Offensive Issues
Here is a summary of what I see as the key issues with offense/execution/coaching. It’s hard to separate out which of those is the cause of each one. Or maybe it isn’t that simple since they are all Synergistic.
1) we run a lot of QB read plays that seem to not actually be QB reads. Why is that our base play if we don’t make it a true threat? Who is making the call not to run the QB?
POSSIBLE explanation: these are traditional run plays that could just as easily be (and in many cases are) run with no read or mesh at all. So even though they rarely do it it gives the option to run the an when needed without doing it all the time.
2) in some games (not all) it seems like we are unable to adjust. E.g against Rutgers we didn’t run much down G or edge runs, a topic of discussion in today’s podcast. Why?
POSSIBLE explanation: they have installed only certain portion of the offense at this point. Or even if more is installed practices a certain subset and therefore wouldn’t want to or be able to ‘panic’ and switch to plays that weren’t prepped for prior to the game.
There are a lot of people on here that have strong opinions on what should or shouldn’t happen with the coaching staff. In order for me to know what should or shouldn’t happen I feel like I would need to know the answers to these questions at least. What are your thoughts on these answers and how this is the case? Am I missing something? Anyone with college coaching experience or any ex players that can speak to this?
I suspect this is something that insiders can’t even really question for fear of ‘stirring the pot’ too much right?
September 26th, 2021 at 10:41 PM ^
You could say that
September 26th, 2021 at 11:13 PM ^
again
September 26th, 2021 at 10:44 PM ^
You honestly think that in college football at this level, we started the season without installing the QB keep portion of the zone read?
Most teams have their entire offenses installed in camp. From there, they make adjustments and add counters to.
Good teams, that is.
September 26th, 2021 at 10:49 PM ^
Yeah I think it’s pretty silly to insinuate that by Week 4 of the season we don’t have the offense (or parts) installed yet. Especially considering it’s not like Gattis is new. Most of these guys have been in the system for a few years now. The changes made to the system in the off-season don’t take long to install.
New plays and adjustments are made throughout the year, but the system is installed. If it’s not by this point we should just fire the entire offensive staff out of a cannon immediately.
September 26th, 2021 at 10:55 PM ^
I’m not sure of anything I’m asking.
im also observing that Michigan has a record of very deliberately running 1-2 types of runs in one game then the next doing something different. Are y’all saying you think that’s stupid and we should just call what works? Maybe…
Brian, has charted enough plays to know if other teams typically do the same type of thing? Run only counter one week then the next run a bunch of power?
September 27th, 2021 at 5:34 AM ^
That’s because coaches will analyze opponents strengths, weaknesses and tendencies and adjust the system to counter that. But let’s not sit here and act like there’s some major philosophical difference between running power vs counter. We may use one more than the other in one game, but those are both “installed” prior to the season.
Nobody comes into practice in week freakin 4 and the coaches go “okay guys, today we’re going to learn power and try that out this week.” That’s not how it works. Again, tweaks and adjustments are made throughout the year. New plays are added based on what the coaches see. But they’re not still installing an offense 1/3 of the way through the season.
September 26th, 2021 at 10:49 PM ^
So in a game where the QB only keeps 1 time and it happens to be when they were blitzing and had a person for each the RB and the QB are you saying that they are all just missed reads?
and if the whole offense isn’t installed what is your theory on why they run a particular run play 0 times one game and 10+ the next? Surely it’s to disguise to opponents what’s installed right? So then the question is when the house is on fire like it was Saturday should they for lack of a better term ‘abandon the game plan’ and only worry about calling what works and forget game to game disception?
September 26th, 2021 at 11:04 PM ^
Uh, yeah. QBs who aren't runners by nature don't want the wear and tear. Unless it's absolutely necessary, they're going to give.
I'm not saying the whole offense isn't installed--you are. Teams run a play 10 times one game and 0 the next because of what they're seeing from the defense and it's how they intend on taking advantage of the look their getting.
Believe it or not, but coaches don't "hide" plays except for a handful. They either don't have the play in the playbook or they don't have the look they want to satisfy running it.
Michigan closed up shop at halftime and got stubborn. The coaches deserve to be criticized for calling a bad game. It's uninformed to believe that the offense isn't installed. They simply didn't take advantage of the space on the edges and the QB keeping on a zone read wouldn't be the answer for that anyway.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:14 PM ^
Quote- “possible explanation” meant that…possible explanation. I didn’t say I thought it wasn’t all installed.
It was a conversation starter based around what I thought some people may offer up.
September 27th, 2021 at 5:04 AM ^
I don't know if they called a bad game in so much as they stopped 'calling'. Very little variation in the second half, very poor coaching decisions in my opinion. Did they sit on the lead? Did they not want to show their hand? If that was the case then it was a total fail; I'm not a coach, but I cannot believe there is much to gain from getting so vanilla that it nearly cost us the game. Use game time to work on things!
