M Quarterback discussion on Jukes youtube channel
Hey folks - I just noticed a video on the Jukes youtube channel with the title: the most IMPACTFUL quarterback battle in college football.
Yes. they are talking about Cade vs JJ
I know this discussion has been beat to death on this board but I decided to post for anyone interested. I like to encourage outlets to have more B1G/ Michigan content.
Their discussion is in line with the consensus on this board, namely that Cade will probably start but at some point in the season, we will need to switch to JJ because he has the higher upside. They think JJ should start from day 1.
The host, Lucy, is an Iowa alum, so she will occasionally discuss the B1G. I think she has good insights and is pretty objective. She is still getting over the B1G conference championship game so please don't rub that in if you do check out the video and post a comment :-)
August 10th, 2022 at 6:23 PM ^
Everyone and their brother has concrete takes on college football this time of year. They can all go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. They paint everything in black and white and that’s not at all how it’s going to play out. For starters, Harbaugh is going to play JJ a lot more in the OOC, and playing time will go from there. Cade may start the season, but he’s also a great fall back position. The is the year that JJ gets his chance to show what he’s learned.
August 10th, 2022 at 6:33 PM ^
Y. I think JJ gets meaningful snaps from day 1, even if Cade does start.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:16 PM ^
Everyone and their Grampy has an opinion on Cade and JJ. :)
August 11th, 2022 at 7:24 AM ^
"They paint everything in black and white and that’s not at all how it’s going to play out."
Says the guy who then tells us exactly how it's going to play out...
August 11th, 2022 at 9:24 AM ^
The imagery of a flying fuck of a rolling donut might live forever.
August 10th, 2022 at 6:37 PM ^
I'm with Lucy--J.J. should start Day 1.
August 10th, 2022 at 7:54 PM ^
I'd like to be with Lucy. But J.J. has to prove himself. And I am totally cool, this year, with Harbs and co. futzing with them play to play. I just think we're really going to be good. Empty the playbook!
August 11th, 2022 at 9:36 AM ^
I just don’t know because I’m not there to watch camp.
But if JJ is playing as well as Cade and you think he has the higher upside then the soft non conference schedule gives you an opportunity to build momentum, establish yourself, and quiet some of the critics.
August 10th, 2022 at 6:41 PM ^
JJ starts. Cade transfers. JJ gets hurt and then we get stuck in a bad situation. This is the most Michigan outcome.
August 10th, 2022 at 7:17 PM ^
I'm going with "Davis Warren makes 3rd team All Big Ten."
August 10th, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
And then fans are going to call Harbaugh an idiot for running Cade away. We know how that song goes and I'm happy that Harbaugh ain't singing it.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:45 PM ^
Harbaugh doesn’t allow Cade to run.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:48 PM ^
Well, at least he has good reason for such a decision.
August 10th, 2022 at 10:49 PM ^
This is the way
August 10th, 2022 at 7:13 PM ^
The first three games should be an extended audition for who the starter will be when conference games begin. So have them alternating quarters in the first three games. Then against Maryland, they have whoever the leader is playing most of the game with the other getting a few drives. However, my realistic expectation is that it will be very similar to last season, with JJ getting 1 or 2 more drives per game.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:12 PM ^
So basically the Brady/Henson thing only instead of one QB playing the second half, they each get one quarter.
I don't know. It doesn't help that the opponents are Colorado State, Hawaii and UConn. You just aren't going to see much from playing that type of competition. Also, you have to think all three of those games are going to have extremely vanilla offense throughout with much more running than passing.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:27 PM ^
Completely agree that those first 3 games are glorified scrimmages. My thinking was that alternating quarters would allow each to play with the first team offense. Even with a vanilla offense, it would be very clear who the best QB1 is for the season. If it's too close to call, stick with what worked and adjust accordingly.
August 10th, 2022 at 10:17 PM ^
People claim Cade doesn't always see the third option even if it is the best option once a play has started. He sees a good option pre-snap and takes that. Seems like it is possible to tell even with lower defenses if one of the QBs can see the best option for a play even if it is the third read or not the best option pre-snap. I don't know how that would play out against a better opponent though. Maybe a better team could disguise something better that JJ could not decipher, but Cade could.
August 10th, 2022 at 7:43 PM ^
That's a nice clip. Nothing surprising, but intelligent, well-paced conversation about everyone's favorite topic (Michigan football) is awesome to find.
Does anyone really think Harbaugh is going to do something besides starting Cade and giving JJ increasing amounts of playing time until one of two things happen? Either Cade plays badly enough to warrant benching (unlikely IMO), or we fall too far behind a marquee opponent and need JJ's arm for a big comeback. But Harbaugh will hope for neither (and so will we). The incentives work.
