Football.....CTE and Youth football
In the journal Radiology today, an imaging study shows that players ages 8 to 13 who have had no concussion symptoms still show changes associated with traumatic brain injury.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/10/football-kids-heads/504863/#
Edit: I am fortunate to have lunch on Mondays with a College Football Hall of Fame Coach who agrees there really is no need to put helmets on kids this young. All of the fundamentals of the game can be taught without them.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:20 AM ^
This thread again.
October 24th, 2016 at 4:18 PM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 10:22 AM ^
Will not exist in 25-30 years. It'll be some version of flag football/rugby. No idea how it'll work or what changes will be made, but parents are going to slowly phase their kids out of the sport as more and more of these studies come out.
There's just too much inherent risk in the game now. How often did players retire at 23, 24 years old in the olden days of the NFL? Now, it seems to be a daily discussion and players have so much evidence at their disposal. And do you blame them for leaving early? They end up spending their adult life with dimensia, disease, and whatever infliction you can think of.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:25 AM ^
what a hot take
October 24th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
Old bit.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:35 AM ^
There will still be football, but you won't be seeing many middle class kids playing it.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:48 AM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 11:56 AM ^
There is no question our curent generations live with little need to no "need" be tough.
Combat seems to be the only reason people are okay with some violence. The last massive "land war" was roughly 50 years ago (Vietnam) and those vets are slowly dying off as is their influence. There is no "need" for Americans to be tough anymore or to put there children in the slightest harm's way. We will let other people do that.
Then, those other people will eventually be tougher than us. Historically, that has been a problem for cultures in power.
I just think that people will realize that we are being a little too overly-concerned about these things before it is too late and come up with some reforms for the game. We have done it in the past. It will always be a tough game and sometimes it is okay.
FYI - A good read: http://www.history.com/news/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-football
October 24th, 2016 at 12:04 PM ^
Sarcastaball?
October 24th, 2016 at 10:29 AM ^
I could have told you that repeated collisions between two developing brains would cause brain trauma.
The only people who don't seem to get it are the media and CTE deniers who think the only way brain trauma can be caused is by getting a concussion.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:50 AM ^
But I dunno, maybe the whole thing is rigged.
Now, I'd agree that many in football denied it for a long time in an effort to save their own bacon. I'd argue there are still people that outright deny it, and many more that are leery of the conclusion that "football is bad" (I'm admittedly in that group). But certainly, in the past half decade or so, the media has been very willing to provide this sort of information - at least to the degree that it can be easily digestable by your average reader.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:51 AM ^
I say "toh-may-toh" you say "repeated-collisions-between-two-developing-brains-would-cause-brain-trauma." Let's call the whole thing off!
October 24th, 2016 at 11:11 AM ^
The media reports it but MSM latched onto the word concussion as the end-all be-all of brain trauma.
That's where all these people come from who think that cheerleading and girls soccer is just as dangerous as football because they think the only way to damage a brain is to get a concussion and reported concussion statistics say those sports are higher.
October 24th, 2016 at 11:00 AM ^
The NFL denies it for so many reasons. I'd bet next contract go around the players ask for a significant pay increase in caps and league minimum.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:38 AM ^
Thanks for posting this article. As the father of an 8 year old who is in his first season of tackle football, I appreciate any and all info I can get on this matter.
The one thing I wish these articles did more though is put the actual numbers out there from these tests. Instead of just saying "we found changes that correlate with head trauma" can you tell us the percentages? Or are we to assume that every single player on that team had changes to their brain structure after the season? This is what frustrates me
October 24th, 2016 at 10:39 AM ^
This is the first real summary I've seen about CTE's in the youth sports and an actual study done. Most of it has been NFL-related.
October 24th, 2016 at 10:41 AM ^
And unfortunately, we can't track this sort of thing as these kids grow, but it would be interesting to know the actual impact of this. "Changes that correlate with head trauma" don't necessarily result in kids being negatively impacted from their time playing youth football. I'd guess one of the difficult things there is how do you actually determine someone was negatively impacted directly being of playing youth football instead of something else, and that makes performing a study on such a thing difficult.
