OT-In defense of Joe D
It was meant to be. It was the right move. It was the only move. The stars had alligned perfectly. We were not going to have to let go of Trey. He was still going to be able to be our guy. And then David Stern read the name of some guy named Pope and anger, disbelief, and frustration all came together to produce such declarations as "I am never going to watch the Pistons again." These reactions were natural. Visions of Trey nailing a 3 to cement a win with the crowd going crazy as the Palace were strong visions in deed, strong enough to turn a pick that was questionable at best into a pick that made perfect sense. The problem is that the pick never really made sense. Professional sports is a business, investments are made. Brandon Knight was an investment. Perhaps he is not a point guard in the John Stockton sense, but he is quite a hike from two guard, and while Brandon Knight has certainly been up and down, frequently down, through his second year, I can't say that there is enough of a sample size at this point to simply cash in those chips and start from scratch at a position that Joe checked off his list of needs when he drafted Knight just two season ago. Reports of Knight being "terrible" and other such descriptions are overblown. Softomore slumps are not the exception but the norm in the NBA, Knights was a little more perceptible than most, but to label Knight as one of the primary problems with the Pistons roster is absurd. In fact, to the contrary, the Pistons roster is littered with players that have proven that they are servicable at the point. True, at the moment, both Calderon and Bynum are unsigned at this point (I believe), but there is no reason to believe that they won't resign if presented with offers. Trey Burke is a special talent, but the Pistons are trying to build something. I don't think a log jam at the point when other needs could easily be filled makes a whole lot of sense. And while the product on the court is far from optimal at this point, there are the peices to make this team into something formidable in the short term, and like it or not, a wing/two with the ability to create his own shot is the glaring defeciency in the Pistons roster at this point. Pope looks like he has this in spades, and if a talented two guard on the floor only means that I have to look at Rodney Stucky any less than I currently do it cannot be that bad of a thing. Nobody wanted to let go of Trey Burke yet, and the sudden possibility that we would not have to made a bad fit look like a perfect fit, and lead many of us to a conclusion that anything else but Burke was objectively the wrong decision. It may have been, only time will tell. However, let's see how this kid looks before we write off the Pistons for ever. There is the chance that the Pistons got the steal of the draft. His very presence will certainly not stir up the images of glory to us as Trey would have, and the Palace will not enjoy the month of (articifical) sell-outs like Trey Burke would have. But I am both a Pistons fan and a Michigan fan. I am mostly a Michigan fan. The Michigan fan in me hated the pick, but after considering the fact that the Pistons are not the extension of my favorite college team, it may just be that my maize colored glasses convincted me of something that was not in the cards from the get-go.
You lost me at "Softomore"
I would have at least had you until convincted......
They can't sign another 2? They have to start Burke and Knight together? They get to dress 12 people every night. There's no reason Knight couldn't have been the first guard off the bench. Your whole post makes no sense. How is Utah the perfect fit for Trey?
I think you mean "Incorrect."
tl;dr
Yes, yes I would like them to draft all Michigan players.
Those defending Joe Dumars are not exactly convincing me by saying "you guys know nothing about basketball".
He is potentially worse through trades. The Pistons need to hope that they are really bad next year. Joe Dumars included this little gem when he traded Ben Gordon to the Bobcats for Corey Magguette (sidenote: saddest trade of all time): 2013 Pistons first round pick to the Bobcats (protected top 14 in 2013, top 8 in 2014, top 1 in 2015, unprotected in 2016)
Lasted one additional year. That is not worth a first round draft pick, especially with: 1. one of the deepest and best drafts in recent memory coming up, and 2. If your team is not improving and you are going to give up a top pick.
I will admit that I am a Bobcats fan and was shocked that MJ and the crew could actually work somebody over like this.
He helped as much as Maguette, which is none. Both rode the bench and we got a 1st round pick out of it, which was the reason we made the trade. Trust me, nobody was bringing in Gordon as a solution for the Bobcats.
As I listed, if it isnt next year then we get any selection you have that isnt number 1, and if you are number 1 then we get any pick the year after.
If you do not see how Dumars screwed up here, then you are just blinded. Rat.
They also could have amnestied Gordon and kept the pick.
And it's a pick where even if it's lower that you could get a better player than they were getting in this year's draft. And in return, for what? To sign some pretty good NBA player?
That was an absolutely terrible decision. I don't understand why they didn't just amnesty him. It would have been a far better move if they really wanted to get rid of Gordon. There was no need to basically give away a first round pick for nothing.
I was expecting one of two things: 1) Joe to hold onto the expirings of Bynum/Maxiell/Maggette and do something awesome with it at the deadline 2) the amnesty to be used on Villanueva. Alas, neither happened.
Now, however, we're in a position that we can absorb big/bad contracts with our cap space. I'm not too in love with this free agency period, but I am excited about the prospects of pilfering other rosters like they were our own personal free agent pool.
the Pistons didn't need just any wing, they needed a 3! The Pistons roster is filled with 2s--including IMHO the tweener Brandon Knight. There isn't a decent 3 on the roster--and Calwell-Pope definitely isn't a 3. I'd suggest that unless you remain in the Knight-as-point camp, the Pistons second greatest need was a true point guard. And, I believe there was a decent one was available at 8.
Also, credentials please.
If he wanted a tall PG, he could have taken MCW. I think Joe D is done after this season anyway.
