Importance of downfield passing in our offense?
I'm not intimately familiar with how RR's offense works other than I believe it to be considered a 'run first' offense, correct?
Anyways, my understanding is that a large part of the offense is predicated on getting to the ball out to make plays in space. I don't have the numbers, but the number of (completed) 15+ yard passes last year had to be extremely low vs. our historical average. This is to be expected since the type of offense we run now is very different to what pro-style offense we've run in the past.
My question is this - based on our QB ability, does the lack of a downfield threat significantly hamper our ability to run our offense? Can we still manage to be successful offensively?
My current interpretation is that this offense may be significantly hampered if the QB lacks one of the following two:
1) A 'competent' downfield threat
2) Speed
2008 Nick Sheridan had neither. Tate seems like he has #1. Denard has #2.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:18 PM ^
I think both Tate and Denard have 1 and 2. Both Tate's speed and Denard's arm are wildly underrated, but becoming less so as practices continue.
Also, I think our downfield passing game will be fairly extensive, more so than a lot of people think. We have a number of downfield threats at receiver, and I think both QBs will be able to get those guys the ball. It might not be like some years past, but I still expect to see a number of downfield passes, especially when opposing defenses cheat up on our dominant run game.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:20 PM ^
I think our offense still is capable moving without a real ability to stretch the field. We were able to move the ball fairly well in a few different games later in the season, albeit against weaker defenses such as Minnesota and Purdue. While more "space to make things happens" is available when stretching the field, I think we did a decent job of trying to get the ball to people "in space" last year. We still have the ability to do misdirection and horizontal stretch passing plays to open plays up.
I think the inability of the OL to block was the bigger key. Even if our guys could have launched deep balls last season, they didn't have time to let the play develop. They eventually were hurt, making them less capable of the long pass once we had our OL settled.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:27 PM ^
I think your spot on with this post
August 25th, 2009 at 7:57 PM ^
I agree with your post also. Although being able to spread the field downfield can help us out immensely, we don't need to work that way. I think we will be much more capable of getting the ball thrown deep this year, though. I definitely agree with the idea of stretching the field laterally with misdirection, too. The OL is a big key to the game, and the offense will be much improved solely based on that fact.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:26 PM ^
I don't think you can look at last year as a typical year for the Rodriguez offense. Threet was the better down field passer, but being "better" than Sheridan isn't saying much. On top of that you have arguably their best wide receiver out for the whole season (Hemingway) and an offensive line that had an inability (due to lack of experience) to hold their blocks to even allow for down field passes. Just an all around shit-storm of NOT GOOD ENOUGH to allow for it.
This year you have hopefully a QB with better skills + Hemingway + a much improved line = droppin' bombs.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:27 PM ^
In my hazy memory of searching out tibbits of fact on the WVU offense right after Rich Rod was hired, a lot of WVU fans loved the Pat White style offense that was in place but wanted just a few more deep balls thrown per game. Back then I read that as his running based offense was so successful that downfield deep passing wasn't truly needed to win games. Pat White and WVU never really threw a high number of deep balls, but wins piled up for them. With that said, it's a different set of personal and a different set of defenses to face.
As a slight aside, I've always used the term 'spread offense' to mean that every square inch of the field was being used and hence needed to be respected by the defense. A run heavy spread team can be scary good since that will tend to just make passing (and deep passing) easier.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:27 PM ^
i could be COMPLETELY wrong because i have little to no experience or knowledge of RR before M but it seems like his offense is designed more of a horizontal game than a vertical game. You'll have enough vertical passing to keep people honest and take advantage of the cheating up on the defense but its more about facilitating your skill guy's ability to run wild and make people miss vis a vis all the slot ninjas.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:35 PM ^
its pretty freaking important. We should be able to get by against teams with less talent, but we're going to struggle against top 25 teams if they aren't worried about getting beat over the top.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:40 PM ^
If the QB isn't a serious running threat, then you will need to stretch the field some to create more open space. Last year, defenses didn't respect the deep ball so they were cheating up. This made short passes and running the ball much tougher. With a QB that's a significant running threat, you can still beat a defense that loads upfront (i.e. Georgia Tech and old Nebraska teams).
Take with a grain of salt, I'm not a football coach...I just play one on TV.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:45 PM ^
I'm not a coach either, so I'll preface this with I could be very wrong, too.
I think the two teams you reference there are a totally different animal anyways due to the option schemes. I've read before that many times Paul Johnson of GT just runs a pre-written script of plays regardless of what the defense throws at him. It is more about the setting up of a defense through breaking tendencies and taking advantage of those pressed up defenders.