September 27th, 2021 at 8:25 AM ^
"Michigan closed up shop at halftime and got stubborn. The coaches deserve to be criticized for calling a bad game. . " MGoManBall
If CM was rendered ineffective by the target hit, the coaches and medical staff warrant criticism for not protecting him by removing him from the game. JJM was available for substitution exactly in this type of scenario. The macho paradigm of "playing through injury" should not apply when it comes to possible brain trauma.
September 27th, 2021 at 9:50 AM ^
The reason they may call a specific run play 10 times one game and 0 the next is due to weekly game planning. The entire base offense is in. There is no doubt about that. Each week the staff looks at the opponent and may pull a few concepts out and insert a few new ones. Or, they may have to adjust the blocking rules on particular run concepts due to the front. That's why you can look slightly different week to week. If Cade isn't reading an unblocked 1st level defender, it's not because we haven't installed it. It's because he isn't supposed to. We aren't suddenly going to install that next week or the week after. For whatever dumbass reason, Jim/Gattis think leaving an unblocked DE and fake reading him is a good idea. It's not and never will be.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:09 PM ^
Most teams have their entire offenses installed in camp. From there, they make adjustments and add counters to.
I'm not so sure. I think teams only have their base offense installed in camp and they add to it each week.
I only played high school football so I don't know what it's like in a college program, but we broke camp with only 50% to 60% of our eventual offense installed. Our first two games were pure vanilla but we added new elements every week.
I'm willing to be educated on what colleges do.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:25 PM ^
In D3 college, we had our entire offense "installed" in camp but we all were to know the plays prior to camp starting.
In camp, it's not really an installation of the plays themselves, but the offense. Especially if you're going to have the plays signaled in by hand, signs, etc.
That's why it's hard for young guys who enroll in the fall to play their freshman year. They're tasked with learning plays, offense, everything. It's a tall task.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:39 PM ^
I think it's more likely that it doesn't exist at all more so than it's in the queue to be installed; and if it is in the queue still, then that is probably a worse indictment.
Everything we've seen the past three years under Gattis suggests that the quarterback is asked to make very few give/take reads, but the remaining structure of the play is designed as a read play. Michigan is basically a power run team that tries to create the perception that defenders are being read.. but defenses rarely pay for over playing the mesh point. It makes no sense whatsoever. Then you add in the element that Michigan doesn't use very much play action pass at all, despite being a heavy run team, and now basically you have an offense that doesn't make defenses pay for over pursuit or playing with bad eye discipline. It's basically boiled down to a pig in lipstick, and until we see otherwise, that's what I expect it will continue to look like.
September 27th, 2021 at 10:42 AM ^
September 26th, 2021 at 10:49 PM ^
Wait….is this 2019? Is Shea Patterson our qb? The only thing that baffles me is people expecting a different approach/scheme to games from year to year with the same coach.
September 26th, 2021 at 10:57 PM ^
I didn’t say I expect something different. It’s still the same and it’s irritating. I’m asking why is it that way? What do people think it is? Is it Josh, is it JH?
naybe you don’t think it matters and maybe it doesn’t. But don’t straw man me.
September 26th, 2021 at 10:51 PM ^
Aren't the snowflake threads still up? (And pinned)
September 26th, 2021 at 10:57 PM ^
We are 4-0. Would be great if the negative assholes would quit analyzing our problems and enjoy that fact and this team so far.
Tired of the weekend bitching. Unreal...
GO BLUE!
September 26th, 2021 at 11:02 PM ^
Not bitching just asking questions around what is actually coached in the room around an keepers and what the play calling strategy is going I to a game. Like is the whole playbook really open?
thanks for the name calling tho.
September 27th, 2021 at 12:19 AM ^
Oooof this isn't a bad OP but you insisting on arguing with everyone who thinks that it is makes the whole thread a pile of poo
September 27th, 2021 at 8:43 AM ^
He didn’t call you a name. He said you were a negative asshole.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:04 PM ^
I get the sentiment, but do you not know how the internet works? Nobody comes here to give a moderate and non-emotional take. Why would you come here expecting that?
September 26th, 2021 at 11:07 PM ^
You are so right. For that I am an idiot.
there must be somewhere on the internet where smart people congregate?
September 26th, 2021 at 11:09 PM ^
It’s just crazy to me that in all the coverage and fanfare around this program and it’s football team including all the tweets and literal journalists covering the team there is no reason explanation on these really important questions…..and i figure even someone like Sam Webb couldn’t tell people if he knew because he’d ruin his relationships. someone must have an idea tho?
September 27th, 2021 at 12:04 AM ^
Maybe football isn't as easy as "run the good play not the bad play"
September 27th, 2021 at 10:39 AM ^
You are correct in that you never hear the coaches asked specific questions like "why do you continue to run into an 8 man box?". Instead general questions are asked like: "how do you think your defense played?"
September 26th, 2021 at 11:08 PM ^
Good point. Really just venting after reading the dumb ass negative comments over the weekend. That garbage is getting old...
September 26th, 2021 at 11:11 PM ^
"that garbage is getting old"
Many people feel that way about how team plays, and how these coaches coach. You feel that way about those people.
