CFP article from Andrea Adelson and it's predictability

Submitted by gustave ferbert on December 20th, 2020 at 10:21 PM

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30563882/college-football-playoff-2020-committee-remains-disappointingly-predictable

 

the opening line:  Welcome to the Alabama - Clemson  College Football Playoff invitiational.  

Is the CFP ruining college football?  

Gulogulo37

December 21st, 2020 at 12:17 AM ^

The CFP didn't get instituted because people thought the BCS was too objective. What's objective about the coach and AP polls? They really never tried the less subjective solution with the BCS. They neutered the computers when they didn't have a consensus with the voters, like removing margin of victory. The BCS changed to the CFP because there were many years when it looked like more than 2 teams may have been the best, not because of objectivity.

stephenrjking

December 21st, 2020 at 1:04 AM ^

This is not a selection criteria issue. The BCS often had to pick between two teams that were roughly equally deserving (each had zero or more often one losses, major conference, good-looking team, not much to pick between the two). Sometimes it picked poorly, sometimes it picked well, but it was stuck with a tough choice.

We have long memories. Everyone remembers that. Everyone knows that a BCS decision between Clemson and Ohio State would be ultra-controversial. People plain don't feel as bad about Notre Dame vs Texas A&M; both have lost to playoff teams, Notre Dame has a better win, A&M had its shot against Bama, tough rocks. 

The problem is that there are just too many second-tier good teams left out each year. It's not that A&M deserved better, it's that there's a half dozen teams that perform at that level that don't get in, and the same teams DO get in every year. 

The B1G has sent two teams to the playoff, total. The ACC has sent two teams to the playoff, total (well, three if you count Notre Dame). The Pac 12 has sent two teams. The Big 12 has sent one team. The ultra-strong SEC has only managed 3, somehow.

Bama has gone 7 times. Clemson 6 (this is the same number of appearances as teams that have appeared exactly once in the playoff. Only six such occurrences so far). Oklahoma and Ohio State 4 each. Notre Dame now makes its second appearance.

The chart on wikipedia's article is enlightening. There's a category for 0 or 1-loss P5 teams that weren't selected. 5 of those 6 teams have never made the playoff. There are 5 P5 champions that were not selected that have never made the playoff. 

The playoff would be a lot richer if more of those teams made it in. They might not win, but I'll bet a team like 2017 Wisconsin or 2014 TCU could do some real damage with the right matchup. Honestly, I look down on Wisco just a bit, I think they've hit their ceiling. But what if Wisconsin had a playoff win under its belt? Why couldn't it start nabbing some more top-100 types? 

There just isn't enough room for these teams to maneuver. They need perfect seasons and they're stuck in conferences with a single 800-lb gorilla that takes all the 5-stars and knows them. Imagine Wisconsin sneaking into the playoff, facing Oklahoma, and then plowing Oklahoma into dust with a ground attack that Oklahoma hasn't seen in years. It's plausible.

Or it would be. If more teams could make the playoff. 

Newton Gimmick

December 21st, 2020 at 1:59 AM ^

How about expanding the playoff to 16, but get rid of conference championship games, which are often redundant matchups that complicate as much as, or more often than, they resolve anything?  We only have 12-15 games to sort out 130 teams, it makes no sense to have all these rematches.  Clemson and ND played a second time only to determine that they might have to play a third time?   But then this gets into remaking the structure of these hideously unwieldy 14-team conferences, extremely uneven out of conference schedules, etc etc

The example matchups you give here are indeed enticing, but remember the stakes that are proportionately lessened on other weekends.  An amazing game like Alabama-LSU last year would have had much lower stakes, because both teams would be assumed to be guaranteed a playoff spot anyway.  I can already see an 8-game playoff 'discussion' centered around, "shouldn't the SEC get three teams in?"

And yeah I love the college football regular season but IDK, I honestly do not care at all anymore who wins between Alabama and Clemson Part Whatever.  Those two are pretty much faceless corporations to me who divvy up 5-stars then go play in some antiseptic NFL stadium. 

stephenrjking

December 21st, 2020 at 2:10 AM ^

I don't think we can focus too closely on the weird intricacies of this season, with its shortened scheduled and in some cases bizarre realignment. The Clemson-ND rematch wouldn't happen all that often.