October 24th, 2016 at 11:20 AM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 11:35 AM ^
They've studied the brains of hockey enforcers. Derek Boogaard and Bob Probert had it. Rob Frid had signs of traumatic brain damage while he was still playing in the OHL. You just hear about it more regarding football because the sport is much, much more popular.
October 24th, 2016 at 11:57 AM ^
I wouldn't use Bob Probert as an example for any health argument. The guy was a nut on and off the ice. Vast majority of hockey players don't wildly check like he did or get punched in the face every night.
October 24th, 2016 at 4:07 PM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 11:12 AM ^
Can't see the point of organized tackle football at that age. It's just another stress activity that's probably more for the parents than anyone. Touch football in someone's yard will give kids the fundamentals they need and will be more fun.
October 24th, 2016 at 2:04 PM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 11:20 AM ^
Bicycle, Trampoline, Soccer Ball, Basketball, Swimming pool etc.
Along with no more playing outside with the neighborhood, running(as you might trip and fall)
I've coached youth football for 4 yrs and people overestimate the severity & number of head collisions. The kids weigh 85lbs but the equipment is almost the same weight as varsity stuff. This severly prohibits movement/speed.
I've watched the line blocking(where most repetitive collisions should/would happen) and its bears dancing.
We are RELIGIOUS about teaching/reinforcing "heads up" tackling and its working, along with teaching hawk/rugby style tackling to keep the head out. Its working big time. Kids are doing it the way we teach it and it will make a difference IMHO.
My son runs the ball quite a bit and takes some hits doing so. In his first year he would turn to protect his face at impact and got "ear holed" a couple times. Once he learned to trust his facemask and NEVER turn his head at impact he never got even a bit of trauma to his head whatsoever. I could attach video of a typical 5-6th grade play with him running the ball and you all would probably laugh. Kids grabbing at shirts and riding along until the RB trips or falls due to the # of kids hanging on him is 90% of the plays. Impact is very rare.
October 24th, 2016 at 11:49 AM ^
Holy shit, you managed to cram every CTE denying anecdote and red herring into one post. WTF.
October 24th, 2016 at 3:53 PM ^
Not denying CTE, or detrimental long term effects of repeated head slamming. Just noting that kids do lots of potentially dangerous stuff when they, you know..live life.
Ever watch a group of 8-10 yr olds on a trampoline? They fake WWE wrestle for hours
Ever watch a group of 8-10 yr olds in a pool? They make ludicrus jumps onto rafts, tubes, jump off the TOP of the slide, do backflips off the diving board.
I have an 11 yr old with lots of friends. I watch the crap they do and worry constantly.
Do you watch or have you EVER watched youth football? Or do you just read study's and let them do your thinking for you? Even when their conclusions are less than comprehensive or complete as noted by the poster below?
I would not let me son play youth football if the collisions were anywhere near the frequency/severity that you probably imagine they are.
I was interjecting firsthand ACTUAL OBSERVATION into a very inconclusive and controversial subject. Not to disagree with or try and dispell the study. Not to deny the findings(although as noted, they are inconclusive in regards to long term) but only to add some dimension to the conversation regarding collision frequency/severity as I've observed it for 4 years or rocket football.
BTW, if you watch that TV show from texas about youth football. Ours looks exactly NOTHING like that shit. Those fools are crazy and trying to win games by physically crushing their 8-11yr old opponents. If that was ANYTHING like what most youth football actually looked like? I'd steer everyone and especially my son far away from it.
October 24th, 2016 at 11:53 AM ^
Agree - also as a youth football coach.
Up until middle school ages (8th, 9th) almost all injuries are ground contact. I had kids over the years the broken legs, arms, feet and head injury all caused by the ground. You have the same risk for soccer and flag - trip, hit hard ground. The opposing players are too slow and light to cause injury.
