Talking Cars Tuesday; The Future is CUV?
As I've stated before; I've kind of moved on beyond CUV's for alot of my transport. In my opinion: they're big; don't do the people moving as well as a minivan; don't have the driving dynamics, mileage, or 'luggage seclusion' of a car (Oh how I miss you 24 cu ft trunk in the Five Hundred); and the luggage space is smaller than the rear cargo area suggests unless you don't mind luggage raining on your back passengers and having zero rearward visibility. If you have a 3rd row; even if it's decently executed, it still sucks compared to a minivan. In many ways, despite all their more car like advancements they are compromise vehicles. Yet, they are sweeping the industry in an unprecedented manner when you think of entire automakers giving up cars due to the massive sales of CUV's and their increased margins.
I mean, I like my Jeep Commander. With the 40/20/40 rear seat split, it provides some useful things (I can load skiis and the kids in the back). But it's definitely more of a true SUV with a specific purpose (Take me to trailheads in deep snow in winter; tow the boat in summer) and I don't drive it anywhere distance wise because mileage sucks and it's loud.
I think my perfect vehicle would have been a minivan with a real AWD system (capable of really pushing alot of torque to each axle) with good ground clearance and a stout enough engine to tow. But no one makes that anymore.
So my question is:
If you are a CUV lover; what made you make the jump from a car or minivan to CUV? For those of the prognosticating mood, do you think the pendulum will ever shift backward in the short to mid term?
January 28th, 2020 at 9:47 AM ^
If I'm prognosticating, CUVs are to stay. There's a reason so many car companies offer mostly different versions of CUVs and are getting rid of their larger models and standard cars.
But if I'm really prognosticating, it's that by 2030 almost all cars are electric.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:50 AM ^
An electric discussion is a different thread - but I disagree with 2030. If you'd said "had some form of hybridization" I'm with you 100%.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:55 AM ^
I mean we already have hybridization. But with the climate change talk (gasp*), it's inevitable that carbon emissions are going to continue to be reduced. I believe the foreign car companies will almost force the Big 3 to follow.
Every major car company is currently working on it and have made it a priority. 10 years is a long time...who would have thought in 2010 that we would have autonomous vehicles on the road? Once innovation on a product starts, it happens rather quickly.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
I must have missed that, which autonomous vehicles are on the road?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/business/how-does-an-autonomous-car-work/
January 28th, 2020 at 10:02 AM ^
I guess it depends on your definition of autonomous. Tesla has several cars on the road that have an autopilot feature that requires the driver to touch the steering wheel every few minutes, but other than that, the car drives itself.
So there aren't any completely-autonomous vehicles out there, but I consider Teslas out there now essentially the same. To say otherwise is just arguing over semantics.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:07 AM ^
It's not exactly semantics, there are levels to these things.
Teslas have hardware for Level 3 Autonomy, with software that's constantly changing. "Autopilot" is NOT autonomous driving, and that distinction has killed people. Autopilot is fancy cruise control.
Zero cars on the road are Level 5, actual autonomous driving.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:13 AM ^
There's a difference between full autonomous driving and what Tesla currently has on the road. But my entire point in this is that innovation moves quickly and full-autonomous driving is coming. By 2030 there will absolutely be fully-autonomous vehicles on the road.
And by 2030, you can bet your ass electric cars will be there as well. They already are here.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:18 AM ^
Having cars on the road vs. "most" is where we've got our semantic issue.
