RR and others on Feagin
This is probably beating a dead horse at this point, so I apologize in advance. However, annarbor.com had an interesting article about Feagin tonight.
http://www.annarbor.com/sports/rich-rodriguez-never-saw-signs-of-troubl…
One of the more interesting comments:
“Sometimes there’s mistakes made and if it’s an avoidable mistake then we have to look and say what did we miss?” Rodriguez said. “And sure, you do that. And that’s the first thing that happened. As soon as we found out this situation, you boot him off the team, then you call the coaches in and say, what did we miss? You call the mother up and say, hello, Mrs. Feagin, what did we miss?”Also, the Rivals guys hadn't heard anything either
Rivals.com recruiting analyst Jeremy Crabtree said no one expressed concerns over Feagin’s character when he signed out of American Heritage High as the last member of Michigan’s 2008 class, Rodriguez’s first with the Wolverines.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:23 AM ^
I don't know, call me crazy, but I'm not concerned that Rich Rodriguez is a bad judge of character. Nor am I convinced that he doesn't take character into consideration when offering scholarships. I've seen some rhetoric suggesting that folks are uneasy at the idea that "someone like Pacman Jones" could have been/could be a wolverine.
I understand the concern, no one wants thugs on or off the field at Michigan. But the reality is, many of these kids come from tough areas, and are used to a certain way of life. How else can you get them away from that life style if you don't take the chance to show them what more they can have: an education, meeting people from all walks of life, being part of something bigger than yourself.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:40 AM ^
I agree I do not have any concerns about RR and the kids he brings in.
People talk about Pacman and Chris Henry all the time, but neither of them had trouble with the law until the entered the NFL. Henry was suspended for one game and kicked out of one game for things that happened on the field during college.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:41 AM ^
This guy isn't a bad judge of character. It seems that the players on the team are really good guys, sadly when you have a team of 85 guys that are bound to be a couple that have issues, that is true anywhere.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:15 AM ^
Another article filled with opinion and speculation from the Mitch Albom-wanna-be Rosenberg.
The headline is probably the most unfair thing:
http://freep.com/article/20090811/COL22/908110360/Win-at-all-costs-a-po…
August 11th, 2009 at 7:54 AM ^
traditional print media is going out of business. They write articles in a style and tone that they believe will get attention, as opposed to being journalists and reporting facts from both sides to let the reader decide.
If you look at AnnArbor.com (now a web-only) offering they have this article which gives facts and lets the reader draw their own conclusion.
http://www.annarbor.com/sports/rich-rodriguez-never-saw-signs-of-troubl…
August 11th, 2009 at 3:24 AM ^
Feagin did something stupid. Incredibly stupid, granted. College kids do stupid things. The condemnation of a coach for the immature actions of a player is, in my opinion, silly. Especially if the happenings are sporadic. Rodriguez has zero history of this stuff being an issue.
For the most part, I'm not getting the sense that the media is spinning this against RR. I feel like the RichRod hating is starting to subside as the season approaches
August 11th, 2009 at 6:04 AM ^
Seen a coach come into a situation where so many in the hometown media have seemed to be dead set against him from the start. It all seemed to me to begin even before all the WVU bullshit hit the fan. I kept asking myself, "What on Earth are they so pissed off about?"
I have my doubts, some of them about Rodriguez after last year (which he can easily dispel this year and I'm sure he'll be releived to read that)--but most of my doubts stem from the badgering and pounding he has taken from the media, the seeming Jekyll/Hyde aura surrounding UM athletics/academics, and just how seriously people take this "Michigan Man" thing and would welcome an outsider and give him a legitimate chance to succeed. Honestly, it's as if these people expected the Clouds of Heaven to open and some demi-god to ride down on a rainbow and land in the HC seat at Schembechler Hall.
But MICHIGAN having to go out and actually hire seomeone? Take a coach from another school (like EVERY MOTHERFUCKER DOES)? I wonder what kind of fairy tale world smarmy bitchezz like Albom and Rosenberg live in?
