Using Timeouts for Defensive Substitutions

Submitted by MaizeBlueA2 on November 22nd, 2021 at 8:32 AM

I'm curious, has anyone ever seen a team that prefers to use it's timeouts in more of a basketball manner?

Less emphasis on setting up a play and stopping the clock for the offense, and more emphasis on fatigue/recovery and stopping runs/momentum?

I ask because Aidan Hutchinson rarely leaves the field, but when he's tired, he...like every human, isn't nearly as effective.

However, due to the rules of college football...you can't sub him off, because the other team will just go no-huddle and he'll never get back on the field until the next series. Obviously a huge disadvantage for Michigan. Typically if he can get 2 plays, he can come back on the field and go full speed again.

But, what if we just burned timeouts on defense? Is it worth it? That's 4, 5, even 6 drives where you can get a break, sub the right personnel back in, and hopefully end a drive with your DEs at 90% energy (arbitrary number), rather than, let's say 40%.

I've never really seen someone do it intentionally, and maybe for good reason.

More times than not, you don't see teams intentionally use defensive timeouts. Instead you see the DT get "the signal," and then fall to the ground with a leg cramp.

Which, I don't love it, but if that's what it takes...

GoBlue96

November 22nd, 2021 at 8:40 AM ^

If the offense is going no huddle, no subs, they are getting just as tired as the defense.  If someone on the D needs a breather, I suggest getting a stinger for a play and not wasting timeouts.  

MaizeBlueA2

November 22nd, 2021 at 8:33 PM ^

The offense isn't getting as tired as the defense.

For one, the defense is chasing. But also, it doesn't know where the play is going so it has to go all out every play.

For example, if it's no huddle and I'm a WR away from the play, I can kind of take a play off.

In addition, you're not always matched on the same guy...so we can put WR1 on you...make you chase a go route. Then the next play, we move WR1 somewhere else, now you have WR2 and he runs a go.

You just ran 2 go routes trying to cover. Meanwhile, they did not.

And even if it were the same, it's still advantage offense as a tired back 7 is more likely to commit a PI or holding, and a tired DL is a softer pass rush.

Sure a tired OL is more likely to hold as well, but again, not if you're going up against a guy who can barely move.

Anyone who has played football will tell you it's much tougher to play D than O when you're tired. 

BallsoHarb

November 22nd, 2021 at 8:47 AM ^

It’s not a terrible idea if it’s the first half, maybe in a 3rd and long situation to increase your chances of getting off the field vs some stupid breakdown because the DL can’t get to the QB.

Maybe the tackler can lay on their guy a little longer, or slowly get off of them. And if the defense has the chance, maybe grab the football and “jog” it over to the official. That probably risks a delay of game though.

I have no problem with a defensive player taking a dive. It’s not fun to watch, but it’s the only safe response to the no huddle, no time to sub rules.

I personally think that they should allow a 5-10s substitution time period regardless if the offense subs or not. CF feels like the NBA the last few years where all the rules favored offense, and I would say this year’s NBA rule changes have made the league much more fun to watch.

Eng1980

November 22nd, 2021 at 8:48 AM ^

It is part of the game.  Sometimes they pass the ball when a run is expected.

The defense is more likely to call a timeout to setup a goal line stand.  First let's see if the fast tempo offense can get into the red zone before you burn a timeout.

lilpenny1316

November 22nd, 2021 at 9:10 AM ^

I wondered why we didn't use them against Sparty when we were obviously going to be out of position when they snapped the ball in the red zone. If nobody's going to "come up lame", then call a TO and regroup. When you're up 16 points, that TO could be the difference between giving up a TD or eventually forcing the opponent to decide between a FG or going for it on 4th down.

MaizeBlueA2

November 22nd, 2021 at 8:36 PM ^

Same, this is where my question came from. There's 3 possibilities and they're all bad.

  1. You can't substitute...you're getting penalties and even when you don't, you're misaligned. 
  2. You're gassed and guys aren't getting a pass rush or filling holes against the run.
  3. Your best players are on the sideline and can't get back into the game.

At some point, you have to stop the play. How you go about it is up for debate, but you can't just watch them skate down the field. 