Making cars is hard and the movement is going to go a lot slower than most folks think. Electric cars went from 1.6% of the US market in March 2018 to 1.8% of the US market in 2019. They're here, they're getting more popular, they're a tiny, tiny (but yes, growing) percentage of the market. I'd bet they're closer to 20% by 2030 than 50%.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:55 AM ^
One thing that Tesla DOES do autonomously is charge customers for expensive software they don't want to use, apparently.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
According to my friend that works there, the newest model S's and X's have the capability for Level 5, it's just not activated.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:59 PM ^
"capability for Level 5" probably means that they have sensors capable of sensing the world around them and actuators capable of steering, shifting, braking, etc. Those are the easy parts. What's missing is the software to make those things work with extreme reliability, and that's the piece everyone is still working on. The model X is capable of Level 5 autonomy in the same way that a decapitated body is capable of walking - technically accurate, but the brain is a critical component for success.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:01 PM ^
He says the software exists too. How reliable it is I have no idea.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:14 AM ^
Disagree about semantics. An autonomous car could pick you up and drive you home after too many drinks at the bar. Teslas aren't there yet.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:11 PM ^
https://www.michiganradio.org/post/grand-rapids-now-has-driverless-shuttles-downtown-you-can-ride-free
“Driverless” shuttles are a thing in GR now. Autonomous cars are coming.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:28 PM ^
Sh..... Electric is bad, Tesla is bad. Remember, we are on a Michigan board.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:44 PM ^
I don't think that's fair to many; especially those who work in the industry that have divergent opinions.
I'm as big of a domestic automaker fanboy as I think one can be in his 40's. But I love the industry better.
Tesla has done some amazing things; and their cars have some really amazing features. I think fully electric is the way of the future and there are some very exciting possibilities. What rankles is that if next year Subaru puts out a car where the infotainment system glitches once every 90 days they'll get murdered in the press. I remember a review of a Cadillac DTS where the author went off for a couple paragraphs talking about how a wiring harness below the dash hung too low, and how for a car in that price range it was unacceptable.
However, If Tesla puts a car out where the trim falls off and the windows break and you can't get the thing easily serviced, you hear crickets because of the other stuff they do well. It's just irritating. They remind me of some of the Landrovers of my youth. Amazing off roaders? Hell yes! Likely to break and leave you broke and stranded? Hell yes! But people qualified their praise of Landrovers. "Great ideas. Shitty quality"
Will Tesla get better and survive? I'm betting so. Are they there yet? No. What could be an existential threat? Toyota decides to go all in on an electric sedan.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:33 PM ^
Michigan has EV companies based here too. We just don't have the charging infrastructure. I don't understand why people are so afraid of changes or options though. Is there not room for both?
January 28th, 2020 at 12:34 PM ^
* I'm not an autonomous fan
But while I think full autonomy, when they can get it right, has some cool parts; this 'Semi-Autonomy' is the absolute worst. It invites people to become complacent while still putting the full force of responsibility on them. I would outlaw them, and I rarely say that.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:36 PM ^
Just curious, have you engaged auto-pilot in a Tesla while on an expressway before? Or are you basing your comments off of what your perception of the experience is like?
January 28th, 2020 at 12:53 PM ^
Fair enough. Reading and tech specs.
But, does that matter? Tesla itself says autopilot isn't autonomous.
Do I still need to pay attention while using Autopilot?
Yes. Autopilot is a hands-on driver assistance system that is intended to be used only with a fully attentive driver. It does not turn a Tesla into a self-driving car nor does it make a car autonomous.
So maybe it's the bees knees but if it screws up and hits something/one its on *you* not the vehicle. And the fact that it might demands that you have to be vigilant. Hard to do when it's doing 95% of the driving.
Having something that lulls you into complacency while requiring you to be alert isn't a good idea.
Again, does full autonomy have real benefits? Hell yes! This half way? No way.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:59 PM ^
Yes, it does matter that you have never tried the technology you are commenting on.
I used it a couple of hours a day when my commute to work required it. I would arrive home with much more energy than when i made the ride in a car without it. I was still alert, i was still "nagged" to confirm i am paying attention every 30 seconds, but i didn't have to worry about the stop and go traffic as well as the constant adjusting of the wheel to keep the car centered.
When friends and family visit, i use it with them. They are very apprehensive at first, but after the initial shock, they forget i am even using it and become comfortable with notion that the car is doing 99% of the work.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:42 PM ^
Probably a hydrogen and electric hybrid. Not current hydrogen tech but a novel way to generate hydrogen on board rather than fill up and store in a tank.
supposedly Bob Lazar has a hydrogen powered corvette utilizing difficult to obtain pellets which did do this. The pellets are used by the nuclear power industry hence the problems acquiring them.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:28 PM ^
"supposedly Bob Lazar has a hydrogen powered corvette utilizing difficult to obtain pellets which did do this."
