Can we please stop with the Jedd Fisch myth?
In 2016 the Michigan football team played exactly 2 (TWO) ranked teams in the regular season, Wisconsin and OSU. The Michigan offense scored 14 points versus Wisconsin and 17 points in regulation against OSU. Further, in their only other road game versus an opponent with a winning record (Iowa), the Michigan offense scored all of 13 points. Jedd Fisch was in charge of the offense during those games.
I have read on this site today, and for the past couple years, an unusual amount of praise and worship of Jedd Fisch. His offenses performed no better against good competition than any other OC this team has had in the Harbaugh era. The Fisch offense beat up on Rutgers (78), Maryland (59), Hawaii (63) and other non-ranked losing teams. But, when facing decent defenses in big games his offenses averaged about 14 points per game.
Can we please dispense with this Fisch mythology? If he were so good, he'd be more than the clock management specialist for the L.A. Rams.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:38 PM ^
Amen.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:39 PM ^
Mad Hatter is the champion of the Fisch bandwagon. Take it up with him. I always thought it was a Harbaugh issue, which seems to be the actual case.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:00 PM ^
Got news for you no one makes posts for you.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:03 PM ^
I'll cop to that, but it's not because I think Jedd is some star spangled awesome OC. I just think that he fit in nicely with Harbaugh's offensive vision.
2015 and 2016 were a lot of fun, OSU and Iowa games notwithstanding.
I'll also note that OP neglected to mention the Citrus Bowl, wherein I'm fairly certain our opponent was ranked.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:15 PM ^
Actually, it was the Orange Bowl versus Florida State that you're referencing. I intentionally left out the bowl game, and specifically said regular season, because bowl games are notorious anomalies. However, since you'd like that game included, I'll simply state that the offense in that game kicked exactly 3 field goals in the first 3 quarters before getting a couple of touchdowns late in the 4th quarter.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^
2016 Citrus Bowl vs 19th ranked Florida. 41-7.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:53 PM ^
My OP is pretty clearly about the 2016 season. The Citrus Bowl was for the 2015 season.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:34 PM ^
But the topic was Fischology, wasn't it? I'd think we would have to look at his entire body of work if we're assessing his viability as an OC option. Therefore, 2015 counts!
October 20th, 2019 at 8:37 PM ^
Is there some particular reason you're only looking at 2016? Jedd was the passing game coordinator for two seasons. And the results of the 2017 campaign showed significant offensive regression in his absence.
October 20th, 2019 at 9:00 PM ^
To be fair, I don’t know if you can attribute all or even most of the 2017 regression to Jedd leaving. We only had Speight through a handful of games in 2017 before he had a season-ending injury, forcing us to start our backups who were significantly worse at quarterbacking.
October 20th, 2019 at 9:15 PM ^
LOL I only referenced 2016 because it was obviously the best, most explosive year of the two. But, which games from 2015 do you guys want me to include? The game against the 22nd ranked BYU squad where De'veon Smith had runs of 30 yards and 60 yards on 2 of Michigan's 3 early touchdown drives? Or, the game against 13th ranked Northwestern where Jehu Chesson ran the opening kickoff back for a touchdown, and Jourdan Lewis had a pick 6 to stake the team to a 28-0 halftime lead?
Or, do you want to include the game versus 7th ranked MSU, where Fisch's offense managed 230 total yards, and 10 first downs FOR THE WHOLE GAME? No, well maybe you want the 13 point performance against 8th ranked OSU?
Obviously, you want to include the bowl game. However, I generally exclude bowl games from analysis because of the extreme variables related to bowls create anomalies. Was Florida really 41-15 better than Michigan last year? Was Army really 70-14 better than Houston in last year's bowl? Who played in the 2015 Citrus Bowl for Florida? Who didn't play? That's why I didn't include the crown jewel of Fisch's legacy at Michigan. LOL
October 20th, 2019 at 10:01 PM ^
Over two seasons with Fisch as passing game coordinator/OC/whatever, our record was 20-6.
