Recruiting - Pahokee vs Texas
Interesting point Butch Davis makes about Pahokee vs Texas recruiting on ESPN:
Davis said the facilities that the player has available to him in high school can lay a trap for a recruiter.
"You may be buying the finished product," Davis said. "There's a little bit of that in Texas. Those schools have got more money than God. They have a strength coach, 15 high school coaches. The players have been in the same program since sixth or seventh grade. You get them and four years later they are the exact same player.
"You go to Pahokee, Fla., where a kid eats once a day, his parents may not be around," Davis said. "You get him in a weightlifting program. Two years later, he's three times better than the kid from Texas."
February 1st, 2009 at 9:29 AM ^
...since RR and co. are clearly betting on that.
February 1st, 2009 at 9:56 AM ^
Long time reader, first time poster!
just wondering, could anyone think of some examples to perhaps back up what Butch is saying here? thanks.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:25 AM ^
It sounds pretty apocryphal to me. No way you can conclusively say it's right or wrong. But that area of Florida turns out a disproportionate amount of NFL talent.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:17 AM ^
i agree with butch. i also agree (before the argument is had) that butch is a stupendous name.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:23 AM ^
Butch is also the kind of women that I do not go for....
February 1st, 2009 at 10:36 AM ^
If in Texas you are getting guys that already have their fundamentals down and have been coached to the extreme then the only thing he has left in college is to get a little stronger. In Pahokee you get guys that are just fantastic athletes because of all that rabbit chasin' and it just happens that they've played football for a few years. Maybe I just haven't really looked but are there any lineman that come out of Pahokee?
February 1st, 2009 at 10:52 AM ^
There's a natural level of talent and from there what is gained is based on work. Kids from Pahokee have a higher ceiling than a lot of the kids from Texas. Makes sense to me.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:11 AM ^
Kids from Pahokee also seem to have a higher work ethic. It seems as though they appreciate the chance more than a kid from Texas... I don't think Santonio Holmes ever bitched about how cold Columbus was, for example.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:20 AM ^
Hard to be cold when you have 4 ladies with you at all times.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:24 AM ^
I don't know man, Tate is cold and covered with women!
February 1st, 2009 at 11:12 AM ^
It makes some logical sense, but there's obviously no way to establish it as "true".
February 1st, 2009 at 11:24 AM ^
between Beaver and Forcier? That Forcier had done all personal trainer polishing and was therefore already closer to his ceiling, but Beaver was raw and could be molded in anything.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:31 AM ^
Beaver was also regarded as having the higher ceiling. I hate to play this card, but it really seems like people were much more excited about the white guy for no good reason.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:39 AM ^
Except for the fact that Michigan desperately needs a functional quarterback ASAP and Forcier is widely regarded to be the more polished quarterback right now. You know, that part.
And a fanbase will always be more excited about recruits who are likely to play immediately than those who may need time to develop.
I don't think people's excitement for Tate over Beaver has anything to do with black/white -- not in the least.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:28 AM ^
...have been saying this for years. Kids come out of the powerful high school baseball programs throwing low to mid-90s, and after a few years in the minors their velocity actually goes down...
As a life-long Cleveland Browns fan, however, I take anything Butch Davis says with more just a proverbial grain of salt...
February 1st, 2009 at 11:43 AM ^
Between Pahokee and Belle Glade, two small towns 11 miles apart with nothing else going for them than a sugar plantation that is soon to be closed, they have, according to USA Today, "sent over fifty players to professional football."
Anquain Boldin from Pahokee will be playing against Santonio Holmes from Belle Glade in the Super Bowl today.
Here is an article about their rivalry game, the "Muck Bowl;" it's sorta fluffy but gives you a decent feel for the towns and their rivalry for such a small article.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/lopresti/2009-01-26-muck-bowl_…
On a side note, I lived in the Palm Beach area and have been through both towns a few times. The towns are truly cesspools. I am afraid to stop and eat in either town due to sanitation concerns.
The kids learn early that sports is a way to make it out of town, and they seem to have a desperation to take advantage of it that most kids don't. Thus the well-deserved reputation for work ethic.