The Bob Lazar of Area 51 fame? Emphasis on "supposedly."
"Difficult to obtain pellets" is almost the textbook definition of unobtanium.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:46 PM ^
I initially heard his interview over 10 yrs ago. Here you go, I did the difficult part of finding the video about the car. At the end of this he talks about the hydride being classified as a weapons grade material. Illegal to buy but not illegal to manufacture yourself.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:47 PM ^
I initially heard his interview over 10 yrs ago. Here you go, I did the difficult part of finding the video about the car. At the end of this he talks about the hydride being classified as a weapons grade material. Illegal to buy but not illegal to manufacture yourself.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:49 AM ^
Ha! Competing TCTs today.
In terms of your question for the shift, there are a few reasons that people today are buying essentially tall station wagons:
- Gas mileage is better than it was on "traditional" body on frame SUVs. However weight and aerodynamics means that cars are still much better
- Automakers charge more for them, and make better profit, so they'd rather sell you the CUV
- Consumer tastes - people think of these tall wagons as the quintessential "family car" thanks to advertising around #2.
- An aging population and ergonomics - many people find the "hip point" of stepping into a CUV easier than "falling" down into a car, or stepping up into a truck.
January 28th, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
I'd also add that there are not a lot of AWD sedans, aside from Subaru and people in the North are convinced they need AWD for snow, rain...
January 28th, 2020 at 10:03 AM ^
AWD marketing has been an amazing thing. Snow tires are so much better. Sure, AWD and snow tires would be the best - but we've had almost no snow this year.
Buying AWD for the 1-2 days a year with bad snow is as smart as buying a truck for the 1-2 days a year where your trunk isn't big enough.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:11 AM ^
Even snow tires are unnecessary imho. I lived in the snow belt of West Michigan for 40 years and front drive with normal all season tires were never an issue until snow got 8+ inches. And if it's that bad you shouldn't be out there unless you are emergency services anyway.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:12 AM ^
I have all season tires, but winters will be better for most people.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:51 AM ^
8" = emergency services? one day in the UP it snowed 3'. repeat, 3'. and i drove my trusty old 4x4 diesel suburban to work, no problem. it had 33.5" BFG's, but that was about it for tires and actually thinner tires of the same height would've been better that day.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
That's the UP. Buy all the 4x4s, AWDs, Sherman Tanks whatever you people up there want sir. Bless you and the 17 other people who live up there and aren't in/work for a prison or college.
Most of my family lives in the upper lower, and I don't begrudge them their choice in vehicles either. But 90% of people in Michigan don't live up there. They don't need AWD, or snow tires, they just need to slow the hell down when it snows. This is America, you can have both, but you don't need them.
January 28th, 2020 at 12:51 PM ^
17 people? 18 at least. probably 19 if we count a visitor.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:17 AM ^
I mostly agree that AWD is unnecessary 90% of the year. In NE Ohio it's one of those things that when I actually do need it, I'm very thankful that I have it. By my house there is a large hill that is the quickest way to get to the highway. At least once a year there will be cars with spinning tires stuck on the hill, and I have no issue whatsoever (Admittedly, this could be more of a tire issue).
As a Subaru customer, it's one of those things where it's a vehicle I was going to buy anyway, so having it standard is just a bonus.
January 28th, 2020 at 10:21 AM ^
I see AWD as a safety feature. I'm not going cheap when it comes to safety even though it's rarely used. Most systems are disconnecting now so it really gives the best of both worlds.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:12 AM ^
What's safe about it? Doesn't stop any better with the extra weight
January 28th, 2020 at 11:20 AM ^
Better traction in slippery conditions....rarely need it like an airbag but I'm glad I have it when I do.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:26 AM ^
Just curious what benefit AWD gives you vs snow tires. Snow tires are cheaper, offer better traction and help you stop as well as start. They also can be removed as opposed to AWD weight which can't be removed.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:31 AM ^
I drive all year with chains on my tires so I stop just fine.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:22 AM ^
AWD will only help you make it up a hill or start from a stop. AWD provides no safety benefit once your car is moving.