Now I understand the lack of respect after last season's performance, but to me Rosenberg's take on the Feagin Situation pretty much sums up the attitude toward Rodriguez: The fucker is dirty, UM should have waited for those clouds to part, and it is time to take this "high and mighty" elitist crowd down.
August 11th, 2009 at 6:14 AM ^
his first article on RR was "Michigan hired a GREAT COACH!!!! not just a good coach!!!"
http://www.freep.com/article/20071216/SPORTS06/71216048/1054/SPORTS06/M…
and now he is just another ass-hat in the media jumping to conclusions, jumping on the bandwagon......
Whatever gets "clicks" (used to be sell papers) and sells boosk, I guess...
August 11th, 2009 at 9:34 AM ^
1) Juvenile records are generally not available, so if the HS coach doesn't know, all you basically have is the kid's interview and honesty of the parents to go by.
2) This was not a drug deal, because no drugs were produced. This is a con done by a guy with an unknown history of drug dealing. As soon as the facts came clear, he was dismissed.
3) They are attacking RR the same week MSU brings back a convicted felon into the fold. This player is likely to see significant minutes.
4) The character assassination/speculation is justified by a a writer who seeks readership the same way he accuses a coach of wanting to win at all coast, except you never see them apologize for the hatchet job when it proves false.
5) The use of that ominous ending "In time, we'll find out if that's true." is the literary equivalent of wrapping up a story by saying "suddenly, everyone was run over by a big truck - the end".
grrrr!
August 11th, 2009 at 9:48 AM ^
This might be splitting hairs, but when someone makes a deal that will exchange money for drugs, I'd call that a drug deal. True, the exchange might not have taken place - but it was still a deal.
Let's not hide behind "He wasn't a drug dealer because he never gave the guy drugs!" If that helps you sleep better at night, tell yourself what you want, but it's a pretty flimsy argument.
August 11th, 2009 at 9:57 AM ^
the drugs don't actually have to change hands for it to be considered a drug deal. I am not familiar enough with the events that took place however, but there could be a scenario where drugs were never intended to change hands, in which case it would be a con as opposed to a drug deal. Perhaps that is what the poster means? idk though.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:37 AM ^
drug deal. They pretty much never end well.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:01 PM ^
Distribution is a felony
Intent to distribute a misdemeanor, IIRC
Might depend on how good your lawyer is, though, and who is prosecuting. Can't say I know the details for sure but there is definitely a significant legal difference between actually possessing an illicit substance and distributing said substance, and making arrangements to do so without actually doing it
edit: For that matter, I can't imagine intent to distribute being legally meaningful if one does not possess an illegal substance which can be distributed
edit2: Looked it up. Possession with intent to distribute is a felony. But possession is required for this to be illegal, it seems
August 11th, 2009 at 9:41 AM ^
People in this thread have said "Pacman Jones and Chris Henry didn't get into trouble until they got to the NFL."
The halfway-informed people who question Rodriguez's judgment of character aren't that concerned about Jones and Henry - we're concerned about Rodriguez bringing in people like Jason Gwaltney, Noel Devine, and Pat Lazear. Oh, you didn't know about them because they're not NFL stars? Okay, well, perhaps you should do a bit more research.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:02 AM ^
I, most times, can get past your angry snipits but in this case, instead of sounding like an ass why not just enlighten everyone as to what it is you're talking about.
If you are worried, fine, tell everyone why it is you are worried. Also, since you have already obviously done your research, tell us what these guys did before they went to WVU. This is how debates usually go, not simply with one side saying "I don't agree....do your research."
Not that I think you're an ass, I'm just sayin'.
Edit* To add my two cents to the debate I will say I am trying to judge RR on his performance as the UM head coach. Thus far he has recruited at least one person who was of questionable character. When the said individual showed that he has not been able to "chnage his stripes" he was IMMEDIATELY dismissed from the team. In my books that says RR is doing a damn fine job.