But you're right, things can get complicated. The loss of the regular season showdown that can actually decide a playoff berth is absolutely a devastating blow to the sport, because those games are something that college football does like no one else.

The problem is that, even then, it's kind of losing its way. Clemson drops games in the regular season with some frequency, but it still as playoff-y as ever. That two-game series with Notre Dame? Might as well not have played, they're both in. Bama would probably be in as the third or fourth team if they had lost to A&M.

But it's a high, high cost, no question about it. 

I'm just kind of at a loss for what else to do to help this sport I love. And, I'll say again, I make no bones about the fact that my subjective position, rooting for a team that is declining significantly in stature as these changes are happening, has an effect on how I feel. But, surely, our fanbase is not the only one. We have brothers-in-arms in fanbases like USC and Texas that no doubt feel the same way, even though they at least sit on rich natural recruiting bases that we lack. 

Ghost of Fritz…

December 21st, 2020 at 9:12 AM ^

Governance of CFB is weak and fragmented. 

CFB would be more entertaining overall is there were no mega-conferences with two divisions, and we instead could have kept the 10-12 member regional conferences. 

No way to do that, however, because governance is weak and decentralized, unlike the pro leagues that can impose solutions. 

Once one conference expands (tries to increase its TV eyeballs/footprint), the rest have to follow suit.  Weak CFB governance lacks the capacity to impose limits that make the sport overall more rational and entertaining, 

trueblueintexas

December 21st, 2020 at 2:12 AM ^

As odd as it seems, the previous systems mitigated the impact of cheating by being more random. Teams cheated as much then as they do now. The whole SWAC for instance. The difference was who played for and was named national champion had less predictability preventing monopolies.

Clemson, OSU, and Alabama cheated to get where they are at whether it be mass illegal benefits, steroids or both. Now the playoff is present and the system creates legal benefits which perpetuate their advantage. They probably don’t have to cheat on the same scale as before now because they have the built in advantage of being in the playoff every year.

If people really want to fix the playoffs, address the elephant in the room, create a more even playing field for all teams and then expand the field. If not, you’re just delaying the inevitable Alabama, OSU, Clemson match ups in the later round with the hope of a random upset every once in a while in the first round.

Red is Blue

December 21st, 2020 at 8:35 AM ^

Yes, there are huge advantages to making the playoffs including TV exposure and extra practices for those that advance.  Teams with more exposure can more easily attract better players.  And teams with practice time advantages can better develop players so that they are more likely to do well.  That is, you've got a positive feedback loop set up.

A larger playoff means more teams have those advantages.  It also means the top teams have a better chance of missing the exposure of the Championship game, meaning more spreading of the wealth.  The NCAA should expand the field to 16 (either eliminate conf championship games or incorporate them as a first round). 

 

Need to think through the ramifications, but maybe a system where number of spring practices is inversely related to how far a team goes in the playoffs with non-bowl teams getting more practice time than bowl teams/first round losers ...with  championship game competitors getting least.

trueblueintexas

December 21st, 2020 at 1:04 PM ^

This is one of the reasons Michigan and a handful of others had a built in advantage, historically, when there were significantly fewer bowls. The 20ish teams which made bowl games got an extra 5 - 6 weeks of practice (most seasons ended the week before Thanksgiving and most bowls were on New Year's Day). Those teams would perform better the following year making a bowl again, thus creating the cycle. That was an incredible benefit. Now there are so many bowl games half of the FBS teams get the same practice time now. That is one of the positive benefits of the larger number of bowls.

