MBB recruiting vs. rivals
Our squad is very young and we did sign a huge class last year. I believe that Wilson and Chatman were top 100 players and MAAR, Dawkins and Doyle were more of the 3 star sleeper types. Last year's class looks like they will be solid and appears to mesh well with our system to far. My concern is, how long can we continue to recruit at a lower level than our rivals and stay competitive with them? I'm of the opinion that we need to kick it up a notch in recruiting and I have a growing concern when looking at us strike out on nearly all the blue-chips last year and this year as well. We seem to be slipping on 2016 guys like Thornton and consistently get beaten out by the big dogs in college basketball for the big fish. Michigan is a top flight school with amazing facilities and a top flight staff. Michigan has sent 5 to the NBA in the past 2 years alone with 4 being 1st rounders. Michigan has rich championship basketball tradition. So why does it seem to be such a struggle in terms of basketball recruiting? What is this staff missing on the trails?
Michigan State has Austin Grandstaff who is a 4 star...Kyle Ahrens...who we recruited and a McDonald's All American in Deyonta comings in 2015. They are also fairly young and will lose only Trice and Dawson this year. Ohio State has 4 four stars and a 5 Star wing comitted in their 2015 class alone. They will likely suffer a lot of attrition with Russell leaving early and seniors departing but still will have Tate and Bates-Diop plus this huge class. Our 2015 class is barren at the moment unless you're including the D. Robinson transfer.
There is no real excuse or reason why we do not have at least one blue chip recruit for the 2015 cycle. You cannot completely whiff on a year of recruiting as we have essentially done thus far. Basketball fortune can swing very quickly and in order to sustain the high level of play that we have enjoyed, you have to crush recruiting every year. There are no fliers to miss a year of recruits. I'm wondering if there is an issue with our staff's ability to get the blue chips. Is everyone else dirty? I think there is a legitimate concern here and it one that I think we should discuss. I don't buy the narrative that Michigan just can't recruit with the big dogs. We aren't recruiting hard enough or well enough to do it. Other smallet schools still pull blue chips annually. We should be boxing other programs out and eating first in recruiting. We shouldn't be taking a backseat to these other programs. How do we fix this?
January 30th, 2015 at 10:10 AM ^
Please
January 30th, 2015 at 1:18 PM ^
I <3 ¶
January 30th, 2015 at 11:27 AM ^
We are seeing youth and injuries this year. All we can do is wait it out.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:15 AM ^
Block of Text....blinding
January 30th, 2015 at 10:15 AM ^
Just started watching The Office on Netflix...must say Dwight K Shrute is freakin hilarious.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:20 AM ^
January 30th, 2015 at 10:25 AM ^
Fact: Dwight Schrutte does not sleep and therefore it is physically impossible for him to be a sleeper.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:11 PM ^
I thought the Dwight character on the office was played by Tom Crean.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:24 AM ^
Ohio St is absolutely killing it on the basketball recruiting trail for 2015. They have 4* Grandstaff in the fold (who just dropped 50 points the other day) and just got a commit from 5* JaQuan Lyle who Sam Webb says is a college version of Penny Hardaway. Toss in 4* big Dan Giddens, speedy small 4* AJ Harris, and a beast of a PF in 4* Mickey Mitchell, and that's one helluva class.
Beilein is a great coach, but my goodness will Ohio St be tough to beat with that kinda talent. UM's players all look like 4-year guys who will steadily improve, but we're definitely fighting an uphill battle when OSU keeps bringing in classes like that.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:27 AM ^
I know OSU has been a top 10 program for awhile under Matta, but I don't understand why they have been killing us in recruiting lately, given our on court success, player development and facilities, all of which now equal OSU. How does Matta do it, and how can we can get some of that Mojo in AA?
January 30th, 2015 at 10:30 AM ^
I think there are two things: (1) Matta is far less picky in terms of character/fit than Beilein is. Beilein is hyper-focused on team buy-in and chemistry since it's important to him from a character standpoint in addition to the fact that it's important for the type of basketball his teams play. (2) I think Matta is just a better recruiter.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^
Do you have any proof with your character assertion with regards to Matta? If you do, I'll shut up.
I despise the whole "We're Michigan holier than thou" attitude when it comes to excusing any shortcomings with our sports programs against our rivals.
It's not like we're talking about Kentucky here where shady shit might happen.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^
Like I said, I think it's both character and fit. Character is probably less often, and fit more often, the reason that Beilein doesn't go after certain guys. He needs good passers with good court vision. There are some really good players out there who don't fit that bill.
As to character, one example (Eron Harris - granted he's an MSU not OSU guy) immediately comes to mind.
And, to be clear, I'm not saying OSU is shady or cheating. When I'm referencing character, I'm talking about guys who are teachable, who respect the coaches, who want to learn, etc. Those character traits allow Beilein to do his job better.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^
but do you honestly not see OSU as a place where "shady shit might happen".
You are no doubt familiar with the history of off-field/academic issues with the football program, and the culture of entitlement around that athletic department? The basketball program is not from a different planet.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:14 PM ^
Not nearly as much as I see Kentucky as a place where shady shit might happen. It's not like Michigan is exempt from this.