I don't have a problem with him giving a kid a chance regardless of his past. I had a shady past and needed people to take a chance on me and I hope I didn't disappoint any of them. I would have a problem if RR didn't handle this the way he did, but as far as I am concerned he has done exactly what a good coach should. Would it be different if it was a star player....we'll have to wait and see, but to this point I have faith in his judgement and the way he handles situations like this. I will continue to have faith until he proves me wrong.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:24 AM ^
Devine: got in a fight with a high school teammate, fathered two kids out of wedlock by the time he graduated high school
Gwaltney: among other things, was arrested for drunk driving
Lazear: robbed a fast food restaurant and WVU was the only school that kept pursuing him
August 11th, 2009 at 10:36 AM ^
I will only judge RR on what takes place at UM but looking at this I would say that I would give Devine a chance hands down. I was a father before I left High School and got into multiple fights with teammates and others (boys will be boys).
Gwaltney, if it was proven to be an isolated incident is fine by me as well. If it happened again, off the team, plain and simple. (I should clarify that I think RR giving him a second chance and recruiting him is fine by me, not drinking and driving).
Lazear: This would be the only one that would cause me some concern in that I am not aware of all the facts i.e.:
1) was it an armed robbery
2) was he acting alone or in a group
3) was anyone hurt in the incident
4)did he serve his time
If he was by himself, had a gun and shot someone it would be a deal breaker. If he was with a few guys you could make the arguement that he got caught up in a bad situation and got in some trouble. If he serve his time (community service or jail time...whatever) than I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and say, if I can change, anyone can change.
I don't think a coach giving a young man a second chance is a bad thing. If the guy continues on the wrong path you get rid of him, otherwise, you just helped a kid out of a very bad situation.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:17 AM ^
on a Buckeye forum of all things, with some long articles from the Washington Post about the incident. I guess since Lazear was from Maryland, the WaPo was interested.
Lazear was involved with four other kids, one of whom worked inside the Smoothie King, so it was an inside job. Lazear drove the getaway car. No one was injured. A gun was shown inside the store, apparently to give the illusion that it was a "real" armed robbery, although the employee and the robber were both in on it. The gun was described variously as a "toy" or "inoperable." Legally speaking, the law enforcement people don't care all that much about whether it was a toy or not, you show what appears to be a gun and you're in deep shit. I'm not sure whether Lazear did any time; I'd have to re-read things. Apparently Lazear's dad was one of the assistant coaches on the HS team at the time. A total of $430 was grabbed. Lazear had apparently a prior misdemeanor conviction for some credit card-related theft or misuse. The bizarre thing is that Lazear lived in a fairly well-to-do district, so it's not a case of some poor kid making a grab for some cash that he wouldn't have had access to otherwise (not that it's a valid excuse). Some commenters on the forum describe Lazear as a polite, decent kid, others describe him as an overindulged arrogant jock who never expressed any contrition over his crime.
In one of the WaPo articles at the time of his signing with WVU, RR is quoted as saying that he and Bill Stewart spent extensive time researching Lazear's background and record and determined that he was worthy of a scholarship offer. You can agree with that decision or not, but I find it comical that many current WVU fans are now dismissing RR as having run a wayward program while he was there, and act as though Stewart is running a clean ship now. Last I checked, Lazear is still on the team, so either Stewart is covering up ongoing criminal activities by Lazear, or Lazear has kept his nose clean.
I keep coming across mentions of Henry and Jones, and some assert that they did not get into trouble at WVU, that their transgressions started after they left. Does anybody know the truth?
As for me, I would have passed on Lazear.
FWIW, the Buckeye forum is at:
http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/2007-football-recruiting/23131-07-md…
August 11th, 2009 at 12:06 PM ^
Hey, what a concept -- injecting some actual facts into the discussion! But, facts aren't necessary to our ability to pronounce judgment, are they? I see from today's column that Mike Rosenberg doesn't think so. Love the ominous "time will tell" to close the column (keep hearing those "Law and Order" chimes when I read that) -- hey, the guy's only been coaching for years, so there's no track record to evaluate him by, is there?
August 11th, 2009 at 11:46 AM ^
"I will only judge RR on what takes place at UM."