Buy Bushwood

November 22nd, 2021 at 9:34 AM ^

There's no rule against subbing anyone off, you just might get caught with too many men on the field if the other team isn't subbing.  I like the Les Miles timeout of having someone get a cramp.  I mean if teams aren't going to get called for constant holding, I don't think there's any moral dilemma with some mild cramps sitting players down.  

stephenrjking

November 22nd, 2021 at 9:41 AM ^

No, this is not a good idea.

It starts with a false assumption—that Aidan would be subbed off if they could get him back on.

But they’re not subbing off one of the top 5 players in college football.

Michigan got dinged by tempo against MSU when MSU converted third downs against pass rush packages and Michigan wanted to get its base personnel back on the field. I don’t need to tell you that Aidan is not going to be subbed off for a third and long situation.

So Michigan axed the tempo subs against Penn State and got tempo plays against some suboptimal packages and still kept PSU out of the end zone.

Thing is, TOs have different utility in basketball. Each gains you, at most, a single possession in a 60-80 possession game.

A time out in football is much more valuable to either save a possession by averting a costly offensive penalty, or even better, to work with other time out to preserve and entire high-leverage possession (or provide a much better suite of offensive options in a high-leverage possession) at the end of a half or a game.

You don’t burn a time out to get a DT swapped on first down on your 30 early in the 3rd quarter when you can use it to attack the middle of the field to get into field goal range with 15 seconds to go trailing by 2 points, or to gain a chance to get the ball to try to get a FG at all.

The time and the game situation options TOs provide at end of half moments make them far too valuable to torch to get a couple of substitutions somewhere.

MaizeBlueA2

November 22nd, 2021 at 9:08 PM ^

You wrote all of that and misunderstood what I was saying.

Which was...

Yes, if you sub him off...you're not getting him back on...so what do you do?

A. Live with tired, less effective players?

Or

B. Call timeout and give them a rest so you can leave them on?

...or "B*" fake an injury to give them a rest so you can leave them on...

 

Taking the fake the injury option away for a moment. The question is simple. Is using a TO on defense to rest your best players, stop momentum, etc. worth it?

That's really it. 

Maize in Cincy

November 22nd, 2021 at 9:52 AM ^

You can easily get 1 guy on and 1 guy off when another team is in no huddle, you just have to have practiced it and be prepared.

This team clearly hadn’t done so, hopefully they have fixed the issues.

oakapple

November 22nd, 2021 at 10:35 AM ^

Especially in the second half, timeouts are too valuable in an end-of-game situation to use them like in basketball. You take a time-out if you must, but every coach wants to have all three remaining for the two-minute drill, in case they are needed. Also, in basketball you can carry over up to two time-outs into the second half; in football, you cannot.

Obviously, you must be prepared for tempo, and in the MSU game Michigan was not. With only three TOs per half, that cannot be your answer for tempo. Michigan probably should have used some of their TOs, but there were more than six plays in that game when Michigan wasn’t properly set.

micheal honcho

November 22nd, 2021 at 11:10 AM ^

I’ve said this before. All timeouts should be reserved for the D. That’s how you should start a game. Situations in the 2nd half can alter this but at the start of the game the coaching staff should assume all TO’s belong to the DC. It only makes sense in modern football. The offense gets to choose their play and even if the D is throwing a curve at you it should be “oh well they guessed right, we lose 4 yds and live to play another day” The D is constantly having to adjust and react and a wrong call can be an instant TD. 

brad

November 22nd, 2021 at 11:46 AM ^

In the first half, it's probably worth it.  M could avoid the scene in Penn State's second drive in which they knifed down the field against our second D Line the entire drive.  A timeout is clearly less valuable than giving up a touchdown, particularly in the first half.

We don't even need timeouts all the time though.  If we're playing to win and not worrying so much about being gentlemanly, one of our d linemen should just stay down and take his breather on the field, forcing the refs to stop the game and get a leisurely substitution.  This approach has been used against tempo since 2007, and no rule prevents it.  Win or lose Michigan, in some cases, it can be our choice!

Teeba

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:42 PM ^

The number of plays for OSU’s first half drives against MSU were: 12, 4, 4, 6, 6, 6, and 10 plays. The defense getting tired during those drives was not the problem.

Hopefully, we can keep our offense on the field so the defense can rest in between OSU drives, not during them.

Harlans Haze

November 22nd, 2021 at 11:01 PM ^

For most teams and coaching staffs, this would be a "hell no," but realizing how poorly time outs are generally used by this coaching staff, having designated scenarios for their use might not be the worst idea...just not for substitutions.