Any planned "Faceoff On The Lake" attendees reconsidering due to air quality concerns?
The fallout of the Norfolk Southern train derailment in East Palestine, OH's exposing of carcinogenic materials into the atmosphere continues to be an ongoing situation.
I hesitate to even ask this considering the abnormality of these circumstances, but is this having any sort of impact on anyone's plans to travel to Saturday's hockey game, with FirstEnergy Stadium in Cleveland being 91 miles away from the crash site?
I feel like if this situation posed a very imminent safety threat the game would be postponed/canceled, but the vast amount of conflicting information continues to make things complicated, so I'm curious to hear where people's heads are regarding this. Obviously many on here live in Cleveland (or closer) and this is a much more encompassing concern right now, but I'm starting to wonder if the quality of the air that those in attendance would be breathing might be worth avoiding if possible.
February 15th, 2023 at 10:09 PM ^
Dude. It's Cleveland.
February 15th, 2023 at 10:15 PM ^
The air quality there is always bad.
February 15th, 2023 at 10:15 PM ^
The air was already full of carcinogens.
February 15th, 2023 at 10:54 PM ^
I needed a good laugh!
February 16th, 2023 at 12:05 AM ^
Cleveland from Detroit?
February 16th, 2023 at 7:54 AM ^
Looks fine to me:
February 16th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^
Burn on, big river, burn on
Now the Lord can make you tumble
And the Lord can make you turn
the Lord can make you overflow
But the Lord can't make you burn
February 16th, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
Avoid Toledo. It's about the same distance from East Palestine.
On another topic, shouldn't it be West Palestine, seeing as it's west of the original one?
February 16th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
depends on the direction you go from the original one tbh
February 16th, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
If anyone has not seen these, highly recommend watching the Cleveland Tourism videos on Youtube. They are absolutely hilarious and make a reference or two to the river pollution and air quality. And yes, they are meant to be a joke.
I don't know how to embed but here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY
February 15th, 2023 at 10:11 PM ^
AQI at FirstEnergy Stadium is currently 42; which is quite good.
AQI checks at McKim’s Honeywine & Winery in East Palestine (located less than 1000 feet from the fire) are also showing good with VOC checks at less than 0.1ppm.
It appears that the air quality all in all is ok right now. The problem is now shifting to 1) problems for those who were exposed when toxins were more prevalent in the atmosphere and 2) what in the heck has and is seeping into the ground and how far reaching the effects could be.
As for attendance, I would go, but I have girls going to a Coming Home dance and I had better be there for pictures….or there will be trouble.
February 15th, 2023 at 11:43 PM ^
AQI doesnt measure these toxic chemicals.
AQI measures are:
- ground-level ozone
- particle pollution (also known as particulate matter, including PM2.5 and PM10)
- carbon monoxide
- sulfur dioxide
- nitrogen dioxide
The toxic chemicals from the crash are VOCs. Measuring the VOCs is not trivial. Even leaks at refineries, which are VOCs, are complicated to detect.
I cannot advise on the specific issue, but it would seem that the game is far enough away to not be an issue for the VOCs.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:33 AM ^
Jim Morrison has the answer from LA Woman:
Took a look around, see which way the wind blow.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:38 PM ^
If the wind is blowing from SE to NW strong enough to carry toxins from there to Cleveland. You have much bigger things to worry about.
February 15th, 2023 at 10:27 PM ^
Im more worried about the aliens being shot down and landing on me.
February 15th, 2023 at 11:31 PM ^
It’s good to see someone else besides me is paying attention to the REAL news
February 16th, 2023 at 7:39 AM ^
I know this is a joke, but this Train derailment is the REAL news that nobody cares about. This isnt isolated, there are other serious derailments in Texas and South Carolina. As for Ohio, the chemicals are killing livestock, fish, and others within the ecosystem. They have already said the chemicals are leaking into local tributaries, and I am sure they will make it to the Ohio River - Mississippi, etc. I dont know the complete impact of these chemicals leaking into major river systems, but I assume its a big deal.
The POTUS admin celebrated the avoidance of a RR strike, but a few of the main factors behind the strike were SAFETY, INFRASTRUCTURE, and lack of trained individuals. None of these issues were addressed adequately, and all of them are not quick fixes. Its not the Govts job to manage these companies - but these companies have the ability to crumble our economy.
Some of these class 1 railroads are in a VERY bad position. If the NS makes this out intact...some real shady business has gone down.
February 16th, 2023 at 9:05 AM ^
Maryland officials received a briefing yesterday. Some were saying that anyone in Maryland west of the Continental Divide should consider not using their wells until they get them tested and should have them regularly tested.
On their web sites, NOAA is tracking the toxic cloud and the USGS is tracking the river water and ground water blooms. This will eventually affect the water sources for 75 million Americans. That doesn't even take into account the farmland that's now covered with dioxin and other "forever" chemicals that will be taken up in crops for years.
February 16th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
I'm confused. No one in Maryland is west of the Continental Divide.
Edit: I did not realize they called the Eastern Divide a Continental Divide.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
I'm sorry, which dioxin was on this train?
February 16th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
The train was carrying vinyl chloride, which, when burned, produces dioxin.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^
2-4-5 trioxin
February 16th, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^
I don't know a lot on the topic, but this is why I don't understand people being opposed to pipelines. Seems to be safer than shipping something that's toxic on neglected railroad tracks.
February 16th, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
Pipelines are decidely safer although I don't think they are ever used to transport vinyl chloride or any of the other chemicals than got spilled.