Snow tires will be cheaper and will help with both starting and stopping. Stopping is the key to actual safety and everyone has all wheel brakes.
January 28th, 2020 at 1:08 PM ^
to the extent that AWD and 4x4 are pretty close, i disagree. while its true that AWD/4x4 won't help you stop, both of those systems help you 'go' no matter if its up, down, turning, etc, and all of that is a safety feature.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:02 AM ^
I'll respectfully disagree. Living in TC we get enough snow, even in a down year like this, where AWD is the real deal. I've towed more than one downstater out of a ditch or up their driveway when they show up with their 2WD CUV. And on the way home there is at least 2-3 days/year when traffic is backed up because some dude can't make it up a hill and is waggling all over the place as his front tires search for traction.
Of course, this is just for me. When I did live downstate I felt differently. I was fine with my 2wd Intrepid.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:36 AM ^
AWD and Snow Tires are for sissies.... Until you're in a car that isn't getting any traction and you're stuck in the middle of BFE with three scared/bored kids in the back seat and there isn't a nearby gas station.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:21 PM ^
AWD: Get to my cottage with 14" of snow in driveway. Pull through snow into garage. Snowblow driveway.
non-AWD: Get to my cottage with 14" of snow in driveway. Park on side of road with emergency flashers on until I can snowblow driveway.
January 28th, 2020 at 3:18 PM ^
Most people just don't understand how AWD works. It doesn't do much for traction (and 4WD does nothing). The only real benefit is if you go off the road you have a better chance of getting back on it. Also, the benefits of AWD vary depending on the make. It's not like every AWD is a Mercedes 4matic or BMW xDrive.
Personally, I have found that your assertion that 2WD + snow tires is much safer than AWD + all season tires is true. It's amazing how much traction you can get using snow tires. In most northern European countries snow tires are required by law in the winter.
January 28th, 2020 at 4:12 PM ^
you either didn't mean what you wrote, or it came out wrong, right?
January 28th, 2020 at 10:22 PM ^
AWD helps somewhat with traction because it will use sensors (usually ABS, but 4matics and a lot of copycats are more complicated) to allow slippage to individual wheels. It's like having posi but with more control over where the slippage occurs. 4WD just means you have power going to all four wheels and it does nothing for traction.
In my opinion, AWD and 4WD are actually more dangerous than 2WD because it provides the driver with an unsafe amount of confidence. It allows you to go forward more easily in the snow--but that doesn't mean your tires are providing more grip. The slippage that fancy AWD systems provide just compensate for when traction is lost. I think it's better to have more traction to begin with (snow tires) than to have a system to compensate for when traction fails. It's the same way with ABS--if your ABS kicks in, you have fucked up.
Obviously, with a good driver AWD can provide some great advantages, and the ideal winter scenario would be a BMW xDrive with snow tires (because discerning drivers drive BMWs). The problem is that everyone thinks that they're a good driver and almost no one is.
Maybe I wrote something stupid. If I did, I didn't catch it. Wouldn't be the first time.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:07 AM ^
Many sedans offer it. The Taurus/Fusion line did. The 300/Charger do as well. IIRC GM did with the Malibu as well. Not sure about Toyota/Honda.
January 28th, 2020 at 2:39 PM ^
Many luxury imports have AWD or offer it. Infiniti and Audi for certain, I believe that Genesis, Mercedes, Lexus, et al also offer it.
January 28th, 2020 at 11:37 AM ^
We have AWD and a CUV because our garage spot at the time backed out into an alley (as does the one at the place we bought), and alleys usually either don't get plowed or it takes absolutely forever. No kids or anything, just a better setup for where we live. It's our only car, so having something where we can put the seats down and have a lot of cargo space is great, don't care about the segregated luggage compartment, the CUV is more versatile.