A 16 team playoff would help, but I think the issue of illegally paying a good portion of the better players to go to a small collection of schools needs to be fixed first. There is basically no chance for a portion of teams to make the playoff and that should not be the case. Expanding the field to 8 or 16 teams isn't going to change the chances for a school like Purdue or Virginia. I would love to see an experiment of placing Saban/Swinney/Day at Purdue or Virginia without any bagmen to see what would happen. Even with a 16 team playoff, I doubt they ever get close. Until that is cleaned up, the only thing expanding the playoff does is incrementally increase the number of teams who will consistently be in the top 15. 

maizenbluenc

December 21st, 2020 at 8:45 AM ^

The problem in all of these is the selection - change it to a six team playoff with the power five conference champions and the G5 Cinderella of the year seeded in major bowls or all conference champions seeded in major bowls and play off from there.

The regular season non-conference games are important for seeding but allow for some risk because they won’t eliminate you from the division championship race

Regular season conference games become important because there are no second chances if you eliminated from the conference championship

This also occasionally removes Ohio State, Alabama and Oklahoma from the rotation

Conference championship games are elimination games - no second chances there either

ldevon1

December 21st, 2020 at 5:02 AM ^

I'm not sure what people expect or want them to do? No matter what, you will still have to deal with Bama and Clemson. I'm still not sure I would put OSU up there yet. From a B1G perspective, yeah, but if they can't beat Bama and Clemson they are in the same boat as Oklahoma, ND, Florida, Oregon and everyone else. Maybe crack down on schools who don't graduate kids. What is the graduation rate at these football factories? But then, that would just be another thing they would cheat at. The really is no answer for dynasties. 

caup

December 20th, 2020 at 11:03 PM ^

Agreed.  I had no idea how toxic the small playoff would be for the health of the sport. 

Every year this format is allowed to exist it just continues suffocate the competitive balance out of the sport, like a big ol' python. 

The recruiting rankings are the tell.  With social media and the national recruiting camps, all of the elite players network and end up going to the same small handful of programs.

It needs to die in a fire.  At this point ANYTHING is better than this cancer.

OfficerRabbit

December 21st, 2020 at 12:20 PM ^

Coming from an OSU fan... I 100% agree the CFP is killing college football as we've known it. It's become a CFP or bust sport... with top talent all going to the same 4-6 schools, and players opting out of once prestigious bowls because any bowl outside of the CFP has basically been rendered meaningless. I think 16 teams (as a commenter posted earlier) is too much... but make it 8. Power 5 champs are all in, and then 3 at large bids, including one guaranteed non-power 5.. this year would probably be Cincy. 

We have a fairly reliable data set now, we've had the CFP for what.. 6 years? 7? Let's make some changes to provide for a little more parity in the sport. 

JonathanE

December 21st, 2020 at 6:31 PM ^

The problem with a 16 team playoff is how many regular games are there for those who do not make the playoffs? Take Michigan for example and say that they don't make the 16 team field (I know it's a difficult imagination but play along.) 

Michigan currently has 3 out of conference games. At worse, they will play 2 of those at home. For league play they have 9 conference games, with the most 5 at home. (Usually the 2 out of conference games are played in years with 5 conference home games.) That gives Michigan 7 home games currently on the schedule. Eliminating any of those 7 home games is really going to cut into the schools revenue. 

An expanded playoffs is a great idea. The problem is how not to turn a college football season into a NFL length season while keeping as many home games as possible.

Rockford Rams

December 20th, 2020 at 10:28 PM ^

I know, Cincinnati and Coastal Carolina would have been way better choices than Alabama and Clemson...

In all seriousness though, the playoff needs to go to 8 games for the good of the sport.  The best players all flock to the schools that they know will make the playoff.  An eight team playoff should spread out the talent pool and keep more fan bases interested after that first or second loss of the season.

Carpetbagger

December 21st, 2020 at 9:32 AM ^

Sadly, the Playoff actually is doing pretty much what it was designed to do. I don't have much issue with the 5th team missing the dance. The 5th team is pretty far from the 1st.

What I didn't anticipate is the pooling of talent at the schools who consistently make the dance. That has been one of those "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" things I sure didn't see happening. That has hurt the sport as much as the dream teams in the NBA hurt that sport.