I also think this works b/c JJ is insanely loyal to UM and seems content to play behind Cade this year as long as he's getting some playing time. And Cade is loyal enough to UM that he won't mind giving up several drives every game to JJ.
For all JJ's talent, I'm with Mean Joe - if we start JJ this year, we risk losing Cade to transfer (he probably needs another season to show the NFL before getting drafted). Lose Cade, and we're one injury away from a catastrophic season that kills our program's upward trajectory and brings back the "fire Harbaugh" crowd in earnest. Starting JJ may also mean his NFL departure is 1 year sooner.
None of that is okay given our QB depth chart behind them is 2 true freshmen who are major projects and 1 promising walk-on, and our next big fish is a 2024 prospect.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:58 PM ^
But what if JJ simply beats out Cade during fall practice? In that case, I think Jim starts him. Most scenarios assume that JJ and Cade will be about even during fall camp, in which case Harbaugh will do the sensible thing by starting the guy with experience and who won the B1G last year. And that is what Harbaugh should do in that scenario. So JJ needs to be observably better. And if he is not observably better, he should not expect to beat out the QB who just beat Ohio State and won the B1G. So, JJ, be great! And if not, Cade will start.
August 11th, 2022 at 2:23 AM ^
I generally agree. If JJ wins the job, you have to play him.
But as long as feelingsball criteria such as leadership shape how Jim and most coaches decide, "observably better" won't be enough.
JJ has to be great - dramatically better than Cade - to win this job.
August 10th, 2022 at 7:54 PM ^
Cade was a 4 star recruit and has done nothing but play exceptional while at UM. I'm much happier being in this situation than the Steven Threet and Nick Sheridan days.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:28 PM ^
exceptional is a bit of a stretch. I think cade is a Wilton 2016 —> 2017 situation. We were loaded in 2016. One of the three best teams of my lifetime along w 2006 and 1997. Speight seriously struggled in 2017 when it was on him to win games rather than not lose them. I don’t think it was a regression as much as it was a revelation. Two things to keep in mind. People were high on Wilton on 2016.
Delano Hill straight up said that they would have won it all with Rudock instead of Wilton. That’s telling. Fans were begging harbaugh to bench Speight in 2017 and there was a collective sight (not knowing the extent of the injury) when he went down against Purdue.
I think that we see the same thing with cade this year without a defense that will always keep you within striking distance at worst.
Cade does not have the tools to win a game. I know that people cite the sparty game. We had to bring in JJ in the redzone because we had one of the worst td redzone conversion rates in the nation with Cade in. Cade threw an ugly pick to seal the loss. Everyone put up career stats against states secondary last year. Hell, stroud put up better numbers than cade in like the first 20 minutes.
PFF said that Michigan’s passing game was depended on trick plays because cade isn’t a passing qb.
PFF:
(https://www.pff.com/news/college-football-way-to-early-top-25-rankings)
"MICHIGAN, I AM ONCE AGAIN ASKING YOU TO START J.J. MCCARTHY AT QUARTERBACK Michigan kept its perfect record intact with a blowout win over Northwestern, but that was no thanks to the performance from quarterback Cade McNamara. McNamara earned a 57.8 passing grade and led the Wolverines to negative expected points added (EPA) per pass play. The Wolverines signal-caller earned a 37.9 passing grade on passes thrown 10-plus yards downfield, as he completed just 1-of-6 pass attempts for 12 yards. At this point, it is painfully obvious that McNamara will not be able to carry Michigan to victory when they need to win through the air." (https://www.pff.com/news/college-football-week-8-takeaways-grades-advanced-stats-2021)
(https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2021/09/3-pff-grades-that-stood-out-from-michigans-victory-over-rutgers.html?outputType=amp)
August 10th, 2022 at 8:55 PM ^
I would agree that Cade is basically Wilton Speight, except that Cade has played way better than Wilton did except in one or two games. Cade looks like Wilton. But Cade is a very good quarterback, whereas Wilton was a good quarterback when his soul was not crushed by a hopeless O line. (Yes, no interceptions is a big thing! And Cade throws a sweet deep ball. He's good!).
August 10th, 2022 at 9:59 PM ^
Really good points.
The trick-play thing is especially interesting. If you look at the flea-flicker at Wisconsin, you see that Cade’s arm is sufficient. The throw is 50 yards in the air (from where he releases it) and in stride.
The problem, as Devin Gardner has said over and over, is there are big plays to be had that Cade doesn’t take. Maybe it’s out of caution; who knows why. One thing about the trick plays is they force the issue, since the target tends to be so wide-open.