Facts:
(1) The one spot where this year's draft was strong was PG.
(2) Detroit's biggest need was PG.
(3) At the time that Detroit was selecting, the #1, #2 and #3 PG's were available (Burke, McCollum and MCW).
(4) Detroit chose the #2 SG instead.
They made their choice and that's fine, but I think these are the facts that we can agree on.
knight, calderon, bynum, stuckey are all pgs. stuckey, more of a combo, fine.
kim english, kyle singler. those are our 2 guards. we needed a 2 guard. neither of those guys can create their own shot. Pope can.
These are facts that we can agree on.
You just said 6'8" Singler was a 2 guard...
According to 82games Singler played near equal time at the 2 and the 3, but the team was more successful with him playing SG.
We wasted a ridiculous amount of cap space on Stuckey and Ben Gordon. When we finally get rid of them, we draft their clone. How does that make any damn sense?
Knight: really not showing he can handle the point
Calderon: old, not a long term solution
Bynum: maybe, but more of a Vinnie Johnson off-the-bench scoring spark
Stuckey: no. Just...no.
Calderon is 31 and has actually improved his performance rather than showing signs of decline. He also plays a style that ages well. If he resigns I expect him to be an excellent pg for the next 3-4 years.
ain't a point. Even the Pistons have reached that conclusion.
ain't a point. Even the Pistons have reached that conclusion.
I don't really agreee. The Pistons don't have a starting caliber PG, SG or SF. Since I'm a Michigan fan I wanted them to draft Burke, but I think the correct strategy was to draft the BPA at any of those positions. Clearly, Dumars thought that KCP was the BPA at a position of need. I think that's debatable, but it's clear that KCP is a quality player.
The Detroit Bad Boys blog provides excellent analysis and their writers have been calling for Joe D to be fired for the last couple years. And the loved this draft. I'd recommend that everyone criticizing the KCP pick go read this post by a life long Michigan fan who was hoping for the Pistons to pick Burke just like the rest of us. There are several other great posts outlining why Pistons' fans should be excited by both the KCP and Tony Mitchell picks. Tony Mitchell might be the steal of the draft. The pistons drafted two potential impact players at positions of need - SG and SF. That's a successful draft in my opinion.
For Burke to drop to them. And it was never "if KCP isn't available."
Did you read the story I linked to? The author wanted the Pistons to pick Burke, but after examining the stats and draft evaluations concluded that KCP was a good pick.
I personally think the writing and analysis at DBB is superior to PP, but even PP had KCP ranked #7 on their draft board (Burke was #4). I think Burke and KCP are roughly equivalent (in terms of quality) prospects, but I would've preferred Burke because I love his game and I'm a Michigan fan. A lot of people here are acting like KCP was a horrible, indefensible pick because Trey Burke is clearly the superior prospect and then not really backing it up with any statistical evidence. That's what I'm pushing back on. The other gem of an argument is that PG was our biggest need, which isn't true. Positions 1-3 were a tire fire so we just needed to pick the BPA at one of those 3 positions.
going to play the 2. Are you still under the impression that the Stuckey experiment is still on-going. He is on our roster right now because the only takers for a trade have likely been Penn State and Vanderbilt. The sooner he can be relegated to the non-existent the better. And really with Singler as the answer at small forward in the long term? The back of his jersey may as well have read "Stop Gap" for god sake. That is exactly my point. The tire fire on the Pistons has been the two/wing position, and Stucky is history. That was the very reasoning behind the pick.
So to me, entering the draft, Pistons needed a sure-fire SF #1 priority by far. That player wasn't available. Ok fine. #2 we either needed a star SG, and address PG and SF later. Maybe we got that (if so I'll eat my socks).
But what I wanted in my heart of hearts was to get the most sure player in the draft--Trey---and play SG as a committee and address Singler later.
I'd like to believe that Trey is the "most sure player in the draft", but I have a hard time believing that without wearing seriously thick maize colored glasses.
I guess it depends what you mean by "most sure" - I suspect Burke is a "sure thing" as a competent distributor, but he's definitely not a sure-fire star. I'd probably say, to use the recruiting parlance of this blog, that NBA Burke has low variance but a moderate ceiling.
I know very little about Pope, but I'd say his ceiling may be higher than Burke's (at least for what the Pistons need) although his variance is also likely higher (he was the star of a crap team in a crap conference).
The other issue is that you do have to consider the totality of the draft - the Pistons picked up Siva in the 2nd, and while he's not as good as Burke, could the Pistons have gotten a similarly good wing in the 2nd round? In other words, the question is not just "is Burke > Pope" it's "is Pope + Siva > Burke + 2nd round Pope equivalent".
Tell me if I'm wrong but what I was reading made it seem like Tony Mitchell could play the 3. Seems like he was a steal there in the 2nd round.
We drafted Tony Mitchell at the 3. He might be the steal of the draft. I recommend this post.
He has played in 141 games and averaged 32 min per game. I think that's plenty for a sample size to prove he's not a pg. I think you are just trying to stick up for Joe D, when everyone else knows he dropped the ball. Look at this draft failures, Cleeves, White, Daye, Stuckey, Darko, Maxiel, Knight.
Please don't try to support this terrible GM.
I don't know about you but I had Ryan Howard as #2 on my 2003 MBA draft board