Those dream teams did hurt that sport right? I haven't watched a game since Pistons-Cavs.

gm1234

December 21st, 2020 at 9:48 AM ^

I agree, more teams would absolutely be better for all involved, but would it really spread the wealth of players around any? I’d think if it still boils down to Bama/Clemson every year, the best players are still gonna go there, so you have more teams but the same result? The games would be pretty exciting the first couple rounds that don’t involve Bama/Clemson cuz I think the teams would be similar enough that upsets would happen, but that would only last so far...

LostPatrol14

December 20th, 2020 at 10:29 PM ^

Only 4 team playoffs will continue to ruin college football. When they say "Best 4 Teams", they really mean best teams from the Power 5 only. God forbid they have the balls to add Cincinnati or Coastal Carolina as the 4th seed.

Gweedeaux

December 20th, 2020 at 11:53 PM ^

I think the same sentiment was probably said about Utah from the Mountain West vs Alabama in the 2009 Sugar Bowl.  And in 2007 in the Fiesta Bowl when Boise State beat Oklahoma.  Yes, teams like Bama and Clemson would be favored in those games, but anything can happen in what is effectively a one game series.  Even getting to the Championship game would make an enormous statement about Group of Five viability.  They don't have the depth, and they don't have the schedule, but the 1's on the top G5 teams can often give anyone a competitive game if healthy.

 

 

stephenrjking

December 21st, 2020 at 12:47 AM ^

Several problems with this analogy:

1. Importantly, the rich have gotten richer. The talent gap between Bama and other teams has increased significantly. Particularly since the 2008 Alabama team was only Saban's second and he hadn't really had time to get his own players on the roster. 

2. The teams in those upset games had potential motivational/prep issues that do not occur in playoff games. Bowl games obviously occasionally feature teams that take their prep a bit lightly due to how their season turned out.

3. Alabama and Oklahoma were not the best teams in college football in 2008 and 2006, respectively. There were better teams above them that would have presented even more of a talent disparity than the teams that played. 

We're not talking about this year's Cincy team against Bama or Clemson. We're talking about this year's Cincy team against, say, Texas A&M or Indiana. Still a dog, but a much more achievable goal. 

The reality is that if you give a G5 team a shot against Bama, they'll get curbstomped 98% of the time in a playoff setting. The playoff has made the elite teams much more elite than they were 10-20 years ago; we're going back to the days before scholarship limits here, competitively. The great teams get the best players and stay great, and everyone else eats the crumbs. 

m83econ

December 20th, 2020 at 10:29 PM ^

A playoff with only 4 teams limits the benefits to the few teams making it each year.  The recruiting sales pitch for the perennial playoff teams is far easier than for everyone else.  Expanding playoffs to 12 or 16 teams will not immediately result in new contenders for national championships, but over time will spread the talent.  The NCAA men's basketball championship going from 32 to 64 teams is your case in point.

the fume

December 20th, 2020 at 10:38 PM ^

This is a real good piont. My only opposition to an expanded playoff was that it would make regular season games less meaningful. The Bama/Clemson dominance has done that anyway, so they should go at least to 6, but probably 12 IMO. 6 at least gets you a Cincinnati type team in, which makes all those UC/Coastal/BYU games very interesting. They should really do 12, and on Conference Championship Weekend (TM), you can have 2nd place division teams playing each other as well.

mlax27

December 20th, 2020 at 11:11 PM ^

The other point about basketball that is important is that only 5 players are necessary to play and a couple great recruits is enough to  lead to a championship run.  That games also have more variability/luck.  
 

With as many scholarships as teams get, bagmen and the current super powers, it’s going to take something major to shake this up.  And even then, I think it’s just the next great coach randomly arriving at some school and they unseat some other school that gets stale after a coaching change or something.  So instead of the same 6 teams, one rotates out in exchange for another.

bronxblue

December 20th, 2020 at 10:37 PM ^

I mean, part of the problem is that Clemson and Alabama are just the two best teams in college football basically every year (save your random LSU 2019 season).  That's just reality, and while we can all argue about how impressive an undefeated G5 team can be, having a slightly different sacrificial lamb for one of those teams to smash isn't moving the needle for me.  