August 10th, 2022 at 11:26 PM ^
The worst part of all the criticism regarding Cade's limitations is that the critics act as if Cade began 2021 as a seasoned starter. The young man had all of 1 start heading into last season.
His experience was basically a redshirt year, and one start in a truncated season. Yet, with his limited experience, and losing the best and most experienced receiver on the team, and playing in a cautious, risk averse, run oriented offense, he still quarterbacked the team to a Big Ten Title.
Joe Burrow, in his 4th college season, was very meh. In his 5th college season (2nd as starter), he showed dramatic improvement. Cade should start and get 90% of the snaps until/unless he falters badly.
August 11th, 2022 at 12:01 AM ^
even the most fervent cade fans will lean on his leadership and game management attributes. He is not Joe Burrow. Joe always had the tools. He also had two heisman finalists ahead of him on the depth chart.
cade is who he is, but let’s not act like he’s a generational qb held back by age and a playbook.
August 11th, 2022 at 10:54 AM ^
Stat Line for the season - 219/379 57.8%comp 2894yds 16td 5int
That's Joe Burrow as a 4th year Senior in his 1st year as a starter with 2 (TWO) First Round NFL Draft and All-Pro Wide Receivers on the field with him! With all his tools and weapons, what was holding him back as a first year starter?
Cade lost his best receiver in the first half of the first game of the season, had no other wideout with even 1/3 of Ronnie Bell's experience and still put up numbers similar numbers as Burrow as a first year starter. Cade may not be Joe Burrow, but how do we know? After his first year starting, who knew Joe Burrow would become Joe Burrow? Hell, Joe Burrow didn't even know he was Joe Burrow!
Recruiting Rankings 24/7 Composite
4* .9003rtg 280th Overall 8th Position
4* .9052rtg 268th Overall 7th Position
One is Joe Burrow, the other is Cade McNamara. So, who knew Joe Burrow was going to be Joe Burrow? Not every quarterback has it figured out in their first year starting. Sometimes the system isn't completely beneficial to them, sometimes they just have to work through learning the game, getting comfortable taking risks, building confidence. Joe Burrow developed into Joe Burrow. Cade should start, receive 90% of the snaps, and let's see the kind of quarterback he has developed into!
August 11th, 2022 at 9:45 AM ^
The thing is that after Speight went down in 2017 everyone realized why Speight was starting over O'Korn and Peters.
August 11th, 2022 at 10:41 AM ^
For all faults, we don’t beat Purdue without O’Korn and he was a mettulus dropped pick six away from beating osu.
Peters actually looked pretty good in 2017. He also proved himself to be a decent college qb at Illinois.
August 11th, 2022 at 9:38 AM ^
The thought of having a really smart sixth year senior leading the team someday is enticing.
August 11th, 2022 at 10:58 AM ^
Honestly, if we have a sixth year senior starting at QB, then we are doing something wrong on the recruiting trail. I want my QBs to be gone after their third or fourth year, because that means they were good enough to go to the NFL early. I would prefer1st rounders on this team, not UDFA QBs.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:28 PM ^
Cyan Cade all season long. Worked just fine last year.
August 10th, 2022 at 9:43 PM ^
Well, he's no Payton Thorne.
August 10th, 2022 at 11:08 PM ^
That's what I've heard as well...We'll see soon.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:42 PM ^
I would love to see JJ get a start in game 2 or 3. Just a game and gets most of the drives. That worked well for Cade. With such an easy schedule to start, let the kids have some fun.
August 10th, 2022 at 9:18 PM ^
Both JJ and Cade play this game for a much deeper reason than "fun". There is a profound joy that comes with competing well athletically. Here, both of these young men find joy.
It is my best guess that Coach Harbaugh and the staff have convinced JJ of the long-term value of a development plan to offer him the best chance of being the next "Mahomes". There is much "conundrum" that goes with executing such a deal but it seems as though JJ has the maturity to buckle in for the ride. It is a very good sign that to this point in time there have been no rumors or hints of discontent from the JJ camp.
JJ will get his opportunity. And when it arises it may take him a game or two to get his feet under him but when he does folks will likely be asking why the hell he was not playing a very long time ago. However, it is probably better to be put in a little too late than a little too soon. That said, I would love to seem this gifted young man play yesterday.
August 10th, 2022 at 8:53 PM ^
There's 2 problems with Lucy's argument. 1 -- Cade can't beat Ohio State. The problem is that Cade already has beat Ohio State. 2. Michigan will be behind Iowa at halftime and putting JJ in for the second half won't work. The problem is that Michigan cannot be behind a team that has scored 0 points with their putrific offense. You can't be behind a team that hasn't scored!
That said, I'm hoping JJ starts (and yet, I just watched a Cade highlight film, and he's very good...)