It's not so much that their QB is a rushing threat as much as it is a well executed and deceptive play. Threet probably could run an option, although not as smoothly as a Nesbitt. I could see it being very Nebraska like, but they too also had dominating offensive lineman who could bulldoze even the best D-linemen in the country.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:02 PM ^
I think the staff did try to run some down field passing stuff last year, but it just wasn't very successful obviously. It wasn't just bad qb play, they had freshmen out there trying to read safeties on the fly on some of the 3 or 4 vertical stuff. That's just not an easy thing to pick up as a young college player, and they made some mistakes. They also did some other normal stuff: 12 yard curl with an out or "arrow" to the flats, smash routes on a full roll, some option routes on linebackers. They would run the curl with a wheel behind it instead of an out or even run a back on the wheel.(See MSU game, Minor and Moundros) They also tried to get Koger involved a lot towards the end of the season and did have some success with that. I think something you may see this year that they would run at WVU is more passing out of a speed option look. In the limited WVU games I saw, there were several times Pat White would start down the line out of the shotgun in a speed option look except pull up and spot a slot back 20 yards behind everybody. I guess my point is that the offense will still be run first, but the coaches will still throw down field, especially when they feel the personnel will execute correctly.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:07 PM ^
I think now that Hemingway is healthy this year we will have our vetical threat that we were missing last year.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:18 PM ^
RR's offense is predicated on getting the ball in space, yes, but it does not eliminate the downfield threat. Recently, RR has lacked a quarterback capable of consistently making downfield passes. Basically, like any good coach, he gears the offense towards the strengths of his personnel.
You wouldn't know it from last year, because we lacked certain strengths like blocking consistently, completing short bubble screens, completing downfield passes, consistently catching downfield passes, and securing the football.
The return of Heminway and hopefully the emergence of another downfield threat should help loosen up the secondary and make big plays more frequent. We shall see...
August 25th, 2009 at 8:47 PM ^
...we lacked certain strengths like blocking consistently, completing short bubble screens, completing downfield passes, consistently catching downfield passes, and securing the football.
In other words, we couldn't block, throw short, throw long, catch, or not fumble.
"But other than that, Ms. Lincoln, did you enjoy the theater?"
August 25th, 2009 at 8:59 PM ^
And that's how you get to 3-9.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:34 PM ^
One of the things about a passing game that bothers me is the ambiguous passing terms. I'm sure Michigan had many 15 yard passes last year, but in this case I think you meant passes that was thrown downfield 15 yards or more. Our qb always threw the ball 1 yard, then the wr/rb would run for 14 yards, so they are still 15 yard passes.
You are right, we did not throw the ball 15 yards or more since we probably didn't have an arm on the team that could throw it that far. I always thought the spread was all about figuring out which "short yardage" situation to use coupled with the option of a long play. It seemed like the defense could count on short yard situations and just had to figure which side to defend, the passes or runs to the left, right or the middle.
Once we have the blocking down, and the defense decides to play us close, we can make the defense suffer with a deep pass thrown. If the defense wants to defend the deep ball, then our run game will take advantage of it.
August 25th, 2009 at 9:13 PM ^
I watched 3 or 4 Florida Games last year and I am struggling to remember them throwing many over the top? A agree that we do not need to have the 20 yard passes down field to win in this offense.
August 25th, 2009 at 9:36 PM ^
You need to throw enough to make them respect the deep route. Basically, this forces a safety to pay attention to the wide outs running streaks down the field.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:09 PM ^
A downfield threat is much more important for Michigan than it is for West Virginia. West Virginia was able to run all over Big East teams because the level of talent in the Big East is not at the level of talent in the Big Ten. The style of offense is so different that it can be used to beat a talented team once, but I rather doubt that we will be able to run all over OSU year in and year out if they use their safeties against the run every time we play them.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:42 PM ^
This is dumb. You should feel bad about yourself for posting this.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:49 PM ^
I know, rite?
Also - why come Dick Rod doesn't understand that he's in the Big Ten?
August 26th, 2009 at 1:12 AM ^
The point is not that it is important to throw the ball downfield all the time. The point is that it is important to have the capability to do so. Simply having the threat to throw downfield opens up room to run. The point is that versatility is important.
I am not criticizing Rodriguez here. The fact that Hemmingway is being developed into a potential deep threat is proof that Rodriguez believes that having this dimension in the passing game is at least somewhat important.
