"OSU recruiting leaving Michigan, Big Ten in the dust"
Presented without comment, other than there is an interesting anecdote about OSU's different approach to handing out offers
All of it is completely clean and above board, I'm sure...
I'm not naive, I wouldn't be surprised if OSU, and many, many programs are involved in some of the shadier aspects of recruiting.. but your comment just sounds like sour grapes. Read the article.. OSU has 15 first round picks in the last five years, UM has 4 in that time span.
https://mgoblue.com/news/2008/7/11/Michigan_s_First_Round_NFL_Draft_Selections.aspx
At this point, the "OSU cheats" mantra on these boards just makes me chuckle, it seems to be the only pearl you have left to clutch.
Your going to get negged for this but it's not wrong. There was that 247 piece a couple weeks ago that basically says Michigan is only slightly above average at developing talent while OSU is in the upper crust. And if it's true everybody is cheating (as this board claims) and nothing is happening to those programs than Michigan not doing what those programs are doing is Michigan voluntarily putting themselves at a disadvantage. But, it's easy to just say someone cheats when you lose to them and move on.
This board negs anything they don't agree with, as opposed to trying to view a topic from a different respective, and weighing the merits from that point of view. The "We're Leaders and Champions, everyone else just cheats" portion of the fanbase is pretty laughable to everyone outside of Ann Arbor.
I don't mind the negs.. I'm an OSU fan on a UM board after all.
Most content here is good, but the recruiting takes are all just part of an echo chamber. Like, Michigan's class is currently behind Minnesota and Iowa. That's not good enough. Just say it, it's okay to.
Problem is, Michigan’s class isn’t actually behind them. It’s May. Those schools have more commits than UofM. That’s the only reason their classes are ranked higher currently. It won’t finish that way, as Michigan has a pretty significantly higher average recruit ranking than those teams and are in the mix for more highly ranked guys than those teams too.
Alabama has the #44 ranked class right now. They’re behind freaking Toledo. They also only have 5 commits so far. It’s May. People need to stop worrying about where a recruiting class is ranked when the vast majority of classes are still less than 50% complete.
Remember like a year ago when Michigan finished ahead of OSU technically because they had more commits? You all didn't want to hear that.
I agree the bagman bit is only a sliver of it all...if it was nothing more than cash, kids still have SEC programs and I am sure...many other cash options available with better locale than columbus.
Bigger perspective, you had a string of winning coaches who also just let shit roll...tat gate, car gate, cash gate etc.. the climate of a blind eye to discipline I'm sure was rather appealing. Beyond that, it's plain and simple. The top talent wants to end up in the NFL. IF your team is on the big bowl stage year in and year out, and you thump the crap out of your biggest brand/biggest rival for a decade...it's a no brainer. Add to that winning a national title the first CFP series, and making a few appearances in the final four here's how a recruit meeting might go
Coach: We were one piece away from making the championship game. We just signed players x, y, and z...YOU are that missing piece. Come be part of something special and start your path to the NFL.
Coach AA: yeah, it's been a rough ten years since our coach sold out the program, we hope to have a shot at making the conference championship if you come to Michigan. Can you please help us? We need to restore Michigan to the program it was. And you will have to attend classes. And if that NFL thing doesn't work out, at least you have a great degree.
Yeah I'm being over the top and mostly sarcastic...but it's a completely different sales pitch right now, and it's difficult going from Michigan of the 80's and 90's to this shit. Before Llloyd gave up, there was talk of Michigan facing OSU in a bowl right after the game in Ann Arbor...it seems so long ago. OSU is just on a completely different trajectory right now. And with NIL etc it will be nearly impossible to derail the program unless there is a dramatic coaching change in Columbus.
While I'd like to think the darker parts of OSU's program are over (and lets be honest, $100 handshakes and tattoos for jersey's is pretty petty looking back, OBJ literally just handed out cash to players on live TV at the National Championship Game (!!!)), I can't pretend to know what's going on inside the program, so I wont.