August 10th, 2022 at 9:37 PM ^
A good highlight film eh???
Cade is a terrific leader of this team...the issue is the plays he doesn't make and this does not make the highlight reels. It will be most interesting to see if he can improve at finding those non-check-down receivers when he has to come off of that initial read. QB is a very difficult position to play.
August 10th, 2022 at 9:44 PM ^
Fair comments. And let's not forget about Cade trying to wreck our running attack by refusing to pull. And also the points he leaves on the field by being way too conservative. But still, he is good. He throws a sweet deep ball and hits guys in stride on the shorter throws. However, ir he doesn't pull this year, I'll be screaming at the tv for Jim to play JJ.
August 11th, 2022 at 5:33 AM ^
“And let's not forget about Cade trying to wreck our running attack by refusing to pull.”
So Cade is trying to wreck our running game on purpose? He’s actually trying to do that?
JFC
August 11th, 2022 at 10:17 AM ^
I actually re-watched the Iowa game last night.
Iowa had chances to start out with a lead. They blew some BIG opportunities in the first half. That game looks VERY different if they punch it in on their first drive, instead of their RB missing a wide open throw in the end zone on a trick play. That would have changed the entire direction of the game. The momentum, the energy, the playcalling, etc.
We still probably pull away in the 2nd half, but Iowa was only down 11 at halftime despite a couple huge miscues on offense and defense
August 10th, 2022 at 10:09 PM ^
It continues to amaze me that the thing left out of all these discussions is that whomever wins the starting job is always one hit away from being out of the game, and in some sad cases, the season. I have to imagine the coaching staff, at least, reminds these guys that aren't pleased about being #2. If you're JJ, and when Cade wins the job, you have to be standing ready, helmet in hand (or on), ready to sprint out after almost any play. And vice versa.
Cade had a great 2021. And JJ is talented as hell. IF JJ were to come out the starter, I have to believe Cade is ready as hell to deliver, the second JJ comes up limping. There are so many Wally Pipp potential situations here. Every program of this caliber has to have that 2nd guy there, ready to go. Next man up, right? Football is a rough sport.
August 11th, 2022 at 2:25 AM ^
Even more amazing when you consider that Harbaugh has had a number of seasons at UM go off the track because of an injury to QB1. With the biggest game always at the end of the season he has to get through the season w 2 well-prepared and relatively healthy QBs to even have a shot.
August 11th, 2022 at 9:46 AM ^
This is the thing that I think the transfer portal is really going to hurt. If stroud gets hurt at OSU they have no experience behind him. If Ewers gets hurt in Texas, they have no one because everyone left when Ewers came in. Looking at the QB breakdown for the B1G Alex did, how many of those teams are dead if the starter gets hurt? MSU, Nebraska, Wisconsin, OSU, PSU... all of those teams' seasons are in serious jeopardy if the starter gets hurt... we are not currently in that position, and I hope Harbaugh and the coaches emphasize that point to both JJ and Cade.
August 10th, 2022 at 10:50 PM ^
Whichever qb’s dad bought the best pr firm to blast comments on this blog will start.
The qb with worst pr firm will get trolled and not start.
August 10th, 2022 at 10:52 PM ^
IMO, they are downplaying JJ’s role in September. I think this QB rotation, for better or worse, will resemble Henson and Brady in ‘99. They’ll both get a lot of meaningful snaps.
August 11th, 2022 at 9:35 AM ^
Having watched 99 in person this is a terrible scenario and cost Michigan the game against Sparty that year as Henson got down 3 scores and Brady could not get them back in the 2nd half.
Whomever wins camp wins the starting job. This is particularly important to your O-Line and Receiving corps who need the leadership and repetitive chemistry.
August 10th, 2022 at 11:06 PM ^
This is just plain rubbish and adds no relevant comments, basically looking for subscribers.
I've always been in the JJ camp but I believe in Cade too and he has been a winner at every level. The subtle digs on Harbaugh are pointed evidence they are butt hurt from the Championship game.
August 10th, 2022 at 11:07 PM ^
Dang near every single "expert" and "superfan" said the same thing in 2021. There wasn't any possibility that Michigan could beat osu or win the big ten with Cade. A switch to JJ had to be made if Michigan was serious about 2021.
We had the same discussions that superstar Dylan McCaffrey needed to start instead of Shea (how's Dylan doing? Haven't heard how N. Colorado has treated him), and that superstar Brandon Peters had to start instead of Speight.
I really hope JJ is the real deal, but can we stop anointing hall of fame status without any real merit. The kid made a couple spectacular throws and a couple real bone head decisions as well.. mixed in with decent QB in-between. He's shown promise, but I need to see him consistently better... 7 for 17 against Georgia wasn't it.