August 25th, 2009 at 11:15 PM ^
The Big East is shoddy now. It wasn't before the best coaches got pillaged. The Big East more than held its own out of conference especially against the SEC while RR was doing well there. You can't rag on their level when they go 5-0 in the postseason and upset all their higher ranked opponents. Rodriguez has mentioned before that wide receivers need to block so that they can get passes. That means they had (probably still have in many ways) a horizontal passing and running game that they'll pound the ball with conservatively until they bring 1 and 2 safeties down in the box (happened more than once at WVU) and then they go over the top, as evidenced by the Fiesta bowl when late in the game they threw a long TD to tito gonzalez. They're gonna play to their strength, running the ball, and then take what they can get downfield, but as has been mentioned historically his teams execute so well they don't need to throw the long ball as more than a changeup or when the defense is uncompromisingly putting 9 in the box. It takes execution to go up 28-0 on georgia with your freshmen slaton and such if i recall correctly. He didn't need the long ball to win or win big, but he has it ready for when the margin is forcing the defense into desperation.
OSU is better than the Big East is now. It could be better than the Big East was then (I remember OSU backing into a certain championship game after WVU choked it up). Rodriguez doesn't need the long ball but he'll use it if he can get away with it, and he'll have it ready when the defenses think they have him solved. Amusingly you could go back to 1969 and see michigan run it down OSU's throat in less imaginative ways than we'll have now. I thought the Big Ten was a physical running conference? there's no reason you can't still be successful doing what you love.
August 25th, 2009 at 11:30 PM ^
This is the long form of my argument.
August 26th, 2009 at 2:13 AM ^
For my counter-argument, I'm going to look at the 2007-2008 season, as it is arguably the most successful season for the Big East as you have already noted. First of all, Ohio State had 10 players from that team (thus far) picked in the NFL draft. Cincinnati led the Big East in draft picks with eight, most of whom came in the later rounds, although to their credit, seven played defense (4 DB). West Virginia, Rutgers and Louisville had had six, seven, and seven respectively*. While producing NFL picks is by no means the only measure of talent on a team, it is rather notable. Furthermore, five of Ohio State's NFL-ers were on the defensive side of the ball. West Virginia had two (one of whom was Ryan Mundy), Rutgers had one and Louisville had none. The difference of elite talent here, at least, is clear, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
Also, when addressing the bowl record, I feel that it should be noted that the Big East plays much later in the season than most leagues, unlike the Big Ten. This undoubtedly helped Big East teams in the postseason. I will not dispute that the Big East did field good teams while Rich Rodriguez was at West Virginia, but I do feel that there was less talent in the league, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
My main point, however, is one you already alluded to when noting that a downfield threat is necessary to prevent defenses from overloading the box. This is my thought exactly. Everyone was able to overload the box and commit most of their resources to stopping the run last year because we were unable to field a competent downfield threat last season. In fact, looking at the 2007 West Virginia-Pitt game, where West Virginia played themselves out of the National Championship, the inability of West Virginia to throw the ball resulted in their defeat to a vastly less talented Pitt team. West Virginia managed to go 9-16 passing (not terrible), but for only 79 yards. This allowed Pitt to commit all its resources to stopping the run and cost West Virginia a National Championship berth. Incidentally, in 2008, West Virginia went 8-2 (not counting FCS Villanova) in games where they completed at least one pass over 20 yards (averaging 23.1 points per game), and 0-2 in games where they didn't (averaging 8.5 points per game). Although Bill Stewart was coaching, he used the same system. Rodriguez would probably have done a better job, but then again, Rodriguez actually used the deep ball while at West Virginia. In fact, in 2007, West Virginia completed at least one pass over 20 yards in every game except for Mississippi State and Pitt.
*Actually, Connecticut produced six NFL picks (3 defense) as well during that period. Sorry about that. It still underscores my point though.
August 26th, 2009 at 9:38 AM ^
"In fact, looking at the 2007 West Virginia-Pitt game, where West Virginia played themselves out of the National Championship, the inability of West Virginia to throw the ball resulted in their defeat to a vastly less talented Pitt team."
I'm pretty sure Pat White's broken thumb, like 4 fumbles and 3 missed FGs contributed a LOT more to that loss than some inability to throw the ball.
August 26th, 2009 at 12:48 AM ^
This is what happens when a qb is incapable of completing a forward pass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzrn06hyX-o
That hurt me more than it hurts you, believe me.