I'm fine opening up the playoffs to more teams because it'll give more teams a chance to claim they're in the playoffs, but barring some major injury or change to one of the top 2-3 teams in the country during the playoffs I don't think it demonstrably changes the outcome most years.  And that's the bigger problem with college football right now; the best teams are just so much better than anyone else that an OSU team that has lost 2 games over the past 3 seasons is a 6.5 pt underdog to their opponent and, I'll be honest, that feels a bit low.  I honestly don't know how you fix this imbalance but until one does being annoyed that TAMU and Cincy aren't in the 4 spot doesn't really move the needle for me.

bronxblue

December 20th, 2020 at 10:59 PM ^

Like I said, the top 2-3 teams are just much better than their opponents.  It can be due to talent, to coaching, to "bad breaks", whatever.  My point is that the #3 team in this playoff is a 7-point underdog to the #2 team.  

Clemson and Alabama both have 6-3 records in the playoffs and of those 6 losses, 3 have come against each other.  The combined record of every other team in the playoffs (including OSU) is 6-12.  It's not just about recruiting obviously, but clearly those two teams are heads-and-tails above the other programs in the country when it comes to winning titles consistently.  

Erik_in_Dayton

December 20th, 2020 at 10:52 PM ^

The biggest problem as I see it is that too many people see making the playoffs and winning the national championship as the measures of success. I don't expect to convince anyone to join me, but I miss the days when the national championship wasn't usually a program's focus. I do not remember off of the top of my head who won the title in some of my favorite Michigan seasons. And I think that's a good thing. Michigan won the Rose Bowl or at least the conference. Some other team won the Orange Bowl and its conference. More people ended the year with the perception of success.

bronxblue

December 20th, 2020 at 11:03 PM ^

Yeah, I kind of liked when teams got to play different opponents and could lay claims to being national champions even if, in lots of instances, it wasn't all that logical.  It gave way more teams goals to shoot for, and added intrigue to way more bowls and postseason games.  Winning the Rose Bowl meant something to the teams and conferences; now there's a good chance that the "actual" Rose Bowl is played by the #2 team in the Pac 12 or Big 10 because of additional playoff implications for the #1, and I think that somewhat cheapens the whole experience.  But I also have come to accept that this is what college football is to a lot of people, and as a willing consumer of the sport that's sort of the deal I make with it.  I do agree that winning a game in Jerry World a month after the season ends, and that game being "the most important one" in terms of historical relevance for a season, isn't particularly compelling to a fan.

stephenrjking

December 21st, 2020 at 1:13 AM ^

I remember who won. I always wanted the national title. I wanted to be the elite of the elite. 

We had a great season in 85, beat Nebraska in the Fiesta Bowl; Oklahoma won the title. 88 was a great season, finished 4th, could have been 3rd, since #1 and #2 were Notre Dame and Miami--and we lost to both of them by the closest of margins. I remember.

I remember Alabama surprising Miami after the 92 season to win the title in the Sugar Bowl after we beat Washington in the Rose Bowl. Somehow they were the underdog. Made sense then, sounds weird now, but there it was. I remember Florida State and Va Tech playing an electric shootout after the 99 season when we won the Orange Bowl over Bama. That year both we and Michigan State had great teams with close, tough losses. We each played a contestant from that year's SEC championship game and won in the bowls. We were close, a play here or there at MSU and a non-collapse against Illinois and maybe we're in the BCS championship instead of Va Tech and Michael Vick. 

I didn't have to look any of this up. I remember them all. I don't want consolation prizes. I want to win. I want Michigan to be the team others fanbases fear, the team that everybody respects. A team that wins. I want to see the guys on the set of Gameday after the title game. 

Don't get me wrong. I like the Rose Bowl wins, the Orange Bowl win, the Sugar Bowl win. But it's not like we're winning these games now, anyway. We haven't been to a Rose Bowl since 1/1/07. OSU has gone. PSU has gone. Illinois (!) has gone. 

I remember. 

WolverineMan1988

December 20th, 2020 at 10:53 PM ^

Bronx - do you agree with the self-fulfilling prophecy idea? The idea that the top teams continue to garner top talent because the playoff is so exclusionary and top 100 kids want to go where they’ll play for championships and get the most exposure. 

