Spath: Red unlikely to retire on his own
He corrected this tweet in a later reply. Promoted is supposed to be prompted.
Unless promoted by the Michigan AD, I'm hearing it's very likely Red Berenson will not to choose to retire on his own.
— Michael Spath (@MichaelSpathITH) April 6, 2017
@UmPuckhead Nope.
— Michael Spath (@MichaelSpathITH) April 6, 2017
has come up with Warde, then the proper thing to do is to give him one year to have a farewell tour and then retire. If he led Warde to believe that this was his last year, then Warde should gently push him out.
I think we should take the Brian approach and shit on the most successful hockey coach in Michigan history based on pure speculation that he may not retire.
False.
Vic Heyliger >>>>>>>>>>>> Red Berenson by a country mile.
Heyliger won 6 National Championships during a streak of 10 consecutive Frozen Fours. He was 6-1 in National Championship Games.
It actually annoys/bothers me that many Michigan fans don't even know Heyliger existed but will yap about Fielding Yost's MNCs from the turn of the 20th century.
If anything, Berenson underachieved. He recruited Bama-level talent to Michigan Hockey and has only 2 National Championships to show for it. He's like the Bobby Bowden or Dean Smith of college hockey.
Right, because winning a hockey national championship in the 1950s is definitely the same as winning one in 1998.
Ok.
Jerry York >>> Red Berenson. 4 > 2.
And unlike Berenson's Michigan, York's program hasn't fallen off a f***ing cliff.
Bowden knew the game had passed him by but he held FSU Football hostage. Berenson is doing the same.
In retirement, Bowden talked about how elderly coaches die soon after they retire. He invoked Bear Bryant. He said it was a major reason for why he hung on for as long as he did.
And I won't let you side-step your false statement. Heyliger > Berneson. No one in Heyliger's era matched what he did. If it was easier back then, why did none of Heyliger's peers not match his accomplishments? Hence, he will be the #1 all-time Michigan hockey coach until someone surpasses his accomplishments.
So to recap, you claimed Berenson is washed up like Dean Smith, who went to two Final Fours in his last four years, and then to support your argument, you pointed to the success of Jerry York, who has been to two Frozen Fours in the last four years. Got it.
1. I should've known better than to argue with someone who is less informed.
Time for a history lesson:
In the mid-late 80s, people used to accuse Dean Smith of doing "less with more." His teams were stacked with 8-9 McDAAs every season but his teams would lose to usually inferior teams in the Sweet 16.
Sure, Dean Smith finished strong but those of us who are old enough to remember the 80s recall that line. It came into existence because Coach K would lead lesser talented Duke teams to the Final Four seemingly every year while Dean's superior teams would exit early in the NCAAT.
Dean Smith had only 2 National Championships in his long career despite having more talent that just everyone post-John Wooden. Meanwhile, his peers like Bobby Knight and Denny Crum had won just as many or more National Championships with far fewer blue chip players. Knight and Crum were inconsistent but did "more with less" - the opposite of Dean Smth.
2. Learn to correctly comprehend what you freaking read.
I called Berenson the Bowden and Dean Smith. Each only won 2 National Championships despite having more talent than most of their peers.
Bowden had the most talented teams of the 90s but won only 2 National Championships.
Smith had more talent than any coach post John-Wooden but won only 2 National Championships.
And Berenson had just as much talent as anyone but won only 2 National Championships.
But since you want to focus on the end of Dean Smith's carrer, let me ask you...did Dean Smith miss 4 out of 5 NCAA Tournaments?
We both know the answer to that.
3. I said York >>>> Berenson. (Uh, are you trying? Or are you freaking trolling?)
York has taken BC to the NCAAT each season from 2010 to 2017, 4 Frozen Fours, and won 2 National Championships.
Meanwhile, Berenson has missed the NCAAT 4 of the past 5 seasons. And when he had a historically good offense, we didn't even get to the Regional Final much less the Frozen Four.