I hope RR gets lots of kids from both Belle Glade and Pahokee.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:48 AM ^
I would venture to speculate that genetics is not the only factor as suggested in the article. Culture, work habits also play a role here.
http://rivals100.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=259347
The other factor that I have heard in coaching circles (I'm not a coach my son is) is that some athleltes "peak" in highschool and early in their freshman year and that talent will plateau if you will leaving little room for improvement. While other players are average for their first several years coming out of highschool and then start to peak physically and mentally (football wise) during junior or senior years. hence the ubiquitous "sleeper", "huge upside", and great potential type players.
Three examples I believe are Shazor, Perry and Manningham peaked early great talents and I love those guys as Michgan Players, but their best days are behind them even considering injuries. The opposite may be some recent examples are Breaston and Piere Woods.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:19 PM ^
How can you suggest this to be the case? Granted, his junior season was not what everyone expected (keep in mind a broken Henne did not help), but his Capital One performance was great. He has time yet to prove himself in the NFL. I would not say he peaked early.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:01 PM ^
Three examples I believe are Shazor, Perry and Manningham peaked early great talents and I love those guys as Michgan Players, but their best days are behind them even considering injuries.
Shazor - apart from his hit against Purdue this out of this world talent never really reached his potential - early or otherwise. Obviously dealing with some mental/emotional issues, but he is not an example of someone peaking too early. Started as a special teamer (and a pretty good) - if I recall did not move into the starting role until Jr. year. Got playing time as soph.
Manninham - again he improved quite well over the course of his college career. While his great talent was on display his freshman year. The "new math" really burst out against ND his soph year. Jr. year was tough because Henne was hurt most of the year and he had to play with Mallett most of the time. Still a great talent who can succeed in the NFL.
Perry - the classic example of a player imrproving each and every year. Outstanding senior year put him in first round. Until that point had some potential, but really took a huge leap his senior year - he seemed to just get it. Hard to say whether he could have been an effective NFL player given his injuries (Cinci Bengal big ten running back hating god strikes again (Kijana Carter is the other one I can think of).
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:39 PM ^
As a junior, Manningham caught 72 passes for 1,174 yards and 12 TDs. That was despite being suspended for a game and that he played only about half the year with a healthy Henne.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:14 PM ^
seem to have some holes in them do you have any?
February 1st, 2009 at 12:37 PM ^
Some people really let the air/fun out of this board with their nit-picking. It's not the way I'd prefer it, but maybe this is what the community wants. As much as it sounds like it, I'm not attacking you J. It was an accurate post.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:22 AM ^
To be fair, if someone makes a point, and uses examples that do the exact opposite of backing up that point, I don't think pointing it out is "nit-picking".
On these boards, people have discussions and debates - you do that by getting evidence that supports your case and presenting that evidence. If your case has no evidence, you probably don't have a point.
I understand that many want to use the "it's just my opinion, you can't attack it", defense - but opinions can be wrong.
Bluesouth - this isn't aimed at you, please understand that.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:18 PM ^
I wold also guess that many players from high school football factories in Texas who peak early do so because they recieved chemical enhancement in high school. It is a lot tougher to get past the "piss man" in college than it is in high school. Especially when it is probably a lot easier to bribe the "piss man" in Texas than it is in colleges.
I would guess that to get "help" in college, you would have to, nod nod wink wink, have someone like an ex-WWE wrestler as a father who has a pipeline to the best and most untracable enhancements.
At any rate, the players who "made it out" serve as role models for kids in Belle Glade and Pahokee who don't want to live there dependent upon the sugar plantation the rest of their lives.
I am wondering what will happen to the town when the sugar plantation jobs dry up. IIRC, there is a Lockheed factory within twenty miles, but there really isn't much happening out there for the citizens of either town.