To your other point, yeah... Championships, playoff berths, and putting guys in the league are all pretty big selling points to recruits. But to some on these boards... it'll ALWAYS be just the bag-men wearing S&G.
This is straight up apologism for a program with a long (and well documented) history of far more than $100 handshakes, weed, tats, free cars, fake jobs in Cleveland, playing school, online coursework at the football complex...(just a few examples, my friend), disassociated boosters and on and on.
T(tm)OSU does a great job at recruiting at a bottom line within the current milieu. The SEC axiom of "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" applies and rightly or wrongly T(tm)OSU administration is well aware, from years of experience, that a toothless NCAA is not really going to do much for even the most egregious of institutional indiscretion.
It is tiring (perhaps as tiring as you hearing M fans, and others, complain about certain recruiting *advantages*) to see you and your (occasionally sycophant level) crew continually minimize these *advantages* and thinking (hopefully assuming?) that certain indiscretions are over while playing up the cumulative outcomes of those advantages over time (which is putting players in the league, championships etc.).
I'll await some T(tm)OSU white knights.
Ohio State wins and doesn't let anything get in the way of winning. The winning attracts more top-end talent, and that top-end talent wins more. It also attracts top-end coaching talent, which are paid more (even after they give some of it to the players) than most FBS head coaches. It's an exponential cycle only a little bit held back by systems in place to stop it, some of which only work to further push the top programs further ahead of their peers. These factors help Michigan too, but help Ohio State more, and in a world of exponents if you're the 5 being increased by a factor of 5 while your enemy is a 6 increasing at a factor of 6, all you see is the massive gulf forming between Michigan and Ohio State, and not the similar one forming between Michigan and Michigan State.
Ohio State's whole thing is they're going to treat you like a professional, pay you like a professional, hold you to the standards of a professional, and not pretend otherwise. At every level of the program Ohio State operates like a business. And many college football fans, including to a degree the people at charge at Michigan, are still under the now-insane assumption that it isn't one already.
Elite high school players are far more realistic about this. Their goal is to get to the NFL and maximize their personal value, and that means getting world-class coaching, playing for the largest fanbases, playing in championship games and the playoffs, and going to programs that won't be distracted from that goal. Fans don't understand this at all: when you're talking about the top 50 players in any given year you're talking about people whose entire families have been laser-focused on maximizing this player's athletic potential for years. Most of us have never worked as hard as these players worked in middle school toward this goal, nor understand the competitiveness among the top players, and the difference it makes to your entire life if you're a 1st rounder, or if you play one more year in the NFL because of the decisions you made along the way.
Michigan has a good niche: it's the biggest stadium, the richest fanbase, and the "40-Year Plan"--when football is over wherever it left you, you'll have the best degree and the best business connections and the best education to be successful in something else. When the amateurism bullshit is gotten rid of and Michigan fans can train the money cannon on something other than another tattoo for Spencer Hall, we'll also be able to offer the same money now that cash-under-the-table construction business owners are giving out to convince players to sign up for a loser like Tennessee.
Ohio State has the best niche. They are the pro program, in an age when being a pro is what the best players have top of mind, and offer a good enough education, a big enough fanbase, the best coaching, and the promise of all the winning an insanely competitive heart needs.
Our best hope is that the college football gods are fickle and more of Ohio State's run of success has been about luck than they're ready to admit: like if only 90% of things go the Buckeyes' way instead of 98% Michigan has a huge upset in 2013, another huge upset in 2017, and Big Ten Championships in 2016 and 2018 (that we backed into thanks to Maryland or Penn State). Hell, Urban Meyer's program could have become untracked in 2012 if Al Borges hadn't Galaxy Brained his use of Denard in the 2nd half--there was some extreme dislike of Urban among the Tressel guys, and winning that game then carrying Tressel off the field is what made them disappear. Imagine instead if his first offseason he's carrying a loss where he got outcoached by Brady Hoke.
Michigan's watching the exponents, and that matters, but it's not as hard to change those numbers as it looks right now.
