OT Law school question

Submitted by hillbillyblue on

I have a question for the mgolawyers and those currently in law school.  Is it worth it and would it be wise to take a scholarship at a lesser school or take out loans to go to a school that is ranked a little higher?  I am graduating from Western Michigan this coming Saturday with a degree in criminal justice and a minor in social work and have spent the last two years doing everything necessary to get ready for law school.  I have recently been accepted at Wayne State (currently waiting for scholarship info), have a 75% scholarship at Michigan State, have been placed on waiting lists at Iowa and Wisconsin, and am still waiting to hear back from Chicago-Kent.  The reason that I am asking if it's worth it is because the closer I get to quitting my job and enrolling in a school the more second-guessing I am doing.  I am particularly worried about quitting my job because although I hate it, it pays quite well and I have a famliy to support.  My wife and I have crunched the numbers and it will be possible to live on her income for the next 3-4 years but after that it will be tough.  Any info you guys could give me would be great.  And I am prepared for the snarky comments for considering sparty law.

 

Edit:  I just checked my status at Wayne State and it shows on Friday they mailed out a scholarship acceptance form.

Feat of Clay

April 23rd, 2012 at 8:55 AM ^

Last year I read an article in the New York Times decrying the practice of awarding "renewable" scholarships to law students which come with conditions that are hard to meet. The schools COUNT on some number of students failing to qualify after the first year. Then the students are invested enough that they can't leave, but are paying more tuition than they counted on.

Any of you who are offered (or swayed by) scholarships, ask hard questions about how many past recipients met the conditions to renew them.

ETA:  I see that MULTIPLE respondents to the OP have mentioned this.  It's a real phenomenon; glad the word is getting out because it strikes me as super slimy.

If we're allowed to link, here is the article in question:  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?_r=1

Several of the schools the OP is considering are mentioned.

mach42006

April 22nd, 2012 at 10:18 PM ^

I'm a second year law student at MSU.  I also decided between Wayne State and MSU, they're both very similar in many respects.  It came down to not wanting to live in Detroit, or live outside of Detroit and commute to school every day.  MSU's rankings have been rising steadily, into the upper 80s this year, though I didn't check where Wayne falls on the list.  

I've honestly enjoyed the experience thus far, and I would certainly do it again, but I've wanted  to go to law school for a large portion of my life.  Like everyone else has said, the job market sucks right now.  I got a decent job last summer, but I'm still waiting on responses for this summer.  I didn't get a summer associate position or anything, and I probably won't next year either.  I will be graduating in a year with almost $200k in debt, between undergrad at UM and law school.  Right now I feel like my best option financially is to join the military immediately upon graduation and put in twenty as a JAG Officer, an option I will be examining very closely over the summer.  

If I was in your position, I don't know if I would leave a good paying job.  But if you really want to do law school, MSU isn't a bad place to be.  

WolveJD

April 22nd, 2012 at 10:26 PM ^

I'm a U of Mich law grad, out about 9 years. I'll echo a lot of the sentiments about the devaluation of the law profession over the course of the past few years. When I walked in the early 2000s, even with the 2001 recession, there were enough law firms jobs to go around. That's changed pretty radically since, oh, 2007 and has not really come back yet. To some extent, I think that actually cuts towards taking the best scholarship offer available, rather than going to the best prestige school. Less student loan debt means less financial pressure in the future, and, to some extent the deteriorating job market seems to cut across the tiers of law schools (that is, the job market seems pretty crappy whether you're at UCLA or at Loyola Chicago). If you had Yale or Harvard on hold while pondering a financial aid offer from Wayne (an excellent school that only suffers from, as some people have pointed out here, a lack of branding outside of Detroit), I could see putting off Wayne for either. But I don't think that Wisconsin or Iowa are so good that you should incur the full $120,000-$150,000 student loan debt (no disrespect to my fellow Badger or Hawkeye JD holders).

The frustrating thing is that the market could change in three years (it's happened before; there were small luls in the mid 80s and 90s that were followed by hiring booms), but I have a sinking feeling that the profession as a whole has gone through a restructuring which de-emphasizes route tasks done by junior lawyers.

I'll echo the sentiments below about treating law school as a job. More importantly, I would think of it as an investment whose ROI is difficult to gage. Your students loans (and their interest) will be your buy in; what you get out of it will be determined by some many factors, least of which might be your effort. Being the risk-adverse guy that I am, I would invest (bet?) with the least amount of my own money given the variables in play. I can completely respect the argument of prestige (and it has never hurt me to put Michigan Law on my resume), but I wonder if things have changed so much in the profession that the incredibly high tuition is not worth it, at least on your dime.

My two cents...

MCheerGirl

April 23rd, 2012 at 12:31 PM ^

The consensus seems to be "take the most money from the best school you can in your region," and I'd agree.  The only other thing I wanted to suggest would be to research the faculty in the area you'd like to practice.  I went to a mid-tier school in a big city and really appreciated that the instructors in many electives were practitioners and well respected in the community.  I didn't retain a lot from the core classes, but getting the "hands on" teaching from experienced litigators made a difference when it came time to practice law.  Check out which schools have a clinic or other training in the area you'd like to pursue.     