The cycle continues every year.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:20 PM ^
We are 4-0. If you can't enjoy it, I recommend another hobby that you can. Perhaps being a Michigan football fan not for you.
September 27th, 2021 at 12:57 AM ^
Damone you've been around a while and yet you sound like a noob. This program does not measure it's success by how it performs in the early season against soft teams. It measures itself by how it performs against OSU, MSU, PSU, ND and any other Big Ten team playing well that year.
Have you not been around the last 15 years to witness the endless 4-0, 5-0 starts that end up 7-5 or 8-4 with thumpings at the hands of the teams we actually care about beating?
You're like the guy telling the gaming party to shut up and be happy after barely scraping by early zone content, before even facing the zone boss yet, when it's very clear they are going to get their ass handed to them.
Bottom line is we were out gained, out coached, and out played by Rutgers, who was a missed field goal and a fumble away from beating us. RUTGERS.
Worse, exactly what everyone expected to happen, happened. As soon as a team decided to key in on Michigan's 10 vs 11 rushing game (10 because we don't involve our QB for shit), the offense crumbled like the dinosaur that it is.
Just as it does, year after year after year, with the exact same offensive scheme, and the exact same sorry script over and over.
Rutgers' offensive schemes were so many eons more modern and creative than ours, involving an 11 vs 11 attack, that our offense not only didn't pass the eye test, but it was, as it always is once we get into the meat of the schedule, painful beyond measure to watch.
But feel free to smell those paper roses dude. Whatever happens, we know your toes will still be tappin.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:39 PM ^
Just wait for the next 8 weeks. Have the meds ready if needed.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:19 PM ^
I mean, yeah, in this young season a lot of world beating top 20 teams this season have looked the part and then proceeded to play like ass in a game. It's nothing new and something we should feel better about because we know it happens. But it wouldn't be so disturbing if we hadn't seen this script before under Harbaugh.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:30 PM ^
Don't worry. Your bitching about other people bitching cancelled out said bitching and now there is no bitching left.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:02 PM ^
Why would the offense not be installed?
Everyone, like the whole team, has been here for years. We arent running out freshman QB's, linemen, and WR's. Everyone is experienced, the staff has been here for years.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:04 PM ^
Ok so what you meant to say was. “I believe all the playbook is installed” I don’t disagree. Do you think they have the whole playbook open in every game?
it’s been charted and this is a trend most years that the first week we ran almost exclusively counters and ran no power then the next week that gets called. So even if it’s all installed they don’t call it. I was hoping someone had insight on who would make that call
is it common in cfb etc….
September 26th, 2021 at 11:05 PM ^
Guess that may not be the result here
September 26th, 2021 at 11:14 PM ^
Nobody has any idea. it's different from staff to staff.
Some coaches have an offense that they run, and they bring in an OC to run their system, Alabama does this.
Some coaches hire an OC to run the OC's system.
Sometimes the HC calls plays, sometimes the OC calls plays, sometimes they do it by committee.
It really is entirely dependent on the staff.
Nobody here has any idea. If we did, almost everyone here would know.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:05 PM ^
Why the fuck do we need YOUR opinion on what’s wrong as it’s own thread!?!?!?
There’s enough active threads bitching about the offense. Hope this gets nuked so a contribution with merit can take its place.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:06 PM ^
Meritful like your comment?
I was asking for the audiences opinion…. I only offered some ideas a a conversation starter….
September 26th, 2021 at 11:11 PM ^
A comment isn’t the same as starting a new thread so YOUR opinion gets highlighted above the HUNDREDS of voices saying the same thing in existing threads.
FFS Carl. Get a life.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:17 PM ^
A new comment in the snowflakes thread will get buried at this point and it’s hard to have a conversation.
you are the epitome of where i actually did err and think this could be a productive thread….
September 27th, 2021 at 9:53 AM ^
Agreed. I fucking hate snowflakes. It's Monday, how about we let people make threads about the specific stuff they want to discuss? If it doesn't interest you, you're free to move on. Cramming everything into one comprehensive thread seems like nothing more than a power trip.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:17 PM ^
Gattis is only capable of installing a "portion" of his offense by year three?? I mean, at some point you just gotta own up to the fact that the emperor has no clothes on folks.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:30 PM ^
Joe Burrow and Mac Jones are not know for running at all. But! They did split open a secondary with looking off Safeties, DBs and LBs. I think it's far more important to have a QB that can read defenses, and open windows to throw in to, by where he makes the defensive backfield players move to with his looks, than into than to have a QB that can run.
September 26th, 2021 at 11:32 PM ^
Yea except M never has recruited such a QB and if JJ is that, wellwearewaiting.gif
September 26th, 2021 at 11:45 PM ^
It would be nice to see some plays where, as the QB is walking up to the line, and reading the defense, to yell out an audible. Then, see him looking off the safety as he is dropping back, and then throw dart 25 yds downfield to the slot doing a post to where the safety just vacated.
Something like what Kurt Warner is diagramming in this. Well worth the watch:
September 26th, 2021 at 11:36 PM ^
Hand the keys to JJ and take the play calling sheet away from gattis and harbaugh.