All our rivals can say the same exact thing about us.
"Michigan is one to talk considering the Ed Martin scandal they so like to sweep under the rug while thumbing their nose at other programs"
It's just a dumb critique in my opinion.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
a - that was over 20 years ago. OSU's issues are consistent. "I ain't come to play school" and Bennett's recent quotes show the attitude of student athletes at that school. You don't hear these kind of things from Michigan kids very often, if ever.
b - if you're going to apply the "what proof do you have?" criteria why are you not applying it for Kentucky?
I don't see that as a particularly dirty program. They are an NBA factory and that's an enormous selling point for a one-and-done player. They don't need to offer cash. Neither does Duke or Kansas or UNC. We're not talking about a Memphis or UNLV...
I get your point, but your execution is lacking.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:41 PM ^
The proof would be Calipari leaving eligibility scandals at every stop prior to UK. Matta? not so much.
January 30th, 2015 at 1:15 PM ^
It's equally legitimate to say Calipari hasn't been busted at Kentucky as it is to say Matta hasn't been busted at OSU.
At UK - the suspicion is with the coach. Calipari draws some question marks for sure, but he's been at Kentucky 6 years now and has about 10 years worth of players (under normal circumstances) and nobody has dug up any dirt on Kentucky bball under him.
At OSU - the suspicion lies with the institution. Tressell was thought to be clean for a long time too. OSU, as an institution, as an athletic department, warrants suspicion. Therefore Matta does too.
Both appear clean, but both warrant suspicion.
January 30th, 2015 at 1:36 PM ^
Thad is a shady cheater because Jim Tressel lied to the NCAA and Cardale Jones tweeted that he was upset because he had to go to class. Calipari, meanwhile, is not shady despite his wrongdoings at other schools because he now coaches at a school that does not need to cheat to win. Got it.
January 30th, 2015 at 2:07 PM ^
Neither school has been busted with it's current head coach.
Both situaitons warrant suspicion.
You can't pay attention to JUST the coach or JUST the school.
And yeah -- Cardale's comments are pretty telling about an attitude that is acceptable in OSU athletics.
January 30th, 2015 at 2:38 PM ^
Cardale Jones, an 18 year old freshman at the time, tweeted that he was upset that he had to go to class (what 18 year old in their right mind would be upset about having to go to class???), nearly got kicked off the team for not doing what he was supposed to do off the football field, and now has a 3.0 GPA.
Well, I guess if you can generalize the attitude that is acceptable in OSU athletics based off of one example, then I guess you are right. That is a pretty telling story.
January 30th, 2015 at 2:42 PM ^
the other examples that I cited.
I could get into this and list out the litany of examples where OSU athletes are entitled, spoiled, cheaters, skirting the rules, or other untoward behavior but whatever...clearly you are going to take whatever I say and inaccurately spin it into a strawman to argue with.
January 30th, 2015 at 8:09 PM ^
Cardale Jones, Adolphus Washington, Ketzenmoyer, the list goes on.
If you are an elite athlete at Ohio State, you don't have to take classes. They will cover for you. You get to hang out and just focus on your sport.
January 30th, 2015 at 2:09 PM ^
the decline in our football program and the constant positive attention OSU gets because of their program's success. It will be interesting to see if Harbaugh being on campus changes this perspective--even before the additional wins occur. I also don't think our Crisler Arena experience matches top flight programs---certainly Duke, Kentucky and even OSU, MSU and IU--when recruits are on campus.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:32 AM ^
Ohio State sort of gives their athletes the "Key to the City" so to speak. They have more of a "cool" factor in the eyes of some recruits and play more to the inner-city types much like Michigan State. Ohio State should not be out-recruiting Michigan in basketball but they are and badly.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:52 AM ^
on how to identify and land recruits, but I wonder if it might be time to adjust the "landing" part of the formula. Once we identify the right guys, maybe they need to be a little more agressive in pursuing them? Thornton basically said we slowed down or recruitment which I dont get at all.
When was the last time a top target committed to us while on a visit? We can't compete regularly with just the plan B and C guys.
Hopefully 2016 nets us a couple of our main targets or it could be awhile before this team is capable of regularly getting to the Sweet 16 and beyond.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:04 AM ^
I agree 100%.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:19 AM ^
has never really recruited at a high-level in the traditional Ohio State sense. Yeah, Mitch was a coup, but the guys that took us to the National Championship game were not the pick of the litter. Hardaway was a middling 3 star, Robinson was actually pretty meh when he signed(though his status as a recruit sky-rocketed based largely due to one awesome You Tube dunk), Stauskus had the eye of a few but nobody was fighting over him, and Burke and Levert were on their way to Ohio (NTO) before we came into the picture.
What I am saying is that "our guys" may be the guys we are watching right now. As George Blaha would say, "don't look now" but we have won 2 of 3 without Levert and nearly beat one of the best teams in the country. My standard response to an Aubry Dawkins contested 3 right now is "oh that's good" and Rawk is continuing to improve. Granted, Chatman is mess right now, but he just may turn into a different kind of player than we thought as opposed to a bad one. Also, our zone looks fairly terrifying to try to score against right now and I really think we have the personnel to run it for a few years right now with success.