Again, learn to correctly comprehend what you read.
Finally, no matter how much you try to obfusctate the truth, the facts still stand:
1. Heyliger >>>>>>>>> Berenson
2. Berenson is now the Bobby Bowden of College Football
So your new argument is threefold:
1. Red Bereson is like Dean Smith because in the mid 1980s, a dozen years before he retired, Smith went to only three Elite Eights before winning another national title in 1993 and appearing in four more Final Fours prior to retiring.
2. Berenson is also like 1990s Bobby Bowden, who finished in the top 5 literally every year of the decade, winning two national titles.
3. Berenson is not the most successful coach in Michigan history because BC's coach has won a lot lately.
You are really bad at this.
You're twisting things but I'm not surprised. You're one of the posters here I detest. You've developed quite the reputation in your short time here...
1. Berenson is NOT the most successful coach in Michigan Hockey History becasue Heyliger won 6 National Championships in 7 National Championship Game appearances in 14 years at Michigan. Meanwhile, Berenson won 2 National Championships in 3 National Championship Game appearances in 33 years.
Heyliger's 6 in 14 vs Berenson's 2 in 33.
You do understand math, right? I can't wait to see you twist those numbers.
2a. Berenson is like Bowden in more ways than one. (I love how you gerrymandered this simple idea. Adorable attempt. Points for creativity)
- Both built their respective programs in the 80s.
- Both won 2 National Championships in the 90s (but should've won more)
- Both fucked the program they built by staying on too long.
Example: Michigan failed to make the NCAAT 4 out of Berenson's last 5 years. Similarly, FSU finished 7-6 in 3 of Bowden's final 4 years.
In each coach's heyday, Michigan used to be a lock for the NCAAT Frozen Four much like FSU used to be a lock to win 11 win games every season.
Michigan went to the Frozen Four 9 times in a period of 12 years. That's akin to FSU finishing top-5 for 14 consecutive seasons.
2b. Berenson is like Dean Smith because, like Dean Smith, Berenson underachieved relative to they talent they recruited. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. I think Berenson had the most talent (like Dean Smith did) but both have only 2 National Championships to show for all the talent they amassed.
In an alternative world, if Saban had won only 1 National Championship at Alabama despite recruiting #1 classes year after year, everyone would accuse him of underacheving or doing "less with more."
3. I think Berenson should be fired if he won't step aside because Michigan has gotten significangly and undeniably worse as Berenson has aged. Meanwhile, Jerry York has been able to maintain Boston College's elite status despite now being in his 70s.
I doubt anyone would want to see Berenson be fired IF Berenson had ben able to maintain Michigan's elite status in his 70s the same way York has been able to keep Boston College elite in old age.
It's funny to me to see you (intentionally?) conflate 2 separate ideas:
1. Heyliger >>>>>>>>> Berenson in all-time Michigan Hockey coach rankings
2. Berenson should be fired for selfishly deep-sixing the program he built. "No coach is bigger than the team." - Schembechler.
Let's see what new and creative ways you come up to f*** around. I'm actually amused.
You two are embarrassing yourselves.
First of all, there aren't a bunch of people dumping on Heyliger and saying such things about Berenson; Stu did, but so what? He's using total win metrics.
Yeah, Heyliger dominated the 50s; the 9 titles we are so proud of owe six of their number to him. He's a big deal.
But Frank Chuck is taking this to the point of actively trashing Red's glory days, when he was a great coach. Yeah, Red could have won more national titles. You know what? It turns out winning national titles is really hard. Flukey stuff happens. A puck hits Steve Shields in the shoulder, flips into the air, and dribbles over the line, knocking the team out in OT in the regional final (1994). Michigan goes OT with Maine twice, once with a GOAT-type team in 1993 and once going to multiple OTs and hitting multiple pipes in 1995. Our best team gets trapped to death by BU in a stunning upset in 1997. Minnesota defenseman Paul Martin barely gets his glove in the way of a Jason Ryznar shot that beats Minnesota in 2003 and propels Michigan to an easy title win over UNH. Billy Sauer gets the yips in 2008. A late 2-on-1 against UMD for the title can't find the net.