Seth, appreciate the response.. that's a much better written way of stating the discussion I was attempting to have... that there's a whole lot more to recruiting success than "bagmen" or "cheating". I never want to be "that OSU guy" that spouts off and incites inflammatory discussion, but I'm getting killed for trying to have the conversation, so I guess I learned my lesson.
@OfficerRabbit
I don't understand why both can't be true? OSU can be extremely good at everything football-related (coaching, development, exclusive focus, win, etc.) and cheat on top of it to achieve even better results. Why is it that everything else dwarfs the cheating? It's all circular and all helpful - why should we pretend that the cheating is just a small part of it? Obviously, getting better recruits by paying them is a big advantage. Just stating that fact doesn't take away from the fact that OSU is extremely good at all the other aspects of being a football factory as well.
By the way, I've written diaries on this and personally believe that we should move to the OSU model. There is no judgment from me for OSU doing whatever it takes to win (not the wife beater shit, I just mean paying players which I can't find any argument against).
Both can absolutely be true, I'm not arguing that by any means. To pretend like I, or most of us have any real idea just how slimy recruiting is seems to me to be a bit disingenuous. I just find the mindset here to be all about "OSU cheating", with a lot of UM fans overlooking the fact that recruits are also eyeballing development, winning championships, and going to The League. Appreciate the rational question and comment, don't think this is a subject I'll be touching again around these parts.
Have a look at the data and let me know what you think. Obviously, my conclusion is that it's difficult for OSU to have generated the recruiting gap that it has without paying players. I don't think that these results are achievable without paying players, and every other team that is recruiting at a similar level is paying players.
Everything you've said here is accurate and pertinent. The one perspective this blog lacks (badly) is that of people who feel that universities are not - and should not become - minor league football. I am perfectly content to have UMich hockey levels for football - even if that means I never get another Woodson. If for no better reason than I think I will still get plenty of awesome memories.
I WANT the NCAA to have enough balls to tell the NFL to figure out how to make the XFL or whatever system they want work. I want 40 of the top 50 players each year to choose the XFL over college. I think that the professionalizing of college football is to the detriment of the sport - and will NEVER under any circumstances encourage M to give up on student athletes. If their only goal is to go pro and forego the educational college experience, by all means, have at it, but then don't put on the M jersey.
What are the gains vs what are the losses down the road you want us to take? I see ruin. I also see no evidence that you or Brian game that through. Don't misunderstand Seth, I'm a huge fan of yours, (and I respect Brian's writing skill) - all I'm doing is presenting another perspective.
This doesn't resemble modern college football at all. Sounds like you want to move to FCS. At least they have a 16 team playoff.
I hate the playoff and would gladly do away with it altogether. I'm not quite sure how you got more playoff out of my post. Playoffs are what happens when a 13 year-old finds a playboy. Yeah, there's a happy ending, but does it ever really accomplish what it's supposed to?
"This board negs anything they don't agree with."
That's a microcosm of any internet board you find out there these days. Sports, politics, whatever. I don't disagree that stuff around here gets negged that probably shouldn't be, but come on, man. That's not unique to Michigan. It happens everywhere. I'd venture a guess it happens on OSU boards to some degree, too.
You probably don't have it quite as much because when the football team wins everyone tends to shut up and fall in line, but I'm sure it still happens to a degree. God forbid if your team started losing one day I can't imagine the destruction your fanbase would inflict upon itself. You'd all be just as susceptible to tearing yourselves apart, if not moreso, because losing doesn't happen much to OSU. I highly doubt OSU boards are naturally more open to "trying to view a topic from a different respective, and weighing the merits from that point of view."
You just haven't had to worry about that as much because your football team wins, and when they win everyone's happy.
Can confirm on the losing comment. If you want have some fun at our expense, go read 11W anytime OSU drops a game against Iowa, or Purdue, etc. Coaches need fired, players need to benched, etc.... all after one loss in a season. Losses are certainly not handled well, or rationally.
Yeah well...consider losing since 2008...all the angst and finger pointing. I lived my glory days at Michigan when we won everything. Basketball in 89, rose bowls, etc. So this deviation to mediocrity has been painful. It's salted by the fact OSU is on a generational run.