Both programs could easily go down the shitter if over half of the residents are forced to move out of town.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:32 PM ^
Cream will always rise to the top. Re: chemical enhancements no doubt there is a lot of juicing going on at all levels of sport because the stakes are so high. I'm not so naieve to think that even some of Michigans' players have sought out the chemical advantage, but tOSU seems to have a clear advantage in this area. Gholston was a what 220 when he got to OSU asa freshman by his RS junior year he was like this well defined cut-up monster.
Back to the point you seemed to allude to Socio economic disadvantage seems to be a real big motivator for these young men. The opportunies that a Michigan education (read experience) will go a long way to enhance these young guy's lives in the long run even boynd a potential NFL career.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:31 PM ^
steriods are at every level. one of my good friends in high school played d1 football (SE LA) and he said nearly everyone was juicing. i grew up in ga, so high school fball is a big deal and a lot of kids will do anything to make it to the next level.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:37 PM ^
using butch davis' logic, the texas players would be more immediately ready to contribute since they are bulked up and fundamentally sound. getting a good mix of both types of players sounds like a good way to go imho.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:25 PM ^
meant for this comment to be in general. i live in dallas and the money that high school football generates is insane. its equivalent to the money colleges make on football on a smaller scale though. football provides revenue for the school, therefore the school invests alot of money into football. basically every school including alot of small schools have their own indoor training facility, full coaching staffs and top notch S&C programs like butch mentioned. head coaches get paid over 100k just to coach football. it makes sense that you could find guys from less privileged backgrounds that probably have more upside, but those same reasons for texas kids topping out is also what makes texas football the best.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:41 PM ^
Steroids are, indeed, at every level, but it is a lot easier to get caught as you go from HS to NCAA to NFL. I am fully convinced, for example, that it is not a coincidence that Nebraska's physical dominance and their tradition of 180-lb walkons becoming 320 lb linemen as seniors suddenly went down the crapper at approximately the same time as the NCAA started testing. Iowa slid at approximately the same time.
UM, on the other hand, has seven players from the post-testing era in the Super Bowl today.
I think the "juice" of the new millenium is HGH, anyway. Whoever gets the least-detectable steroids or HGH wins.
It would be great to see a study of the average lifespans of players from all programs to see who has been doing this stuff for a long time. We know that, as a rule, users die earlier than non-users.
There may be predictable diseases, such as testicular cancer, that could be monitored and counted on a per capita basis.
I guess we'll never truly know, but it sure is fun to guess.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:57 PM ^
Theres been over 50 players from muck city into the NFL.
Today, theres two players from muck city in the suuper bowl
Santonio Holmes and Anquan Boldin.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:02 PM ^
Texas does the vast majority of its recruiting in the state of Texas, so their roster is made up mostly of those "finished products." I think Vince Young, Colt McCoy, Roy Williams, Derrick Johnson, etc. all vastly improved from the time they were freshmen.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:36 PM ^
I feel like I'm doing chitown's job right now, but these are the retorts I hate the most. No one said that no one from Texas will improve in college. It was an argument that since Pahokee kids are often more raw when they come to college compared to Texas players, they have more room for improvement than a kid who has had access to top of the line equipment and coaching.
If I said "Michigan grads get better jobs on average than Western Michigan grads" you can't prove my wrong by saying "Dave Dombrowski."
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:24 PM ^
was that Texas is a tremendously successful program that gets most of its players from instate. If all of those players were "finished products" like Davis said, then wouldn't Texas have a decent but not great team?
As far as my examples, I was pointing out that guys like VY, McCoy, etc. are not "finished products" but pretty raw because they improve greatly over the course of their careers.
If you want me to go down the list of all the great Texas players from instate, I could do that, I just think everyone gets the point and doesn't need to read that.
Your last analogy doesn't work because it's generally accepted that UM is a superior school to WMU whereas Florida and Texas are generally equal in terms of producing great football talent.
The bottom line is that 17 and 18 year old players are almost never "finished products." If you take an 18 year old freshman from a poor area and a school with very little in terms of S&C and an 18 year old freshman from a big time HS program with a top line S&C program, both will still improve greatly because they both have a lot of room to grow. The one with less may grow a little bit more, but not enough to put the other one to shame.