You use Jerry York (you know, maybe the greatest coach in college hockey history, certainly in the modern era) to bag on Red, completely ignoring that no other coach in the era of York and Red approaches York's level of success. Turns out it's hard to win two national titles. Jeff Sauer at Wisconsin? 2 titles. Dean Blais at North Dakota? 2 titles. Shawn Walsh at Maine? 2 National titles. Jack Parker managed 3, but his first was in 1978 and his third was in 2009 (a spread that might've given Red some false hope). Don Lucia at Minnesota? 2 national titles. George Gwozdecky at Denver? 2 national titles. It's hard to win national titles in college hockey.
By the way, you say Red didn't make the regional final last year, but Michigan DID make the regional final last season; that's where they lost to North Dakota, the day after beating Notre Dame. Frank, it sounds like you're puffing up Heyliger not because of your great respect for him (though he certainly deserves it) but because you want to bag on Red. I take a backseat to few people in respect of Michigan Hockey's past, present, and future (have you been kicked out of the Eveleth Hippodrome while looking at pictures of Wally Grant, Willard Ikola, and John Matchefts? I have. Drove up there just to see them). But you're trolling here.
Stu, you're taking the bait and you're in over your head. Frank Chuck has you here--Heyliger is the more successful coach at Michigan. And you're not making good counter arguments.
You're mischaracterizing my position.
It's ok to:
1. call a coach a legend for restoring a program to former glory.
2. say that the same coach underachieved because he should've won a few more National Championships with all the talent he recruited.
Those statements can both be valid and co-exist.
I find posters like Stu Dacco annoying. He seems to think in black and white and can't recognize much less acknowledge nuance.
But yes, you're right. We lost in the regional final in 2016. My mistake. That line should read "we failed to make the Frozen Four with a historically dominant offense and were doomed by a less-than-elite defense."
Ah, but Red hasn't underachieved over the course of his career. The last five years? Of course. But during his heyday? I've just given you some numbers that refute the idea pretty convincingly. (Oh, by the way, York is 5 years younger than Red, FWIW. Five years ago there's no such conversation about Red, either).
I think one could fairly argue that Red has been underachieving since the mid-2000s
This argument is stupid.
Your horrendous arguments have already been rebutted with ease, so I'm only responding here to point out that the words "acknowledge" and "recognize" are synonyms (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/acknowledge). Please note for future internet debates.
That's hard-hitting commentary from the author of this gem:
"Ur mom plays bingo after I get done peeing in her butt. She's a ghastly old bag but takes a big D like a champ!!!"
Oooh, the pure, undiluted ad hom! Rare.
The irony of you equating the meaning of two words from a sentence that criticizes you for missing nuance is amazing.
This is sad news, indeed. Red deserves a grand retirement party, not a shuffling out the door. But he's earned that shuffling over the last several years if he chooses against the grand retirement party. Unfortunately, I don't think Warde has the fortitude to open door #1 and throw an unwanted party. He has less a chance to open door #2 and shove Red through it...
This sucks.
I want to believe this, yes. But Warde's track record, already, is something less that that. He hasn't shown, to me, an ability to negotiate what he wants or to forcefully impact a situation in UMs favor.
I see nothing from Warde that couldn't be replaced by a machine learning algorithm that samples MGoBoard on a various issue and expresses Michigan's desire accordingly.
There have been instances where Warde could have more vocally advocated for Michigan in the public domain and he was largely silent. This is beyond being diplomatic, this is setting hedgemony. The SEC and OSU have mastered this. That is why I am negative on Warde.
If you want it, you have to go out and take it.
Can you give some examples of when Warde has shown incompetence? I think he handled the following well:
1) no Friday games
2) MBB plane crash then playing the B1G tournament at the scheduled time (and not postpone)
3) Not firing Beilein in Feb
What has he screwed up that we know for sure (not just speculation)?