Good luck with your decision! 

drz1111

April 23rd, 2012 at 12:20 AM ^

First off, everything said upthread about no jobs, six figures of nondischargable debt, brutally difficult and competitive profession- all true. Do not become a lawyer. But another point - I see talk about treating it like a job, or effort. This is bullshit. You cannot "work" law school. One of the oddest aspects of law school is that the ability to get good grades is, essentially, random, and very poorly correlated with past academic experience. I was a diffident UG student with middling grades, got to LS, and basically could not get lower than an A- unless I tried to fuck up. I worked -1hr a day, got a great job, and am now a happy, successful lawyer. All of my close friends were harder working than me -by multiples. All are as smart as me. All had better pre LS records. It didn't matter. LS exams don't reward hard work. They reward some ineffable knack which you either have or you don't, and if you don't, you're screwed. Some people say that if you really want to be a lawyer, you go anyways. This is wrong. There are some thing you want to really do that you don't do out of consideration for the collateral damage you cause to those around you. You don't go home with the pretty young thing at a bar once you're married. You don't ride a superbike when you have a kid at home. And you don't go to law school and play the lottery, when the odds are you will be nothing more than a burden on your loved ones for years after. I was at a top school, with my tuition paid for by an inheritance, no career and single. Maybe I could justify it. You so affirmatively cannot. Please, please, don't go.

MileHighAnnArborite

April 23rd, 2012 at 3:13 AM ^

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, and don't really have anything new to add, except that I think adding yet another voice does have value.  I agree with the initial opinions that say go to a (very) top-ranked school, or go for as close to free as possible wherever do you go.

About me: I graduated from a school in the 15-20 range, was on law review, and worked for a few years at a very highly-ranked east coast Biglaw firm.  I now work in-house for a company in Denver.  By most measures, I'm one of the fortunate ones, with a good resume, and a job I generally like.  That said, I still have a six-figure debt over my head that I think about constantly.  I'm lucky that I graduated at a time when the interest rates were still low enough that I was able to consolidate them at a pretty low interest rate, and although they are daunting, I should be able to pay them back as long as I stay reasonably well-employed.  But my debts still limit my options and will for a very long time.

I'm not as jaded as many lawyers I know, and I genuinely liked law school, but even now I question the decision to go.  I know a lot of people that don't have jobs (or at least not the type of jobs people who go to law school think they will have), and they are truly screwed by their debt loads. 

Basically, I would say this: if you have a true sense of what it is lawyers actually do, and you think you will enjoy the actual day to day of going to law school, then do it if you can go for basically free.  If you have a family especially (I don't), you need to be extremely careful about your decision.  Success in law school is very much a crapshoot, so don't in any way assume you will do well.

I'm not quite to the point of recommending people don't go to law school at all, but the profession has changed drastically from what it was even 5-10 years ago, so it's something you need to be very sure of before you start.

Machine

April 23rd, 2012 at 8:03 AM ^

No matter the forum, these threads are always the same. T-14 or bust, work in big law or you're a fool, etc. As a counter-point, I will say that I went to (gasp) Cooley on a full scholarship so I graduated debt free. The majority of the people in my first-year classes should never have gone to law school (I thank them for going into debt to fund my scholarship) but everyone that graduated who I keep in touch with has found work. No, they are not working in large firms in NYC or Chicago, but most of us weren't in it for that sort of things. Most of us were planning to go back to our small home town and either start a solo practice or work for one of the three or four firms in that small town. Temper your expectations and there is work to found even in this economic climate, even in Michigan. You don't HAVE to go to a T-14. Going to a bottom tier school and graduating with greatly reduced debt is a perfectly valid option although you will have to lower your expectations accordingly. 

96goblue00

April 23rd, 2012 at 12:06 PM ^

At the moment I am doing document review (work that a junior high school kid could do). I have been doing if for a few years now. I share the work space with grads (classes ranging from '05 to '11) from Harvard, Columbia, Berkeley, Northwestern, USC, UVA, Michigan, Georgetown, George Washington, Washington U (St. Louis), Emory, and other schools in the top 50, in addition to schools from the second, third and fourt tiers. There are people here who did moot court, people who were on journals (including law review), people who were associates at large prestigious firms (and lost their jobs because of lay-offs), people who clerked for federal judges, people who worked for the government. In other words, the job market for attorneys at the moment is VERY VERY bleak.

Unless the ABA starts limiting the number of attorneys being pumped out every year into, what is already, a super saturated market (understatement) the problem of normal full-time employment will continue to compound. For many attorneys, these days, there are a few options: (a) doc review, (b) pitching their own shingle, (c) trying to join the military, FBI, or other gov't agency, in a civilian/non-attorney capacity, but in a position where one could at least be able to utilize some of the skills acquired in law school, (d) get out of law altogether. 

Just to illustrate how difficult it is to land a job, my friend who is an attorney at the DOJ used to review apps for the entry-level honors program. He told me that a few years ago, when he was doing this, they received close to 20,000 applications for 35 spots. Keep in mind that 10-15 years ago, there were more than enough jobs in the fed gov't to absorb new graduates, including at the DOJ. In fact, at some agencies, they had a hard time filling positions. Today, they are turning away people who are more than qualified, from top notch law schools, and with impressive resumes, simply because there are not enough spots. If you don't believe me and some of the other posters, just google "job prospect for attorneys" and you will find articles from the likes of Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, NY Times, etc.

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer and disuade you from pursuing your dream, if being an attorney is really a dream of yours. If you really want to be a lawyer, have the luxury of rolling the dice (if it does not work out you can try something else without making a substantial change in your life and taking too much of a hit), and get a substantial scholarship, I don't see that much of a problem of taking a risk and seeing if you can make something of it. However, if risk is something you cannot afford, I would consider other options.    

AndArst

July 17th, 2019 at 9:25 AM ^

My father is a law firm owner and I was always amazed by how much time he spends working. I think that it's just an amazingly exhausting job. I must admit that now he spends more time with us, if I understand things right, they started to use https://www.smartadvocate.com/ so now they don't have to waste that much time on some useless activities but anyway.