It started with a lot of crap under Tressel, adding Meyer to the mix bringing SEC ways made it worse. It seems like Day is his own guy who loads and reloads and we can't catch a break. We've increased talent and had some near miss games as Seth mentioned...it's just hard to accept that reality... nobody wants to admit the obvious.
Yeah, well, Harbaugh has put a ton of players in the NFL via 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds. I betcha we're beating OSU in those regards. Take that!
Count me as one who thinks the bagman excuse is exhausting. You still have to develop the talent and put them in a position to succeed. OSU is clearing doing both, which is resulting in B1G Titles, Playoff appearance, and landing the best recruits. Harbaugh would be wise to get the best assistant coaches in the business that has a track record of developing talent at the highest level while getting recruiting minded hawks. It seems like OSU has those characteristics in all their coaches.
Until Michigan does that, we'll continue to be second and third fiddlers to OSU. The sad part is most of the fanbase appears content with that.
it's easy, and incredibly naive to say, "Harbaugh would be wise to get the best assistant coaches ..." as though he's out there with an easy to understand list of "here's the objectively best position coach at east spot" and he's simply choosing lesser options.
Just like linemen; sometimes you can have a perfect build, a perfect pedigree at a highly competitive high school and there something that just doesn't quite pop. Sometimes the will to win comes out of a walk-on who doesn't have quite the right anything.
It's also extremely short-sighted, lest you think RRod or Hoke were deliberately chosen in order to fail? Intelligent, trained, experienced people chose those two.
I want B1G championships, playoffs, etc. as much as any fan - but right now today I've got a coach that has made M a perennial 10-win top 15 with kids I'm excited to cheer for - and PROUD to cheer for. I'm perfectly willing to give him more benefit of the doubt while he pushes our program forward. I'd MUCH rather have 10-win teams I'm proud of than 3 consecutive worst-defenses-in-program-history or 5-7 teams that couldn't score in a Bangkok brothel with a million dollars US. That's the risk too if we replace Harbaugh, it's a very real gamble, and one we've lost recently. If you think we can win twice in a row, that's your opinion, the odds are against it.
I gotta pearl for ya, I'll put it right on your neck and face.
Talking about the cult that needed a lawyer from Tennessee to uncover its pay to play scandal in early 2000's? Or the time an outside reporter had to uncover the domestic abuse?
That's the cult we're supposed to believe isn't doing anything shadier than the rest?
Ah yes the number of first round picks totally blows his point that OSU is cheating their asses off out of the water. Man what a sick dunk.
That's funny, I chuckle whenever a mouthbreathing buckeye tries to equivocate their sports academy with a real university. For example, OSU has no standardized testing requirements for admission. It actually is a lot easier to get into OSU than Michigan.
OSU has no standardized testing requirements for admission
Actually this isn’t true. It will get you a bunch of thumbs up here...but apparently you didn’t learn research at Michigan.
https://www.thoughtco.com/act-scores-for-big-ten-admission-788793
I'm sure this made you feel good to type but at Michigan I learned to research primary sources that actually back what I'm saying, rather than going to "thoughtco" to make a point that is mildly adjacent to the one I'm making (average admissions scores versus requirements).
If you go to the actual admissions website at Ohio Sports University, it will tell you that there are no admissions requirements related to ACT / SAT scores:
http://undergrad.osu.edu/apply/freshmen-columbus/who-gets-in
I've uploaded a picture for the other kids who can't read good:
A serious question: What are Michigan's ACT/SAT admission requirements?
They do not list them explicitly by number, noting in another section that sometimes individual programs have differences, but they are required.
https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/selection-process
So, basically the same as OSU
Looks like the NCAA has a sliding scale of GPA/Test Scores for all D1 athletic scholarships which it appears UM and OSU both have to adhere to. I made sure to link to a website Denard in Space will approve of:
https://mgoblue.com/sports/2017/6/16/compliance-pr-initial-eligibility-html.aspx
Link for actual requirements:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/eligibility_center/Quick_Reference_Sheet.pdf
The uh, "researcher" you replied to linked OSU's general undergrad attendance requirements, not the athletes this discussion pertains too. Bottom line, 2.0 GPA to be on scholarship, 2.3 GPA to be eligible to play.