Who was the last Michigan OC with a record that good? I'll give you a hint, it has been a while.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:02 PM ^
Penn State - who won the B1G - wasn’t ranked ?
October 20th, 2019 at 8:06 PM ^
I agree with your stance. I think Fisch just worked great with Harbaugh and what he wanted to do. I also think we have better players on offense than we did in 2016 so I don't know how well the OPs stats compare.
Also, I think there's something to be said for blowing out inferior teams. It shows an ability to quickly diagnose what the defense is giving you and taking advantage of that within the constraints of your playbook. Since Fisch we haven't consistently blown out weaker teams.
Having said all that, I think Gattis demonstrated some real growth yesterday. In the second half against Penn State he made some key adjustments that worked out really well.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:11 PM ^
Last year, Pep Hamilton's offense had three 35 point blowouts, and two 45+ point blowouts. That's blowing out inferior teams!
October 21st, 2019 at 8:26 AM ^
You make a good point. Struggles are more easily remembered—Northwestern and Indiana, for example, along with most of 2017.
Also, I think our blowouts last year were predicated on our run game and I don’t think Pep was responsible there. However, I also am not quite as down on Pep as many here were last year. I thought that the offense was more creative under Fisch, but it was serviceable under Pep even though it was kind of an awkward fit with our QB.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:30 PM ^
I think the most important point. And I am not a Jedd apologist. I do think the QB play was better under Fisch. Rudock ascended as the season went on the Wilton was pretty good in his first season. Seams our QB's have been in consistent ever since. None of us thought that would be an issue with Harbaugh.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:42 AM ^
Mr. TheCube, go fuck yourself. You have a Harbaugh problem.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:43 PM ^
I agree. It should be noted tho that Tim Drevno held the OC title during those years. So Jedd never had the full keys to the offense in the way that Gattis does. But your overall point is true, if jedd was as good as some believe, I think he’d have a better job right now.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:45 PM ^
Does Gattis have the full keys to the offense?
These plays look a LOT like last year's plays & I don't really see a lot of difference other than poorer execution
October 20th, 2019 at 6:43 PM ^
If we had some good shit from Jedd, all our problems would be over.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:44 PM ^
What is this clock management specialist of which you speak? Asking for a friend.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:53 PM ^
This is why you gotta keep Gattis and just do what you gotta do, growing pains and all.
21 points in non-garbage time on the road against a ranked team is the most Michigan scored in a minute.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:36 PM ^
LSU just went from a horrific, plodding offense last season to one of the most explosive ones this year. All by adding Joe Brady as a coordinator from the New Orleans Saints.
Ohio State went from Tim Beck/Ed Warinner's discombobulated mess in 2016 to a pretty efficient offense in 2017 under Ryan Day/Kevin Wilson.
Teams switch offensive coordinators all the time without having to endure "growing pains."
October 20th, 2019 at 10:03 PM ^
2017 was Day and Kevin Wilson, so that's a really bad example of what you're talking about.
October 20th, 2019 at 10:19 PM ^
Josh Gattis is Joe Brady’s ex-boss.
I know schools transition without any perceived problems but that is bc they have the athletes and utilize them correctly.
Michigan has WRs who are 6 ft+ fit for deep balls yet employs a QB who can’t throw beyond 30 yards and refuses to throw fades/post routes.
Yet we want to play an offense that needs 5-12/11 4.3-4 speedsters (LIKE KJ FUCKING HAMLER FROM OUR BACK YARD) running around in “space”
4 years of recruiting Jason Avant types and now pretending they’re all Jeremy Gallon is comically poor, stupid coaching that only comes from the top.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:28 PM ^
I agree with your point - our losses are a result of discontinuity. The thing is, many on here complaining loudly, were gushing at the suggestion of moving to speed in space, and cannot now comprehend nor accept the cost of that move.
