Patterson's interception was caused by Charbonnet tripping
First, apologies if this has been noted in one of the many posts of the last two days. Maybe everyone knows this and is talking about it. I stay far away from this board after a loss.
But looking at the highlights, the interception is caused by Charbonnet tripping on the OL's leg. I'm not blaming Charbonnet, I think this is just unlucky. But I know there are a lot of people who need to assign blame because it makes them feel better after a loss. Especially the internet tough guys. I think this is an error in judgement, but I understand you will still do it because you feel it makes the pain go away (understanding, I hope, that trying to hurt someone else is the lowest common denominator for dealing with emotional loss).
Is Patterson supposed to check before throwing here? Maybe he is. He's looking away to draw the defenders, which is what you do on a screen, then comes back and throws. He leads Charbonnet as he's supposed to, and the pass would have been right on based on where the RB was when he lets it go. But in that split second Charbonnet trips, and it allows just the perfect window for the DB to squeeze between he and Ruiz to pick it off. Great play by the defender, but this should have been a TFL or incomplete. If Ruiz or Onwenu could have actually blocked that guy, this is a great play call: the safeties are bailing deep and there would have been a blocker out front.
And remember this play should have been 1st down at the PSU 18 yard line, after the incredible Collins catch that never ever ever is called offensive PI in competitive football. Right? Like when their TE pushed off on Hudson for a TD, in a much more obvious manner, and he wasn't even being groped?
October 21st, 2019 at 12:17 PM ^
Michigan’s luck in a nutshell for the 15+ years:
Hit a deep pass to set up and 1st and 10 in the red zone only to get called for a bullshit penalty.
Then throw an INT on the next play which leads to the opponent scoring a TD.
Unreal.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:02 PM ^
I still don't understand how the DB grabbing you by the chest plate is somehow offensive PI on you. Blind as moles, rich as crooks, or intelligent as Sparty--take your pick, but it was a bad day for officiating.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:45 PM ^
Part of me honestly feels like the officials were making a somewhat conscious decision to how they were going to call the game going into it, besides just usual homecooking bias. It really wasn't until Harbaugh blasted them the second time that UM got any calls in their favor.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:44 PM ^
21 points off of “officials related turnovers “
October 21st, 2019 at 4:33 PM ^
It was a bad day but blaming the refs is Penn states thing not mine. We were the better team just not on the scoreboard which ultimately is all that counts.
October 21st, 2019 at 7:44 PM ^
October 21st, 2019 at 12:17 PM ^
He shouldn't have thrown it into that crowd
October 21st, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
It wasn't really a crowd. It was one guy with two blockers in the area. I don't know exactly what's supposed to happen but Ruiz seemed to not be running at #5 at all. If the pass is supposed to be further to Shea's right (where the blockers were) and the only reason Charbonnet wasn't there was because he tripped, then the pass was not in the correct place (as the OP states) and Shea should realize that something is amiss.
In sum, I don't know who is most at fault.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:38 PM ^
Mustipher nearly picked it before Castro-Fields did.
EDIT: Mustipher nearly deflected it before Castro-Fields picked it off.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:48 PM ^
This was my thought as well. Even if Charbonnet is upright waiting for the ball he’s not going anywhere. That play was busted from the start. He should have thrown it away like he did later in the game. It’s all easy to say in hind sight though. Trying to move quickly and making snap decisions, shit happens sometimes.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^
The OP acknowledges this. Still wouldn’t have been a INT
October 22nd, 2019 at 2:59 AM ^
I disagree. If Charbonnet is upright, with a competent center on that play you're getting a MASSIVE gain. Instead Ruiz runs right past a defender who ends up as the beneficiary. If I'm assigning blame, it's:
#1: Ruiz
#2: Patterson
#3: Charbonnet
October 21st, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
I get that's a first reaction. But screen passes always look like this. Well, not exactly like this with a closing defender who's clearly read this play. But they're always a mass of bodies that don't look clean until the RB has the ball and is running free.
But you may be right and the QB is supposed to read that and turf it.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:08 PM ^
He does have a second read here to Tarik Black if he thinks this is dead. I don't know how live this read is, but it's pretty much free yards if PSU overcommits to the screen here. For what it's worth - they really don't overcommit - you'll notice what I think is a Safety stays in line with Black. It's possible Black doesn't get the ball even if he's fully uncovered, but he appears to be looking potentially for it so I would not be shocked if that player isn't the primary post-snap read on this play.
I think the actual play here though is to simply place this ball better. This is a screen set up to go farther outside (you can tell by where the blockers are aligned). This ball wants to be in a place where the reception point is actually protected by the blockers out front. In this case, with Charbonnet getting tripped up it's probably an incompletion anyways, but without someone getting a free run at the ball that's your worst case scenario.
Either way, I don't think this is anywhere close to Shea's worst moment on the night.
October 22nd, 2019 at 3:53 AM ^
I agree .... even during the play (when it was live) .when he threw it, I was like what is he doing and then poof ... INT. Then on replay it was ... "what the heck was he looking at / seeing?"
