Fumble vs Incomplete pass: what's the rule?
When JJ was pressured in the 3rd quarter he was hit as he was throwing and it resulted in a fumble that Edwards(?) recovered near the goal line. His arm was moving forward but Klatt said the same thing I was thinking: it was a backwards pass so it wouldn't matter if his arm was going forward.
But I've been thinking about it more... was it definitely a backward pass? You can't go by where the ball lands. Think about all the times a qb is hit throwing forward, properly called incomplete, but the ball actually lands behind him.
So what's the rule on this? It can't just be a judgment call where the ref *thinks* it was a backward or forward pass on something that's essentially lateral.
I could probably look up the rules but this might be something others are wondering too. Also I'm lazy af 🤷♂️
October 1st, 2022 at 4:46 PM ^
Looked like a backwards pass to me.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:04 PM ^
Ok i know this was a backward pass in this game. This question is more of a curiosity based on "what if" and I worded it poorly.
let me reframe: what if it was a lateral? How is that determination made? Normally the qb isn't hit and you tell the forward/backward pass by how the ball travels. But when the qb is hit then path of the ball is skewed. So in that case, when there is a lateral pass by the quarterback and his arm is moving forward when he is hit, how do you know if it's a fumble or an incomplete pass?
October 1st, 2022 at 5:07 PM ^
Whether the quarterback is hit or not is irrelevant. The question is: where did the ball land in relation to the line of scrimmage? At or behind the line of scrimmage makes it a live ball.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:10 PM ^
You can definitely have an incomplete forward pass that lands behind the los
October 1st, 2022 at 5:34 PM ^
Can you provide an example where the ball isn't blocked/tipped/deflected, etc.? I excluded that from the analysis because that didn't happen in this example.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:37 PM ^
Los is Michigan 20. Qb drops back to Michigan 13 and throws laterally. The released ball falls incomplete at the Michigan 15. That is behind the los but not a fumble it is an incomplete pass
October 1st, 2022 at 6:36 PM ^
Of course! My thinking was very obtuse on the subject. Ty.
October 1st, 2022 at 6:00 PM ^
Screens, for starters. Line of scrimmage is completely irrelevant, it’s based on where the QB is when he throws the ball. If the ball goes forward from where he’s standing, it’s a forward pass. If it goes further back than where he’s standing, it’s a live ball.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:11 PM ^
There was a game last week where it wasn't grounding because the QB was hit while throwing. I assumed that if a QB is hit then the direction the ball goes and where it lands no longer matters.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:14 PM ^
See this is along the lines of what I was thinking!
October 1st, 2022 at 5:49 PM ^
This is not true. If the ball leaves the QBs hands and takes a direct (untouched) route to a spot on the field behind where it was released, it is a fumble. Full stop.
Doesn't matter if he's "throwing" it, lateraling it, chest passing it, dropping it, etc.
The only reason it wasn't grounding in the scenario you're talking about is that being hit absolves the quarterback from having to pass it in the area of one of his players but it still has to go forwards to be an incomplete pass. If it goes backwards, it's a fumble.
October 1st, 2022 at 10:36 PM ^
It did not matter only because it went forward...and, I believe, it hit a defensive player. That play my end up causing a rule change. Otherwise, an "incomplete" lateral/backward pass is basically the same as a fumble no matter where it happens relative to the LOS
October 1st, 2022 at 6:02 PM ^
The line of scrimmage has nothing to do with it. Was it released backwards the QB? Lateral or pass it still was backwards and hit the ground. Fumble
October 1st, 2022 at 7:25 PM ^
I'm doubling down on this against all you haterz😜.
I'm now convinced it wasn't a fumble. I researched the nfl rule book which says this (and I'm assuming college is same but maybe not?):
(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him, causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else
And I rewatched the play, where JJ is on the M 15 and the intended receiver Edwards is on the M 19 four yards Forward.
So I don't think it's so cut and dried. Yeah, even I thought this was a fumble live. But was it really? Convince me otherwise you know-it-alls (/tongue in cheek). It seems everyone saying it's definitely a fumble is saying that if the ball goes backwards is a fumble full stop. But examples have been raised here where that's just not the case and the rule book excerpt explicitly states otherwise
October 2nd, 2022 at 12:15 AM ^
That is correct about getting hit while your arm is going forward and it lands behind you. It is incomplete. In this instance, I thought the ball was already coming out of his hand as he was trying to throw it. Just my opinion.
October 1st, 2022 at 4:46 PM ^
I'm also too lazy to look it up. But it looked like both his arm and the ball were pointing backward when he released the ball. In other words, there were no extenuating circumstances.
October 1st, 2022 at 6:33 PM ^
In a Lions game a few years back, they got to Farve and spun him around while he was throwing. He threw it backward like 20 yards and the Lions scooped and score, but the refs said it wasn't a fumble because Farve "intended to throw it forward."
Pretty sure college has the same/similar rule.
October 1st, 2022 at 6:54 PM ^
Yes! This is great insight. I think it all comes down to whether the referee judges a ball to be intended as a forward pass or not. Which I guess would make it not reviewable?
October 1st, 2022 at 8:11 PM ^
Sounds like the NFL's "when in doubt, screw the Lions" clause was invoked.
October 1st, 2022 at 7:55 PM ^
The extenuating circumstance is when he started his throwing motion and his arm started moving forward, his arm and the ball were pointing towards Edwards 4 yards upfield. It was only because of the hit that momentum forced the trajectory to be backwards
October 1st, 2022 at 4:46 PM ^
It was definitely backwards.