Okay, so he took on some troubled cases at WVU and the same pattern has already started to devlop at Michigan...but you're choosing to ignore what happened at WVU? Okay...
"Boys will be boys"
...but that doesn't mean they deserve a scholarship from the University of Michigan.
Someone else responded about the Lazear case. If you're a convicted criminal, I don't want you on my football team.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:45 PM ^
one guy that had issues even his HS coach wasn't aware of is a pattern.
"...but that doesn't mean they deserve a scholarship from the University of Michigan."
This comment shocks me a bit to be honest. If we are all to be judged on our past with the notion that people can't change and therefore don't deserve a second chance I think the world is in trouble. Why don't you ask our 2010 commit Jones how he feels about this sentiment?
I don't know how things work in the USA but in Canada there is something we call the "Young Offenders Act" which essentially means that people under 18 years of age have their records sealed to the public. Also, once they turn 18 they can have that record erased. This is based on the premise that people under 18 often make mistakes that would essentially ruin their lives (if people like you were in control) when they don't really have the capacity to fully understand what the consequences of their actions were. This, in essence, is giving them their second chance. If they continue to screw up they will find their way to jail soon enough, but there are many who become very successful and productive members of society.
To close I will simply say that I think everyone deserves second chances and I would wager that even you, magnus, have been given one or two in your life. I don't have a problem with RR doing this, especially when he has shown that when the person doesn't change, he acts swiftly and reasonably.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:52 PM ^
I'm not saying people don't deserve second chances. I'm saying those second chances don't have to come from places like the University of Michigan and WVU. U of M is one of the top public universities in the country - and in the world, according to one study I read not too long ago - and I don't want its reputation to be sullied by people like Feagin, Pat Lazear, etc.
I realize Michigan has had questionable characters in the past, but that doesn't mean I should think, "Oh, Carson Butler was a thug, so I don't really care who we recruit."
August 11th, 2009 at 2:42 PM ^
elitist attitude that has many of the country's other fan bases hating on UM all the time. I'll let you in on something magnus, none of the students at UM are perfect. I bet lots smoke a little dope, are drunk and disorderly in public and have probably even been in a little trouble before they went to UofM. You know how I know this.....because they are 18-22 year old kids!
I am saying kids do deserve a second chance at UM or Oxford university....anywhere, everyone does. By saying they don't deserve one at UM is essentially saying they don't deserve one. That's like saying a guy who got in a fight deserves a second chance but thief doesn't. Or maybe even more like we will give this criminal a second chance but he has to live here, in a hotbed for crime and not associate with us good law abiding folk. How are we giving him a second chance exactly?
The bottom line is every program makes mistakes like this (some more than others). Many programs will act as RR did but some may simply try to sweep these things under the rug. I am confident that these issues will continue to be handled in the manner which the Feagin situation was which is perfectly fine IME.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:04 PM ^
None of the students at UM are perfect? Holy shit. You just blew up my whole argument, because I was saying that ALL University of Michigan students are saints.
Never mind then.
August 13th, 2009 at 9:41 AM ^
Buddy, no offense but you should really try to be more clear about what it is you are trying to say. The impression I ( and many more people I suspect) got from your post is that UM shouldn't give anyone that does not have a crystal clear record a chance....How have I misinterpretted that? You say "sure these kids deserve a second chance, just not from UM." I am saying that is BS. If you deserve a second chance you deserve a second chance. To try and put stipulations on that is not giving them a second chance at all.
Honestly, I am an avid reader of this blog and have seen many of your posts. From them I am getting the impression that you know a lot about football.......I can't see much else.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:07 AM ^
Oi...
a) You said that not all UM students are perfect. That's obvious. I never claimed that was true. But Joe Schmoe in the School of LS&A does not represent the university in the same way that, for example, Kevin Grady or Marlin Jackson does. If Joe Schmoe is one of 40,000 students and gets in trouble for drunk driving, he serves his time and nobody really cares. Maybe he stays in school, maybe he doesn't. If Kevin Grady or Marlin Jackson does something criminal, the perception of the school - and our football program - is affected in a much bigger way. If you don't think Justin Feagin has caused more embarrassment to our school/program than my old roommate who sold weed, then I think you are badly mistaken.
b) Thanks for the attack on my character and intelligence. Stay classy.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:41 PM ^
Devine and Gwaltney: big deal, not perfect, but you don't toss a player into the bin for those type of things, you make it very clear that it will not be tolerated and proceed.