It seems to me that these teams are SO much better because recruiting is becoming ridiculously unequal. As an example, if you include the incoming class, OSU has four 5 star WR and five 4 star WR with composite rankings of higher than 95. And that’s just one position group. It’s hard to expect anyone else in the Big Ten to compete with that. 

I feel like an expanded playoff, at least 12 but preferably 16, would begin to encourage kids to branch out a bit more and help dilute the current football factories known as Alabama, Clemson and OSU.

Tuebor

December 21st, 2020 at 9:08 AM ^

NCAA defines the national championship tournament for every single sport under its umbrella with the lone exception of FBS football.  

 

Look at how popular the NCAA basketball tournament is.  A 12 team NCAA FBS football tournament would be just as popular if not more.  The NCAA just needs to grow a backbone.  Bowl tradition was one thing 20 years ago. But the BCS and now CFP have sullied that tradition.  Just look at the "Rose Bowl" being played in Jerry World.   

 

If you want to have bowls outside the 12 team NCAA sanctioned playoff you'd still have good teams available.  This year you'd have Florida, Georgia, Iowa St, Indiana, North Carolina, Nortwestern, Iowa, BYU, USC, Miami FL, Louisiana Lafayette, Texas, Oklahoma St, NC St, and Tulsa as ranked teams.  You can easily 10 really intriguing bowl matchups with teams that are left out of the playoff. Think football's version of an NIT.

bronxblue

December 20th, 2020 at 11:09 PM ^

I don't mind the idea of expanding the playoffs because, like you said, it might encourage some recruits to consider other schools.  But at the same time college football has just become to stratified at the top that I don't know if it fundamentally changes anything.  I know it comes across as whiny and it is a bit, but when the NCAA cries poverty and "amateurism" about college kids possibly being paid/being able to utilize their NIL rights while you see the same couple of schools clearly circumvent those restrictions under the table (and on the rare occasion the NCAA finds violations, portrays them as greedy, immoral student-athletes), I have a hard time seeing much of the paradigm changing. 

WolverineMan1988

December 20th, 2020 at 11:18 PM ^

The NCAA is just about useless for sure. I hold out hope that college football can be equalized a little bit, but it would have to be in spite of the NCAA. And in reality, it’s not an amateur sport anymore and really hasn’t been for quite some time. I’m ok with that, but it’s time we all admit that and allow these athletes to profit from a sport where they produce millions in revenue for everyone but themselves.

stephenrjking

December 21st, 2020 at 1:24 AM ^

Ok, to address this specific argument: 

Obviously, the landscape is changing. I like the old days of the regular season mattering, every game mattering.

But it's not happening much anymore.

I think the way you break the stranglehold of the elite teams is to give more teams a chance to be elite.

Yes, the NCAA tournament is random and the Final Four is less predictable, but its size also allows teams to make successful runs without winning it all. I have fond memories of beating Louisville to make the Sweet Sixteen a couple of years ago, and of course we made two title game runs where we lost, but still remember them well. Because we have significant tournament wins. You never forget those. 

So, a larger playoff will still, more often then not, result in a big boy winning. But there is a marginally greater chance for an upset, and further you'll get other teams in with a chance to make a name for themselves. And with that, a brand that can draw recruits, strengthening their own program for another run and just maybe balancing the field a bit. 

In some ways I'm with you: This doesn't cure everything. It's hard to know exactly how to fix this. Obviously, there are trends in college football, but in the past we could count on powers like Miami or Florida State or USC to recede, or, failing that, to not quite win every year. Bama has been the dominant power for a solid decade and shows no signs of slowing down. Clemson has made 6 playoff appearances. This is... not good for the sport. 

We don't have salaries to cap or a draft to balance things. This looks more like the European soccer landscape than anything, except smaller schools aren't allowed to be sold to Oil Magnates that could give them a shot to land top players. Bama is Bayern and Clemson is Barca and OSU is Real (the team of the Franco, naturally) and Oklahoma is Juve and we're Manchester United wondering what happened and how will we ever get over the hump.