Well we’re the little brother at this point, and the best we can hope for is to win our own little “super bowl”. The good news is OSU plays Penn State the weekend before Thanksgiving, so they’ll have someone else to really prepare for first.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:47 PM ^
I agree with you. I have no idea where these rose colored glasses came out of in regards to Fisch. Do you all not remember how much you hated him when he was here and were calling for him to get fired?
October 20th, 2019 at 8:40 PM ^
It's because the last time we put up good yards through the air, he was responsible. Probably more of an indictment on the last three pass offenses than anything though.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:52 PM ^
Jedd Fisch was in charge of the offense during those games.
False. Jedd was QB coach, Drevno and Harbaugh were OC. I don't think he's the offensive savior some make him out to be, but he had some good pass schemes and seemed to be good at getting QB's to perform well. He didn't fare too well as an OC after he left UM, I wouldn't want him to come back and be OC here.
I think UM will be fine if they stick with Gattis and Warinner helping; need some stability which should help the sloppiness. We also need crazy Harbaugh to show up to motivate the guys.
October 20th, 2019 at 9:46 PM ^
Jedd was QB coach, WR coach and passing game coordinator.
October 20th, 2019 at 10:38 PM ^
The offensive was creative, and in 2016, extremely efficient and Speight looked as good a QB as any UM had in almost TWO DECADES.
Fisch leaves, Speight looks like shit, and the offense/QBs go to Hoke-level ineptitude.
I'm not saying Fisch is the "savior", there are plenty up-and-coming, talented, explosive OC's out there, and of course there could be ANY reason under the sun why the change occured, but Fisch leaving and the offense/QBs sputtering isn't exactly a wild leap.
That being said, I actually do trust in Gattis.
October 20th, 2019 at 6:57 PM ^
I agree with this. We got blew out by the good teams and then he bolted for greener grass. He wasn't ran out of Ann Arbor...
October 20th, 2019 at 6:58 PM ^
Ok. Hook em. Lol.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:02 PM ^
Maybe Sean Payton will come...let's go with that.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:04 PM ^
From the first game to the last game, that offense improved more than any other in the 5 years. Jedd Fisch was innovative and put defenses in conflict more than we've seen in the 4 years since. I'd trade Gattis for Fisch right now.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:19 PM ^
Uhh, from first game to last that offense improved? They scored 63 points in the first game of the season, and combined to score 50 points in regulation in the last 3 regular season games. Sorry to bust the myth, but that's not improvement.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:32 PM ^
Double overtime against Ohio St looked very good. Michigan's offense was going somewhere. It was getting better. There was a good feeling about the team. 2016 was Jim Harbaugh's best year at Michigan. It hasn't been the same since Fisch left. Jake Rudock was developed by Jedd Fisch. He was Rudock's QB coach. There's a stream of complaints that no QB has been developed at Michigan since Jake Rudock. It's because Jedd Fisch is gone.
Am I saying he's the best that ever could be? Of course not.
Am I saying the offense was the best it's been, since Jim Harbaugh has been head coach, with him involved? I certainly am.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:50 PM ^
Rudock passed for 20 touchdowns and 9 interceptions for Michigan in 2015. At Iowa the previous year, he threw for 16 tds and 5 ints. Jake wasn't bad before he got to Michigan, and wasn't great during his season here.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:43 PM ^
While I appreciate Jake Rudock, and recognize he is the best QB we've had under Harbaugh... I also don't understand the hype and praise that surrounds him.
Rudock wasn't terrible at Iowa, he just got beat out by a younger, more dynamic player in C.J. Beathard and transferred. Iowa's offense was a mess in that time, and they needed a more mobile QB like Beathard over Rudock.
The years that Rudock played for Iowa he was a pretty average-to-decent starter. Then he came to Michigan, and finished out as an average-to-decent starter that was surrounded by superior talent, and proceeded to wallop lesser teams padded his stats a little.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:22 AM ^
Yep.