Lazear: read about the incident and the background before you post, like find the Washing Post articles that give some details before you just spout off. There were tons of mitigating circumstances and in the end, the general public opinion was that RR had checked into it thoroughly and was a good guy for giving the kid a second chance. Oh, and let's look at the result, the kid did NOT turn out to have issues and so thus far it looks like it was a good decision.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:48 PM ^
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR20070…
Okay, here are some details:
-Sentenced to 3 years of probation
-Sentenced to 30 days of house arrest
-Sentenced to 150 hours of community service
-Served 10 days in jail
That was all before he finished high school. I don't care if Rich Rodriguez talked to people and determined it wouldn't be an issue - if you plead guilty to "conspiracy to commit robbery" then you don't deserve a Division I scholarship and a free college education.
August 11th, 2009 at 8:33 PM ^
and the result so far? You omitted that...
Let's see, Lazeus is in his third year, no problems at all and on the honor roll.
I trust that RR looked into the incident, the player and everything/everyone else involved in the matter and it looks to me like he made the right call.
So you put forth two players that had minor infractions, at best, and one where the player made a large mistake and RR reviewed it and made what looks to me like a sound decision in giving him a shot. If that is the best you can come up with, you really aren't making a very solid case. In fact, it only serves to bolster my opinion that he runs a very tight ship.
Be my guest to join in with the mmm in making snap judgements and perpetuating the anti-Rodriguez sentiment based on biased, subjective reporting that ignores any evidence that does not support the theory that RR is of low moral character. Just try to get better examples than that, especially when it would seem I could find hundreds of examples of kids that he recruited, coached into great players and respectable young men who have had nothing but praise for him.
Then, when you can find me another D-1 coach who has recruited that many players without having any disciplinary issues, you can assert with some accuracy that there are issues with RR's character or judgement of character.
Oh yeah, Alabama, OSU and several other schools continued to pursue him following his sentencing and jail time, not just WVU. Again, you sculpt the facts toward supporting your theory because otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:08 PM ^
I don't care if Lazear has been a good student afterward. That's irrelevant to the argument. I don't want ex-convincts on my team, period. That's all I'm saying.
Also, Devine was arrested for a fight at a night club at WVU. So he didn't leave all of his troubles in the past.
Also, an article I read said that WVU was the only school that kept pursuing Lazear after his legal issues. So that's not "sculpting the facts" - that's repeating what I read. If it's not true, so be it, but that's not my fault.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:44 PM ^
I read in two other articles that OSU and Alabama still pursued him, not sure what is right, so we'll leave it at that.
Ok, so Devine got in a fight. Carson Butler + many, many other's under Carr's watch. I loved Carr as a coach, but you have to realize that out of 85 kids every year, it is impossible not to have some discipline issues.
You should be looking at RR's player 'rap sheet' vs. Carr's over the same time period and giving him credit for coming in substantially below Carr's incident rate, especially when everyone piling on RR is extolling the virtues of Carr's regime and their judgement of recruit/player character. Carr kept a LOT of those players that were involved in those issues on the roster. Here RR cut him summarily. That is good, not bad.
I want players that are respectable, players that won't reflect poorly on the program while playing at Michigan. I trust RR to find kids that will do that and deal with the ones that turn out not to. that is all you can ask, otherwise you are holding him to an impossible ideal.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:16 AM ^
Keep in mind that I'm not holding Carr up as some standard of virtue. In this entire discussion, I don't believe I have mentioned Carr until right now (although I can't remember off the top of my head, since this discussion started a couple days ago and I had pretty much forgotten about it until this morning).