So you're saying that you read this? Link one says that students have to "Present a qualifying test score on either the ACT or SAT." What is a qualifying score for an institution that has no minimum requirement in the first place?
If you're saying that it is the sliding scale mandated by the NCAA that OSU abides in good faith, then the suggestion is even more farcical. You have to score crazy high if you have a borderline GPA. I am extremely skeptical this isn't used to OSU's advantage for certain recruits. And that's not even talking about the cheating -- this is above board! Just emblematic of the fact that OSU is across the board a lesser institution with the exception of the football program.
It's just easier to get into OSU than Michigan, plain and simple. That's an advantage!
I like you.. you make me laugh. You don't really seem to grasp that athletes on scholarship are subject to different admissions standards for OSU, and UM. OSU's general admissions (non athletes) doesn't require test scores, but you can't provide any required test scores for UM general admissions either. The NCAA absolutely does require test scores, and I linked to UM's own athletic site, as well as the NCAA required admissions as proof. I'm not going to pretend like numbers aren't skewed for certain athletes, but I'm fairly confident that applies just about everywhere. Five star Rashan Gary and his Wonderlic score of 9 might have a word with you.
I don't think anyone here or on 11W is going to argue that UM is not academically superior, it's a fantastic school. OSU isn't too bad either, but that's for another thread.
If you want to harp on not having minimum test scores for general undergrads... go right ahead. There are plenty of reasons to support that, most of them centered around students who don't test well, are underprivileged, come from poor school systems, difficult backgrounds, etc. Have fun criticizing that my man...
Double post
I know. Everyone used to say Miami was cheating. Turns out . . . they were.
Everyone used to say USC was cheating. Turns out . . . they were.
Everyone used to say Tressel/OSU were cheating. Turns out . . . they were.
Every few years we get these posts that say "Program X is so incredible they don't need to cheat." And a few years after that we find out they were cheating. How many times does that have to happen before you believe it?
This is a great reminder that the 5 stars who pick Michigan over OSU, Clemson, and Alabama are doing so because of our great general education degree being much more valuable than money or other benefits, and not because they are getting benefits from Michigan.
Clean not clean don’t care anymore and the bottom line is they whipped are asses over and over and over for what seems like a god damn eternity now. They have have done this so much that my guess is they don’t have to cheat. Take your bias out of this. Your a kid,,,do you want to have a shot to win the national championship and basically be the big ten champ 9 out 10 years or do you want to fight for 2nd place in the big ten east. Until we beat them more then once in an eternity it’s over the kids already want to go there
No need to click the Freep link. Fluff piece about OSU QB commit Kyle McCord.
It does mention Donovan Edwards is no longer considering OSU, fwiw
Probably because they have the #2 and #5 (composite) RBs committed.
I like Edwards as a prospect more than both of their guys.
Their wide recievers are what's going to keep them at the top of the B1G and losing in the playoffs.
I'll bet there's lots of fresh info in here none of us knew already
Fair--though I did not know before reading this that OSU hands out way less offers than we do, and has a different approach to identifying their top guy.
OSU hands out way less offers than we do, and has a different approach to identifying their top guy.
Thank you could give a summary of those items
Admittedly I haven't- and won't- read the article, but regardless of what it says, I'm guessing they log in to their 247 account, look at the rankings, and offer accordingly. Urban Meyer admitted to doing this. Obviously it worked though ?♂️
OSU doesn't really have to do a whole lot of scouting. They can log into 247 or Rivals, look at the top guys on the board, send out offers, and feel fairly confident they're going to get commitments from a lot of them.
I, too, am shocked by an accurate headline on a freep article.
Tell us something we don't know.
I lost my first bet of the day (that this was a post by Maizen69).