October 21st, 2019 at 12:20 PM ^
Good insight but the game is over. We lost and next up is Notre Dame. Michigan wins this game then they are in new legs the rest of the season.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
I wish the UFRs came out Tuesday Wednesday so I could put this game in the rear view but I HAVE to read them which means I’ll be thinking about Penn State until late Thursday. Yes I’m complaining about a feature that probably takes many hours on a free blog.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:21 PM ^
This was pretty apparent when watching the replay that he tripped & stumbled. What I didn't get is how the tv guy kept talking about how he fell down & was laid out on the ground when the ball was thrown. Do they see the screen or just make it up as they go along?
(Great story on tv announcing vs radio, when tv came to be the number of laterals decreased, as on radio when they got a player wrong they'd just say "he laterals to ____."
October 21st, 2019 at 1:31 PM ^
Fowler has become tiresome in his PBP. He sounded so much of a Pedo St homer that I muted the ABC feed and went with Jim and Jon Jansen on Michigan Football Radio IMG Learfield on Tunein.com.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:36 PM ^
Wow, I did not hear that at all. I have never thought he was particularly suited as a PBP, particularly not a lead guy, but I did not hear a Penn State slant at all. I mean, if you consider he and Herbstreit talking about how Penn State was kicking the absolute shit out of Michigan during the first half, sure, but what else were they were going to talk about? That crew never goes in on officiating like McDonaugh or Klatt will, that is just not their style.
I actually felt like the entire crew was leaning heavily pro-Michigan in the second half to be honest. Herbstreit seemed like he was bordering on just flat out cheering for Michigan at times.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:39 PM ^
I do feel like the announcers should rip officials when appropriate. It might help make the conferences more accountable if incompetent/ biased officiating is called out and seen more clearly by the national audience.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:38 PM ^
Fowler had way too much glee in his call for PSU. Maybe it was just me but it really got under my skin. And, understanding that Brandstatter and Jansen are total homers, boy did they ever rip into the refs. Especially Jansen - he seemed quite pissed off actually.
October 21st, 2019 at 4:14 PM ^
Just like refs, I think announcers can get caught up in the crowd energy. It's part of their job.
Otherwise, I don't know what Fowler and Herbstreit said. I haven't listened to them since The Game in 2016. Strictly Brandy et, al for me.
October 21st, 2019 at 4:01 PM ^
I felt the same way, didn't hear any PSU slant. In fact I thought both held off on taking Michigan to the woodshed when the score went to 21-0. It had all the makings of a beatdown. Whether they felt that Michigan was actually playing better than that, or they were just holding off, not sure. But you could have easily seen them going into a Harbaugh has a lot of problems narrative at that point.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
Charbonnet's fumble the other week was caused because he stumbled after tripping on the OL's leg.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
The QB is 100% supposed to check before throwing, and if it's not there he's supposed to turf it at the RB's feet.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:40 PM ^
I think it is there personally... and goes for a touchdown if executed properly:
Almost all screens are thrown into a crowd to some degree. The blocking is set-up here.
Shea needed a touch more loft on the ball and Ruiz needs to engage #5. If ZC doesn't stumble as Shea is throwing, he's going a long way.
He could have thrown it to Tarik 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage ... and it's maybe a 3 yard gain with 2 blocker for 3 defenders.
The screen has 3 blockers for 2 defenders. Think it was the correct read.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:52 PM ^
I don't have a problem with the read. I'm just addressing OP wondering if the QB is just throwing these on timing and or checking to see if the RB is open or not. Shea in general has pretty bad timing and touch on screens. He needs to draw the rush to him for a beat longer, and as you said put some air under it. On this particular play, I also think he shouldn't have let it go given Charbonnet stumbling, but it's a pretty bang/bang decision so somewhat understandable.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:01 PM ^
Charbonnet started to stumble after Patterson started his throwing motion. Look at the video closely.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:00 PM ^
If you watch the video closely, Patterson already started his throwing motion before Charbonnet stumbles. I'm not blaming Patterson.
Just really too bad the stumble happened. The game would have been different.
But there was a lot of slackly executed plays on offense all night, and all season long now. If the offense was crisp from play one, the game would have been different. But play one was strange---needing Jim Harbaugh to call time out to save a penalty from happening.
I don't see intensity of focus in attention to detail in the offense. That's on Josh Gattis.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:17 PM ^
Great illustration. The blocks seemed to be in place for this to be a very nice gain.
My only nitpick - I don't think Shea has any reads on this play (see my comment below). It's a screen play. I think the screen is THE only option. He looks to the left to get defenders thinking about the existential threat that is Tarik Black, but I don't think a typical screen play is designed with any reads or receiver progressions.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:58 PM ^
Wow that looks open. Mayfield needs to get more push outside so Shea has less pressure.