I really see no reason to push the panic button at this moment. A "good" Beilein class may look nothing like a "good" OSU class.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:33 PM ^
but JB has landed a top 30 recruit each of the last 3 years at the time of their commitment:
McGary, Irvin and Chatman. Plus, GRIII blew up and ended up in the top 30, iirc. he also landed several other top 100 players to support those studs above. I would call that good recruiting. 2014 was weird in that we lost 3-4 players that I'm sure JB didn't think he would be losing, so he had to take flyers on last minute guys.
that said, he has a solid core of players now which can compete for the BIG title next year and beyond, but imo, he definitely needs to land either a big time scorer or point guard (top 30) in 2016 to be a top 10 team.
January 30th, 2015 at 2:16 PM ^
its pretty clear we didn't slow down on Thornton until he slowed down on us. Kinda like Izzo chasing Parker, Okafor and Jones. He put in an enormous amount of time and came up empty. For good or for naught, Beilein has learned/chosen to bail on players like Blackmon and Coleman when he perceived they were bailing on us. I suspect Beilein has become pretty good at reading recruits overthe years.
That said, I don't know why we don't get more top recruits particularly after pulling in Mcgary and GRIII and our success.--beyond what I suggested elsewhere.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:48 AM ^
I'll say it: OSU/MSU academics don't scare the elite recruits who have dreams of 1-and-done.
EDIT: Except MSU hasn't been producing many early entries as of late. Nevermind. You get my point, hopefully.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:25 AM ^
1 and dones don't care about academics regardless of where they go. They have to remain academically eligible in school for exactly 1 semester to play the season. It is not a concern either way. Duke is like, kind of a decent school, and they are churning 1 and dones on a yearly basis. It has nothing to do with it.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:02 AM ^
its called cheATING GUYS. 0$U CHEATS LIKE HELL
January 30th, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^
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January 30th, 2015 at 11:37 AM ^
It's pretty widely accepted that OSU boosters do a lot to "help" recruiting. It's also obvious that their adaptation of "admit nothing, deny everything and make countercharges," with the addition of "bitch long and hard about any punishment that is handed down" is working for them.
I'm just bummed that they are getting some one and dones before the UK boosters have swept them up.
January 30th, 2015 at 11:57 AM ^
And to anyone who is going to drop the "so what? JB can find another Burke or LeVert" .... Tate and Bates-Diop were heavily targeted very early on by JB, before their rankings skyrocketed a la THJ/GR3. These were his A-list targets and will very likely make great players. Beilein offered first, put in work, and got swooped by Matta.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:36 PM ^
i wonder if any competing coaches see who JB is targeting and perk their ears up.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:55 PM ^
MSU seemed to track a few guys JB went after or explored recently and you can't blame Izzo or anyone else for watching a guy with a proven eye for underrated talent.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:53 PM ^
Matta is a very talented recruiter, probably better than Beilein will ever be. But at the same time, we've seen his teams struggle mightily, in part, when those pieces don't work together.
People keep freaking out about recruiting even though Michigan gets "good enough" kids to compete most years, and as they develop they clearly become better players. That isn't a bad thing, and if it means Michigan gets blitzed every couple of years but is other consistent and competitive, I'll take it. I don't think OSU is overly shady (though you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think stuff went down there considering what we've seen under the football coaches), but just because they get some high-end recruits doesn't mean Michigan is cratering.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:18 AM ^
January 30th, 2015 at 10:19 AM ^
We all know he's a hell of a basketball mastermind. Unfortunately, 5 star guys just haven't bought into Beilein, his system, or Michigan.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:27 AM ^
January 30th, 2015 at 10:34 AM ^
Those guys were great and we nearly won it all with them. If you lose them early...you absolutely must replace them. The replacements need to come upon departure, not 2 or 3 years later. Otherwise, you suffer a large gap in production....like we are seeing this season.
January 30th, 2015 at 12:38 PM ^
chatman was a borderline 5*, depending on which recruiting site you go to.
January 30th, 2015 at 1:00 PM ^
Well, a large part of the drop is due to injuries, the stupid loss of McGary, Horford deciding he'd rather struggle in FL instead of A2, and some bad luck.
I'd rather Michigan replace high recruits with other high recruits in a perfect world, but in this world in which Beilein seems to have a particular player/standard he will accept and not delve too deeply into the seedy underbelly of CBB, I'm fine with him recruiting kids who can win in his system.
January 30th, 2015 at 10:28 AM ^
Beilein clearly recruited amazingly well in the 2012 class and did a good job in terms of the rankings in the 2013 class. The 2014 class wasn't quite as star-studded, but was okay.
I think people are more concerned about the multiple whiffs in 2015, when many expected a recruiting bump into OSU recruiting territory, and the lack of good feelings with top 2016 prospects. If 2016 is another year of "under-the-radar" guys, some people may get restless.