademark in this context (it is in a bunch of other contexts), nor is it protected by copyright.
Obligatory IANAL. I don’t think the name MPower is the issue. I think the issue is that someone else created the actual NIL concept and Harbaugh has promoted it as his own creation and didn’t even change the name.
An idea or concept can’t be copyrighted. However, there could be issues if he or wangler used any of the content of the slides or proposal when they did pitched it to partners and donors or on their tour. Their actual plan or proposal is copyrighted upon creation even though the concept isn’t.
I think it’s more of an ethical issue than a legal one. The ethics don’t really matter as long as we keep winning at this clip if we’re being really honest with ourselves.
I personally cringe every time I hear about our leadership moral grandstanding regarding NIL. It's time to take the maize-coloured glasses off and look around - teams that win championships pay players.
It's inexcusable to have the brand, intelligence, and global reach that Michigan has, and then muddy it with puritanism. Let's STFU, sell more memorabilia than any other school in the world, and pay players shitloads of money to win championships.
So, standing for something = moral grandstanding?
Standing for something = Puritanism?
Why do we love Michigan? Because it’s global reach means it can sell more memorabilia than any other school? Because it can spend shitloads of money to win championships? Or because, for but one example, it has the brains, commitment and resources to help Elliot Mealor and thousands of other paraplegics walk?
Bit of a false equivalency. We don't have to give up one for the other. I think the Football program is able to still find moral, quality, top tier talent without us giving up all of the educational advantages.
It’s like speeding.
If the speed limit is 65 and everyone is driving 70, and 70 is accepted by law enforcement, you are not standing on moral high ground by driving 65.
this, so hard.
I think Dennis doesn't know what Puritanism is. That comparison was completely non-sensical.
It was sensical. He didn’t mean it in a religious way. Shirley, you can’t be serious.
Sorry, it's non-religious meaning largely deals with censorious moral criticism. I'm still not following the sense.
Please don’t call him, “Shirley.”
What are you talking about, though? This is possible right now. Athletes get some money if you buy a jersey.
That's A) not that much for most players since their share is small and B) doesn't start until one is on the team and worth their own jersey.
Are you asking to pay recruits to get them to come here?
I'm not asking anyone for anything.
I'm saying Michigan should be willing to recruit the way Bama, Ohio State, and UGA do. It works.
If that means funneling money directly to players - they should do exactly that.
I guess the thing is those teams don't directly pay the players. They have boosters who don't work for the university doing that.
Whatever Michigan and the powers-that-be want to do with regards to NIL is their business, and I do think there is some benefit to their approach of not paying upfront, as it does prevent that kind of "mercenary / gun-for-hire" culture that A&M is currently drowning in. It also certainly helps keep Michigan's strong culture intact when you don't have some 18 year old kid coming into the building for the first time and he's making more money than his position coach.
That said, the downside to it is you're likely shutting yourself off from a lot of those kinds of players who are the difference between making the CFP and advancing through it or even winning it. So if this is the route Michigan wants to go then so be it, but that also means that no one should be throwing their arms up in the air and wondering why difference-making recruits are slipping through their fingers. On top of the already built-in advantages that all those programs have, they're going to pay upfront, and that matters to a lot of kids. And I don't blame them for a second. Especially the ones who come from families that don't have money.
I sure as s**t know that the 17-18 year old version of myself would have probably taken that money rather go somewhere that asked me to just bet on myself and hope I'll get the money later, when a place like Alabama will pay me now and, if I perform, will also pay me later too and get me on Dr. Pepper commercials.
As far as I can tell NIL is, at the present time, fully the Wild, Wild West. Universities, agencies, whomever can do whatever the hell they wish. When there is no enforcement of any rules-it means there are no rules. This dove-tails quite smoothly with this invasive, anarchical "freedom culture" that is coming to the fore among us. Here, the possible exploitations of every kind open the gates to a very destructive path of civil endangerment that appears to be willfully ignorant of many very bad unintended consequences.
I am for the principles of NIL but we humans have long and firmly established the necessity of having rules to protect us from ourselves.
Did anyone see the WTKA round table post, from yesterday? Nil vs Nil? What's your take on what has been discussed slightly since Nil's inception?
Is that like spy vs spy?
I hadn’t thought about Spy vs Spy since 1989. That’s awesome. Thank you.
The University brand brings in billions of dollars every year. People are tuning in for the winged helmet whether it's Daxton Hill or Jordan Kovacs lining up at safety. If Stetson Bennett is playing for North Texas, Georgia still brings in astronomical sums because of the Dawg fan base.
If you want six figures of extra income in addition to your free tuition, food, and lodging, show up to the community service event or record your cameo videos for the autograph weirdos, if it's not too much trouble.
2 things:
1. That's cool and all, as long as you're fine losing recruits to all the schools that don't require those things.
2. Are you of the belief that there's no connection between the profitability of an athletic dept and the on-field/court success of its revenue-generating sports?
1. They're #3 on the 247 composite in football at the moment.
2. Miami and Nebraska exist. A&M went 5-7 last year and the cash cow keeps mooing.
1. Because our class size is double the size of many lower-ranked schools. We're still nowhere near Alabama, Georgia, OSU, and a handful of others in terms of consistently landing elite recruits.
2. So by that response, you're confirming you think on-field results have zero connection to profitability?
For the established schools whose fans and alumni aren't going anywhere? For the mega conferences where revenue is equally shared? Yeah it isn't the end of the world, unless you think TCU is jumping someone like Sparty due to their CFP appearance?
Pretty easy to look up but that is exactly what happened. TCU attendance was up 17.8% in 2022 over 2021. Their undergrad applications increased by 2.5x. They secured $51M in athletic donations. Their football revenue went from $39 million to $61 million by making the CFP. So yeah they did jump MSU.
Yeah his example is especially dumb considering you can easily see that those rosters with Kovacs that lost a lot clearly made less money than the roster with Dax Hill that won a big ten championship. I mean have we forgotten the free tickets with a coke purchase?
Winning generates more revenue. Better players leads to winning. NIL incentives leads to better players. This whole "Michigan would still be Michigan no matter who you put out there" is one of the dumbest arguments regarding NIL that keeps getting repeated. Start 22 walk-ons next year and see how many tickets they sell. Michigan is Michigan because they have a tradition of winning, if they consistently put out the talent that North Texas does, they would be viewed as North Texas. No brand is permanent, no matter how big it is.
But they won't be starting 22 walk-ons. They keep doing what they do with player development and there's no reason to hand a 17 year old a few million up front only for him to transfer after a year like Quinn Ewers.
I don't have enough knowledge to make a well informed opinion on this matter.