Maybe get Zach further outside
October 21st, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
yeah, i noticed that while watching it live. but patterson probably should've just kept it and taken a sack or thrown it away.
that said, i feel like in games like this, there are about 5 50/50 events that happen. this was one of them. in big games there's the moment where a defender gets hit right in the chest by a ball and somehow doesn't come away with the INT and everyone's like "wow that really would've shifted the momentum" but it doesn't and it becomes an afterthought. we needed one of those.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:32 PM ^
Yeah, those plays always seem to exist. One that we missed was when the ball dropped out of Hawkins' hands in the 2nd qtr (I think). The ball was deflected and he made a great play just to get his hands on it. But he couldn't hold it, so, yeah... Other than that, everything went against Michigan in this game. The officiating seems biased towards PSU; all the big breaks went to PSU; all the special teams breaks went to PSU... I can't think of one fortunate thing that happened for UM. Maybe a hold, or two, wasn't called? LOL!!
Ugh, that just sucked.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
DPJ drop went directly to Bell for a touchdown, of course called back because an OLineman downfield that happens on every RPO play ever ran is called on that one particular Michigan scoring play.
Deflected ball went right into Eubanks hands for a 1st down. The refs actually didn't delete that one, so yay!
October 21st, 2019 at 1:56 PM ^
The KJ Hamler kickoff return got called back on a pair of holding calls, both of which appeared to be correct. So, at least M did not get screwed on that play, which was fortunate.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
I get that he tripped, but still an unwise decision. If ZC is there, he just gets lit up because that ball is high too. This happened right after the worst OPI call ever right? Play shouldn't have even happened. Hard to play a top 10 team on the road AND the refs at the same time
October 21st, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
At least some of the blame is on the officials, that play never should have happened and UM should have been on PSU's 15 instead. The amount of people downplaying how huge that Collins call was is mind boggling. Goes from PSU's 15 to PSU getting a huge turnover on the very next play, and PSU scoring. Potentially a 10-14 point swing. That call on Collins will easily go down as one of the worst of the year both in terms of the actual call and impact.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:29 PM ^
Perfect case study of how a blown call truly can affect the game. That's, at minimum, a 10 point swing.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Also: DPJ getting interfered with on our 4th down, followed by a PSU TD on their subsequent drive.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:41 PM ^
Wasn't that Black? But yes those two calls had a huge impact, just created point swings that are hard to overcome on the road.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
Another reminder that "game of inches" is not just a cliche' but hard, cold fact. It's true throughout the game — a foot here, a hand there, a shoulder too hard — but a little easier to see in pass plays.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:26 PM ^
This was discussed on the telecast
The play was still shit, however
October 21st, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
Is Patterson supposed to check before he throws there ?
YES YES YES
October 21st, 2019 at 12:28 PM ^
First, thanks for setting the bar slightly higher on this type of post by not just throwing out a one line hot take to bait us into a raging verbal slugfest. Including the video is also extremely helpful, so +1 for taking the time to link it correctly in the OP.
Second, Charbonnet's trip definitely affected this play. If he doesn't trip, the PSU DB still probably blows this play up. But at least it's not an INT.
Third, is the OL allowed to block before Charbonnet catches the ball? Can they engage their blocks before the ball is caught if the completion is behind the line of scrimmage? If so, yeah. OL definitely needs to identify the DB who smartly read the play. But I also think this screen needs to be turfed by Patterson. Too many bodies nearby.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:37 PM ^
Technically, the OL can engage anyone they want so long as they are within 3 yards of the LOS when the pass is thrown. After its thrown, they can head downfield at will. But before its released, they must be at 3 yards or less from the LOS.
Of course, our DB's very often get hit by free releasing OL 5 yards downfield before the pass hits a crosser, and it's never called. Rest assured, the moment Onwenu lights up a safety at 3.5 yards, the whole thing is coming back...
October 21st, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
Thanks for the info. I've watched football for 40+ years, yet I'm embarrassed that I had to ask if the OL can maul anyone on a screen play before the ball is caught.
So catching the ball behind the LOS or waiting for the ball to be caught is irrelevant. 3 yards or less from LOS is the main threshold that determines who the OL is allowed to engage.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:02 PM ^
The OL need to be schooled on stopping their advance at 2 yards downfield on all passing and now RPO plays. Period. The Illinois linemen clearly do this - why not Michigan's?! It seems Gattis and Warinner need to get this straightened out. After 7 games, there's no reason this should be happening.
October 21st, 2019 at 2:14 PM ^
I hope the next Offensive Coordinator Jim Harbuaugh hires is not some unkownn, unproven name.
I really wanted them to get Kevin Wilson when Jedd Fisch left. Ohio St got him.
Maybe Jim McElwain will want to resign from being a head coach, and want to be an OC again, and Michigan can get him next year. Well, no. But maybe.
But there's got to be someone out there that can immediately make the offense look better than this.
October 21st, 2019 at 4:10 PM ^
It's ironic that you say that, because Illinois had a TD against Wisconsin called back because... of an OL illegally downfield.