What "track record"? Which negotiation did he fail?
Everybody points to:
A) Night games. We have no proof or indication that not holding a 2016 night game was a unilateral decision. Even if it were, it's ONE friggin' season. They had lights for 5 years prior to Manuel and held 3 night games. Anyone good at math? Help me out. Does that look like one night game every other year to you? And if so, doesn't that mean you will have seasons without a single night game? I don't have a calculator.
B) Notre Dame scheduling. We already had a full schedule for 2018 when the somebody decided we needed ND on the schedule as soon as f***ing possible. Do you think that was Warde's call on his own? Is there any other football-related person that might have had an opinion on that? They paid Arkansas to go away and jammed ND in as best they could given available dates. Seems to me he did his job and they got what they wanted.
C) Red Berenson. Nothing has happened yet - either way. There is nothing to be upset about because the situation is in progress.
Anything else? What else are we angry about?
I get the impression the "FIRE WARDE execute succession plan!" folks are probably the same people who were standing on street corners on gamedays in the early 2000s with "FIRE LLOYD" signs.
So you tell ND that if they want to play us, they come to the Big House. There really isn't much difference between ND and Arkansas these days anyways.
That would have meant no 2018 game at all. The 2019 game would have to be repaid some time after 2021, so ND might not have agreed.
I don't think Warde got to decide the price for playing ND was too high (play there then here vice here than there). The precedent has been set for demaning the ND play at Michigan when the seires resumes after 2021, though.
The ND issue is thus very petty.
They could have had ND play here in 2018 and we have to play them in the middle of our big ten schedule in 2019.
This is difficult. Nobody can deny that the program has decline in multiple ways; wins, recruiting of freshmen, recruiting of current players to not jump to the pros, on-the-ice (as evidenced by the decline in corsi over the past five seasons), off-the-ice issues, and the discontent among alumni and fans. Red is basically the Jimmy Devellano/Scotty Bowman of Michigan hockey. He did rebuild the program after dead Wolverine period of the 70's and 80's (wow, I am making a lof of red wings analogies here). Red does deserve to leave with grace for his service to the University of Michigan. I would not be a Michigan fan without him and so would many others.
However, we have been playing this game of one foot out the door for the past five seasons now. How do you treat this situation? I know I don't have the answers. If you kick Red out the door, you will risk angering numerous boosters and hockey alumni. This could make the Rich Rod situation look relatively calm. Then again, if Red does return, then numerous alumni, boosters, and fans may not be supporting the program. It is pretty clear attendance has fallen off this season. Yost is the not the same rocking venue as it once was (Yes, I know part of that is due to the renovations).
None, of us really know what is going on behind these closed doors. We have now four straight days of speculation posts. I don't envy Warde. This will be the biggest test of his career. When he had to replace Jim Calhoun, it was done under NCAA violations.
We will just have to wait and see. Let's all support Michigan hockey no matter what happens. We have a team full of players that need our support. They don't need to experience years of infighting and disrespect like our football team, prior to Harbaugh's hire.
and others on this site, is just incredible - usually with limited factual information. I doubt anyone could meet some of your performance standards. The sad conclusion is that some of the posters on this site will therefore soon be calling for Harbaugh's head because he hasn't yet won UM a National Championship. Just wow!
Red needs to retire. Or be fired. He cant stay another season without setting the program back even further. Ive been as big a fan of the hockey team as Ive ever been for the football team. I was going to GLIs and games at Yost while still in diapers. As a kid the GLI was as much a part of Christmas as Santa and the exchange of gifts for me and my family. My interest has waned over the last five years of increasing ineptitude and that kind of makes me feel a little sick.
Five years ago Mel would be my guy. Now at 58 years old Id rather pass for someone who will be here 15 years. I wouldnt be upset if Mel were hired. Just not my preference any longer.