October 24th, 2016 at 12:50 PM ^
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October 24th, 2016 at 4:29 PM ^
Firstly , if you don't have kids and have never coached kids in anything please sit the fuck down right now.
Secondly, if you have coached kids or have any, please note in detial what sports you've coached them in and/or allowed them to participate in.
Diving?? Gymnastics?? Hockey?? Karate? Wrestling? I've been involved or coached all of the above with my kids.
Diving and Gymnastics resulted in more hospital trips and defnately more "heachaches, dizzyness" complaints than all the others combined. Want to talk about a sport I'd NEVER again be involved with or let my kid get involved with?? Gymnastics is it. That shit is BRUTAL on kids, and it dont wait until age 9 to start. Thats too late to start. Same with hockey. If you start skating at 9 you are not playing hockey or figure skating competitively ever. Now, teach a 3-5yr old to skate. With a helmet on mind you. and count the # of times their head hits the ice in the first 3 months. I've seen it firsthand with my first son and decided right then that my kids would not compete in skating sports. Same as gymnastics. Got to start too early to get up to speed and you have to take a ton of thumps way too young before you get past that stage.
I'm not some mouth breathing moron who thinks you gotta "toughen them youngins up". I'm an educated person with a huge & deverse family with tons of neices & nephews as well as 3 kids of my own who have allowed me to see a pretty diverse array of youth sports up close and personal. If I had made mistakes with my kids I'd admit it. I think my young daughter in gymnastics and diving at age 4 & 6 was a mistake. I think my first son at 6 in young skaters and mite hockey was a mistake. My second son has played 4 yrs of youth football starting at age 8. First year early on he took a couple "earhole shots" that bruised his jawline and although never complained of headaches I was real close to ending it. We proceeded cautiously with a wait and see approach. It got better not worse. For not only him but the kids in general. If I saw other kids cracking heads and taking alot of shots I would pull my own out since its only a matter of time. I did not see that so we stayed in. I took an active role(coaching) and got as much training as I could manage on safe techniques and impact prevention both for games and practice.
October 24th, 2016 at 2:44 PM ^
October 24th, 2016 at 2:28 PM ^
Just to clarify, this is not directly about CTE.
What they measured is fractional anisotropy (FA). It's a measure you get from diffusion imaging essentially looking at directional of diffusion of water molecules in brain tissues. When the diffusion is anisotropic, meaning, not equal in all directions, its usually because the movement is being constrained in some directions. The inference is that axons, the long output end of the neurons, are responsible for this, since diffusion will tend to happen along the length of the axon more than in other directions. So high FA means more axons, or at least more axons all running in the same direction.
Low FA is then thought to be a marker of some kind of problem with the axons, aka the white matter in the brain that connect neurons to each other.
This is one of several recent studies to show decreased FA with concussions, or sub-concussive hits to the head.
CTE, on the other hand, is a condition that is characterized by protein buildups in the brain and neurofibrillary tangles that look a lot like (and might be indistinguishable from) alzheimer's and similar degenerative brain diseases.
It's not proven that these subconcussive hits cause CTE, and I think there is reasonable skepticism. Last time I posted about this there were some reasonable responses which I didn't have time to respond to, and this forum is just awful for having longform discussions, so maybe I'll put together a diary on this issue since it seems to come up a lot and we should all be more informed.
October 25th, 2016 at 1:22 AM ^
Here's an article from December 2, 2014 - with a very similar bent based on Whitlow's work at Wake Forest.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2856700/High-school-foot…
These articles are getting more play but the work has been on going for years.
Looking forward to your diary.
October 25th, 2016 at 1:37 AM ^
Yes, please make a diary. Definitely appreciate your input on this. And then make a post pointing out your diary since I usually don't check them lol (and I know many others don't as well).
October 24th, 2016 at 6:10 PM ^
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