October 1st, 2022 at 4:47 PM ^
Klatt was correct. You can't rule a forward attempted pass unless the ball is coming forward.
See, e.g., Rees, Tommy.
October 2nd, 2022 at 12:52 AM ^
Not sure this scenario, amazing as it was, applies. Rees never had the ball in his hand going forward, he literally just lost his grip on the ball, popping up in the air, before he went to throw it hence the fumble, direction didn't enter into it.
October 1st, 2022 at 4:47 PM ^
It’s not hard. If he throws the ball backward, it’s a fumble…period. There are no scenarios where the ball leaves the QBs hand with the ball traveling backward, and is an incomplete pass.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:26 PM ^
So if a qb is trying to throw a bomb 40 yards downfield, his arm is moving forward but he gets hit and the ball gets jarred loose and lands behind him. Is that a fumble?
i thought it was an incomplete pass because arm was moving forward. This would answer my question
October 1st, 2022 at 5:41 PM ^
If he is trying to throw a bomb downfield and the ball lands behind him then his arm was not moving forward with the ball in his hand. That is physically impossible unless the ball is deflected.
if the ball goes behind the QB, backwards, it is a fumble. Unless it is deflected backwards.
October 1st, 2022 at 7:42 PM ^
Ok let's pick an example that physics make more plausible. The qb is throwing an out, his arm is moving forward towards the target on the sideline, but he gets blasted from the side and the momentum turns his body so that when there is a release the ball goes backwards.
It's not "physically impossible" for a forward throwing motion towards an upfield target to be incompatible with the ball moving backwards if they're hit
October 2nd, 2022 at 10:19 AM ^
By rule, in that scenario, the ball landed behind where the ball was thrown from and is a fumble.
The same how some sideways screen passes end up landed 3 inches behind where they're thrown and are a fumble.
The ball must land in the positive direction of where the QB threw it (meaning that if he's spun around, the positive direction is behind him).
October 1st, 2022 at 4:48 PM ^
Does intent matter? It seems if it goes backwards it is a live ball,
October 1st, 2022 at 5:46 PM ^
But what about this from the rule book (which I did end up looking up cause I'm too curious now lol):
(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him, causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else
so is it up to the ref to determine "if the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass"? It's almost always very clear. In this case I think it's clear it was a backward pass. But what about that scenario where it's hard to determine on a lateral pass
October 1st, 2022 at 5:05 PM ^
The ball went backwards, so if it was a pass, it was a backwards pass and the ball was live. It looked to me that his hand was empty when his arm went forward, so I thought it was a fumble. Either way, it's a live ball. I'm glad the Wolverines recovered.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:29 PM ^
I think OPs point is the ball wouldn't have gone backwards if he wasn't hit.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:35 PM ^
That doesn't matter though.
October 1st, 2022 at 6:54 PM ^
Per the OPs later post
"(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him, causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else"
So INTENT is what matters. I don't remember enough of the play to say for certain but I think there was nobody to the side of him so forward was intended.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:24 PM ^
Backwards pass = fumble unless I'm mistaken.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:26 PM ^
Klatt seems to be all over the place with his commentary at times. Especially when it comes to refs. We seemed to benefit from some marginal calls today but that shit seems to kinda even out - hopefully. If you are a DB and grab a receivers chest pad for any amount of time when a pass is in the air it's gonna get a flag. No matter what Joel thinks.
October 1st, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
Agree with you on the commentary on Klatt. I generally like this crew, but I pick up on same
October 1st, 2022 at 5:31 PM ^
ANY ball that travels backwards is a live ball. Whether passed overhand, underhand, fumbled, wind blown, etc......the ball is live.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:33 PM ^
Uhhh that ball was clearly out of his hand and a fumble.
October 1st, 2022 at 5:49 PM ^
It was definitely the correct call. My only issue on the play was that it clearly looked like Edwards first possessed the ball at the 6 but his momentum took him closer to his own end zone. Then, they spotted the ball at the 4. It ended up not mattering
October 1st, 2022 at 7:19 PM ^
But I've been thinking about it more... was it definitely a backward pass? You can't go by where the ball lands.
You especially can’t go by intentions…
October 1st, 2022 at 7:51 PM ^
Something something tuck rule.
October 1st, 2022 at 7:44 PM ^
Are you the goober in the Reddit game thread who refused to believe me on why this was called a fumble and Petras throwing a pass 5 yards past the LOS was not?
October 1st, 2022 at 7:48 PM ^
No but it sounds like me and that person would have a fun time being a pain in the ass to each other ;)
October 1st, 2022 at 10:07 PM ^
Any call where the ball goes backward while the QB is throwing the ball and is ruled not a fumble is the wrong call. The call today was 100% the correct call.
October 2nd, 2022 at 2:25 AM ^
I think the OP is correct. I’m surprised we didn’t see a review or that Harbaugh didn’t issue a challenge. Unless JJ’s arm was not moving forward or he lost control of the ball before his arm moved forward. I’d like to see slow motion replay like seen during a review.
Perhaps this will be talked about on the next MGoBlog podcast.
October 2nd, 2022 at 10:22 AM ^
A good example is when a QB turns and faces the wrong way and pitches the ball back to the RB.. that is not considered a pass, that is a fumble if dropped. The ball must land in the positive direction when thrown over hand or underhand. If the qb is facing the wrong direction, the positive direction is behind him.
October 2nd, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
Otherwise, a QB would just "pass" the ball to the RB on a pitch everytime, so that it'll be incomplete if it's dropped.