August 13th, 2009 at 9:44 AM ^
"do your research" you meant pick any one source and consider it gospel........Sounds like you are the one that needs to learn HOW to research.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:13 AM ^
Seriously?
I didn't know I was writing a research project on Pat Lazear. If I were, perhaps I would have called him up and asked him how many schools kept recruiting him. As it was, I read a newspaper article and regurgitated that information.
But you're right. I guess I should have found at least three sources and cited them in proper MLA format for you.
Since WVU wasn't the only school that kept recruiting him, I guess the whole crux of my argument has been ruined. Because, you know, if Alabama does it, then why shouldn't Michigan?
August 11th, 2009 at 5:26 PM ^
Are you from Little House On The Prairie? Are you James Dobson? I'm not advocating fornication, but I dare you to start an NCAA dynasty with 22 virgins.
Edit: given the length of this particular digression I should point out that this is aimed at Magnus.
August 11th, 2009 at 8:31 PM ^
certainly do...
August 11th, 2009 at 8:35 PM ^
But God was looking so I lied.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:09 PM ^
If you have two kids before you graduate high school, there's a pretty good chance that you're not very smart.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:36 PM ^
Wedlock here is irrelevant to the case though; just plain having two kids before getting your education in order (and I'm thinkin post high school here) is generally pretty stupid.
August 11th, 2009 at 9:57 AM ^
about RR bringing in known low character players but why don't you address the Feagin situation since you were so critical of RR.
It has now come out that neither RR nor Feagin's high school coach were aware of the arrests or the drug dealing. Do you think they're lying? Do you still think this is RR's fault for not properly investigating?
August 11th, 2009 at 11:49 AM ^
I have no idea if they're lying or not. But there would have to be people who knew that Feagin was arrested, and therefore, I don't think the background check was thorough enough. Rodriguez himself said he and his coaches were asking themselves, "Where did we go wrong?" The answer to that question is where you'll find the answers to yours.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:04 PM ^
If Feagin's own high school coach - a man who dealt with him for four years - didn't know about his criminal past, how can you realistically expect RR to have known? Do you want him to hire a PI to look into the background of every one of the 100+ kids he recruits each year?
Sometimes this stuff slips through the cracks. Coaches have to recruit a large number of players in a limited amount of time, and have to make a lot of educated guesses about whether or not a kid will be a good fit - on the field, academically and character-wise. They end up taking more chances on kids than most of us are willing to admit. Usually, it ends up working out. This time it did not.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:07 PM ^
If I'm not mistaken, Feagin was a "late-round flier," meaning he was a last second addition to the recruiting class because RR couldn't snatch another quarterback. Perhaps RR and his staff didn't have time to fully research Feagin?
August 11th, 2009 at 3:17 PM ^
Not true. According to Feagin's high school coach, Willie Bueno, Rich Rod & Rod Smith were recruiting Feagin while they were still at WVU. Here is the quote from the Rosenberg Freep article:
"Rodriguez and his quarterbacks coach, Rod Smith, originally wanted Feagin to join them at West Virginia. Willie Bueno, Feagin's high school coach, said Monday that Rodriguez and Smith had offered Feagin a scholarship to West Virginia. Bueno said the Mountaineers' staff recruited Feagin for several months."
http://www.freep.com/article/20090811/COL22/908110360/1048/SPORTS/Hey-W…
August 12th, 2009 at 2:06 AM ^
Rodriguez took some chances on some kids. Sometimes he knew what he was getting (Devine, Lazear), sometimes he didn't (Feagin). Most of the time, these guys behaved under his tutelage (Jones, Henry, Devine, Gwaltney, Lazear) and some even excelled to become better men than when they started (Lazear). Rodriguez appears to have whiffed on one (Feagin).
Rodriguez has a record of winning, so I trust his ability to win games at Michigan. He also has a pretty good record of judging recruits and keeping his players in line, so I trust his judge of character and ability to discipline. Until I see more, In Rod I trust.
Oh, and teenagers like to have sex. Who knew?