Rudock had very similar rate stats the previous year at Iowa - he just had less attempts.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:47 PM ^
Readyourguard is talking about 2015, where they started off the season scoring 17 against Utah. I remember playing a ranked BYU and Northwestern, blowing them out of the water in the first 30 mins. and then completely shutting it down in the second half. Those were good times.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:08 PM ^
Michigan fans would be all happy when he comes back and they hate him when the he does not perform right away. He is like the backup QB every year ever. This QB sucks, play this QB, well that QB is no better, how about the other QB.
Fans love to bitch and think the grass is always, ALWAYS, greener.
October 20th, 2019 at 7:11 PM ^
I think people clamour for "creativity" as if college football were no different than backyard two hand touch football. The team seemed to do more creative things when Jedd was here, I guess. Although they certainly clammed up in big games.
October 20th, 2019 at 8:32 PM ^
The passing game was producing a lot more excitement when Jedd Fisch was here. In the two years he was here, a QB passed for over 300 yards 3 times, and over 400 once. A WR went over 100 yards 6 times, and once a WR went over 200 yards. Once a TE went over 100 yards.
In the time since he's been gone a QB has gone over 300 ZERO times, and a WR has gone over 100 ZERO times. But, a TE went over 100 once. That was Zach Gentry in 2018 against Maryland.
Those 2 years were the best years of Jim Harbaugh's time here. There was no ugliness in those years. There was no bad feeling in the air about the team. There was no foreboding feeling about the future of the team.
We all know about the lack of excitement, the disappointments, and even ugliness, since.
Here's the year by year stats:
October 20th, 2019 at 9:50 PM ^
If that's the metric, in Borges's three years here he had a QB throw for more than 500 in a game, and had another game of 450+ against Ohio State. And never mind these measly 100+ WR games, Gallon's 369 against IU was only 20 yards short of the Michigan record for passing yards in a game as a team.
His reward for that 450+ against OSU was a firing. Either that firing was wrong or this isn't the right metric.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:57 PM ^
A QB throw for over 500 yards in one game??? No. Denard had over 500 yards total many of them with his feet.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:33 AM ^
2013 vs. Indiana, Gardner was 21-28 for 503 yards and also ran for 81. Gallon had 14 catches for 369 yards. Toussaint ran for 151. 751 total yards. And we needed them all because the defense gave up 47 points.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=332920130
October 20th, 2019 at 8:42 PM ^
I think people (myself included) clamor for creativity because they see other teams creatively taking advantage of opponent weaknesses and wonder why we can’t do that.
Don Brown runs a lot of man, so Indiana and OSU used crossing routes against our slower defenders to rip us to shreds. That’s creativity. Pep would run long developing plays behind a line that had trouble blocking, often with head scratching route combinations that didn’t seem to get anyone open. That’s not creativity, that’s setting downs on fire.
People yearn for Jedd Fisch (again, myself included) because they remember multiple, multiple instances where he ran clever passing plays that created mismatches or put defenders into conflict and got receivers wide open, all while fitting into the general offense Harbaugh wanted to run. Good Shit Jedd TE overloads, levels concepts, etc. Route concepts that made sense and played off one another instead of Pep seemingly picking routes with a random number generator.
So maybe Jedd Fisch isn’t the savior we sometimes make him out to be, but he at least had game plans that made sense and took advantage of opponent weaknesses, something that’s seemed to be lacking since he left.
October 20th, 2019 at 9:31 PM ^
Again, Fisch produced all of that creativity against the Rutgers and Marylands of the world, not against the Wisconsins, MSUs, and OSUs. When the competition got stiffer, Fisch's offense got a lot less creative, explosive, and productive! That's the same as Pep's. However, John O'Korn had one start under Fisch and he went 7/16 for 59 yards passing (2016 Indiana). O'Korn was working with the same 3 receivers that would be drafted at the end of the year (Darboh, Chesson, Butt). When O'Korn got another shot the next year against Indiana under Pep, but with freshmen and sophmore receivers, he was 10/20 for 58 yards. Basically, the same as under Fisch, but with less developed talent.
Please, stop the mythologizing.