OT - Chevy Volt/Electric Cars

lol I drive a ford Lightning with 500 HP so I am the wrong person to ask

Who also heard similar concerns about Li+ batteries in a combustion class, I believe that GM is probably taking the cost of replacing the batteries upon themselves. There was also talk in the class about how useful batteries that would no longer meet standards for cars can be sold to utility companies to help "level" the production of electrical power, so it may make more business sense to warranty the batteries for a long time in order to ensure they're off the road yet still being used.

Its a marketing issue. Very likely, GM's focus groups brought to light a question of confidence in new technology and/or new infrastructure. The 8-year warranty is meant to provide would-be buyers a measure of confidence that GM will stand behind its vehicles. I'm willing to bet that the warranty does not cover battery life, however, only durability issues of the battery pack itself.

They do not intend to make money on this car. They will limit the production and lose money on each one, but benefit from the PR and move up the learning curve. FWIW, they make all their money on trucks right now.

A couple things:

- GM's designed the Volt so that the gas engine kicks in to power the battery when the battery drops below something like 25% of total charge, and they've also fixed it so that when you plug in the battery, it doesn't charge up beyond something like 80 or 85%.  That's for battery-life purposes - they die when you do things to them like charge them all the way and then run them down all the way, over and over and over.  Laptops usually just drain the battery all the way.

- If GM's right about their 40 mile thing, people aren't gonna drive the car long enough to kick in the gas engine frequently enough to notice the battery life cutting in half, even if it does, which because of the above, GM figures it won't.

- The warranty probably covers total failure of the battery, not a gradual burnout of its lifecycle.

I work for a company that supplies batteries for the OEM's.  The battery chemistries that are used in hybrids and EV's are expected to last 10 to 15 years, which means that they have to meet a power requirement after 10 years and 15 years, and is based on cycles rather than miles. So yes the range will go down after extended use, but the industry is trying to push these limits even further. GM's 8 year warranty is pretty understandable for a new technology and is similar to what Mazda ended up giving for its rotary engine. I would not expect a large drop in range until 12-15 yrs if the cells were made well.

The main issue with battery technology is weight and cost. Economies of scale would hopefully bring cost down. There are also some new lithium technologies that could have amazing power density, but are years away since they can only accept 1 charge. Anyway, hope that helps.

I have a short  5 mile commute and would love to try it out.  Plus i think it looks cool.

I took ME 438 last year; great class, but Assanis wasn't teaching it. I do engine research at Michigan, so I may be a little biased, but I don't think the technology is there yet for electric/hybrid vehicles. I think GDI, HCCI, and small-scale diesels are the best choice right now until the energy density of battery technology catches up. I saw a study out of UW that uses a gasoline pilot charge and a diesel main charge and got great fuel economy and emissions.

if you want to further a new technology.  This takes any concern out of the customers mind and they can focus on the purchase of a vehicle that moves the country away from our oil infatuation.  Battery technology has come along way.  However, there will be issues as with any new technology ... even gas-powered vehicles have an extended warranty ... go figure.  In this case, the customer is protected.  Go Blue!

A bit away from the topic at hand but it's likely to be a major factor nonetheless.......

I think the biggest factor working against the Volt might be the payoff period, as it relates to smaller cars, such as the Cruze. I don't think it's going to be the reliability of the batteries. A few admitted assumptions here:

I think I read that a Volt is going to sell for ~ $40K, with a $7,500 tax credit, for a net of about $32,500.

A Chevy Cruze will probably go for, what, $18,000? Let's assume that these prices are after sales tax, delivery charges, etc, and absent of any interest charges on any monthly payments.

There's a $14,500 price difference there, after tax credits. For the average consumer, the logic behind buying the Volt, primarily, is to save money on gas. Let's take the Volt at face value and say that it gets the 250 MPG that GM was talking about a few months ago. Let's also assume that the Cruze will return 40 MPG. Let's assume all maintenance costs are relatively comparable, and that the batteries in the Volt hold up (both dangerous assumptions, but let's not make too much of a mess here, shall we?).

After 100,000 miles, the Volt has used 400 gallons of gas over the life of the vehicle. The Cruze has used 2,500. The Volt has saved 2,100 gallons of gas. At $3/gallon, the Volt has saved $6,300, far short of the $14,500 price differential.

The payback period, with gas at $3 per gallon, is just over 230,000 miles.

At $4/gallon, it's just over 172,600 miles.

At $6.75/gallon, it's just under 102,300 miles.

People aren't going to like what I have to say here, but if General Motors is going to put a $40,000 price tag on the Volt, people are going to be far better off financially buying the 40 MPG Cruze instead of a 250 MPG Volt, unless gas prices go absolutely apeshit over the next 5 years, far more than what we've seen in the past 3-4 years.

will be around for a very long time. In the short term, there's nothing that can really compete on a cost and practical basis. Significant investment is still needed in battery development and infrastructure for providing charging stations. In the meantime IC will continue to improve efficiency (whether or not technologies like HCCI pan out). And even as oil prices go up and make electric more cost competitive, renewable IC fuels will also become more competitive, whether this be biofuels, natural gas, or hydrogen. Even longer term one has to start thinking about lithium being a limited resource, especially with it's growing everyday demand. Some might point to fuel cells but there are large hurdles to overcome in membrane technology. Even then a hydrogen powered IC engine may be better when considering chemical requirements and sustainability issues with fuel cells.

Nissan is claiming 70-80% percent battery life after 10 years for its new Leaf. The only catch is, of course, that battery life is affected by charging habits.
Type: Laminated lithium-ion battery Total capacity (kWh): 24 Power output (kW): Over 90 Number of modules: 48 Battery pack
Charging times: -Quick charger DC50kW (0 to 80%): apx. 30 min -Home-use AC240V charging dock (0-100%): less than 8 hrs Battery layout: Under seat & floor Battery life: After 10 years, the battery is expected to have 70-80 percent of its original storage capacity

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack...

I read something about six months ago (it might have been Motor Trend) that when Ford was testing their Fusion Hybrids, they were going to rate the batteries to last 150,000 miles, and there were many instances where the batteries were topping 300,000 miles. If GM can do that, they have an out-and-out winner on their hands, assuming that they can drop $10K off of the sticker over the next few years.

As it stands now, the Volt is a niche vehicle. Companies such as General Motors do not survive on niches. Otherwise they could just sell a few Corvettes and call it a day. If they can lower the price of the vehicle over time, and the batteries can hold their own north of 150,000 miles, this will become a mainstream vehicle over time, and a winner in the showroom.

Certainly, mgowin, but at $40,000 a pop, people are going to go broke saving money on gas.