The people opposed to pipelines for petroleum seem to think that if they stop the pipelines, then the petroleum will just not be extracted. It's not a very well-thought out position.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
Most of us who are opposed to pipelines and are honest about it would say this accident amplifies why we're opposed to them on principle: there is NO regulatory oversight in this country anymore, and some shit breaks/leaks underground, who's going to do anything about it? Would we even know about it? It falls under the same "trust us! fracking is super safe!" with the giant caveat of "when done properly" that disregards profit-driven companies' desire to cut as many corners as possible to maximize their profits at the expense of, well, literally everything else.
Conversely, most of the people who are FOR pipelines for petroleum are for them because they've been convinced by mealy mouth political talking heads that it will lower their gas prices tomorrow while creating millions of jobs if we allow pipeline construction to commence. It's not a very well-thought out position.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
No regulatory oversight? you're kidding right? There are more regulators in the government than there have ever been.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
No regulatory oversight? you're kidding right?
There may be more regulators, but if all the regulations get rolled back (you're aware of how much environmental stuff Trump rolled back, right?) what difference does that make?
February 16th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
There aren't more regulators either. All of the regulatory agencies were pared back quite a bit from 2017-2021 and the regulators that remain have had many of their regulatory tools taken away from them in favor of corporate oversight.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
I can tell you from my experience here near Dayton, Ohio, the regulators have no teeth or are simply unwilling to use them. We are dealing locally with a biodigester that was installed without permits, brings in human waste for processing, does not have adequate storage protection, and near daily makes a 2ish mile radius smell like an open, burning sewer. There are multiple lawsuits against the Ohio EPA, the US EPA, and the company that built and operates it. The evidence of negligence by all parties involved is overwhelming, yet not a single thing has been done to prevent a major waste spill, clean up the air, or simply shut down an illegally-operating facility (it's classified as "public utility" but provides no electricity to anyone but the corrupt property owner). Sure, there are agencies that are listed as "oversight," but really they're too busy overlooking the problems. This doesn't even take into account the local congressmen that have taken donations from the company that operates this facility. It's corruption everywhere. Having more regulators guarantees absolutely nothing.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
this is such a closed minded, stereotyping, "my view is correct, your view is dumb and wrong" take
February 16th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^
this is such a closed minded, stereotyping, "my view is correct, your view is dumb and wrong" take
Are you responding to me? Because if that's your takeaway then something got lost in translation.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
your post basically reads "people who think like me are honest, people who don't think like me are brainwashed by politicians"
February 16th, 2023 at 11:48 AM ^
That wasn't my intent. My intent was to respond to a post that said "all people opposed to [x] are opposed to it for a dumb reason." I responded to that with--what I assumed was clearly--a sarcastic take (second paragraph) at the other end of the spectrum. It's clear that didn't land as I intended.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
'My intent was to respond to a post that said "all people opposed to [x] are opposed to it for a dumb reason." '
Interesting. I don't remember phrasing it even close to that but you put it in quotes so it must be true.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^
you didn't ... i think it was a misunderstanding
February 16th, 2023 at 1:05 PM ^
no worries man, we all have our views (i am sure i have some really stupid ones) and text is often a difficult medium to get across quite what's going on in your head given nuances.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^
A train accident amplifies why you're opposed to pipelines?!? Such nonsense.
I agree that regulatory oversight sucks across all industries but if you are going to use that as a reason to oppose pipelines then next up is just shutting everything down. There are lots of dangerous industries with poor regulation and any solutions are not adequate apparently unless they are perfect.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
Me: this accident shining a light on deregulation helps to explain why I am opposed to something else that isn't regulated and has potentially harmful environmental impacts.
You: I agree that regulation sucks in all industries.
What exactly did I say that you find to be nonsense, then? It seems like you're basically saying that my principle is correct, but unrealistic. I guess that's fair, but that doesn't make me nonsensical. Perhaps overly idealistic, I'll grant you that.
There are lots of dangerous industries with poor regulation and any solutions are not adequate apparently unless they are perfect.
I don't get this argument. This is not where I land. It does seem to be a talking point of people at both political extremes, though. The mindset of "it won't stop ALL instances of [x] so we just shouldn't do anything" is such a weak position.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
Okay, I used the wrong word. It is not nonsense but unrealistic.
We need to transport petroleum products and despite the lack of regulation pipelines are still the safest method to do that and this train accident should actually illuminate that instead of amplify your opposition.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
Just to add, your explanation of why people are for pipelines is total garbage. Most of the people who are for pipelines are for them because they are clearly safer methods for transporting needed petroleum products than any other method. The small but vocal percentage who think they will lower gas prices or create millions of jobs are obviously not very thoughtful people.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
My "garbage" over-generalized sarcastic explanation was responding to an equally-garbage over-generalized explanation about why people are against pipelines. Sorry if that didn't land for you.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:15 AM ^
So why are people opposed to pipelines for transporting petroleum then? Everywhere I look I see it explained that it is because they contribute to our fossil fuel addiction. I actually agree we need to get off fossil fuels but I don't think getting rid of pipelines does that, it just makes it harder to move the stuff.
The other reason given is that pipelines pollute water, air and land. So do train accidents, tanker spills or any other method of transport so that point is a wash to me.
https://www.greenamerica.org/fighting-pipelines#:~:text=Pipelines%20don't%20only%20fuel,over%20the%20past%2030%20years.
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/5-reasons-we-need-to-keep-resisting-pipelines/#:~:text=Pipelines%20are%20bad%20news%20for%20the%20planet.&text=Several%20hundreds%20of%20miles%20long,across%20the%20country%20depend%20on.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
You originally said this:
The people opposed to pipelines for petroleum seem to think that if they stop the pipelines, then the petroleum will just not be extracted.
I told you why I was opposed to it, which isn't this reason. If I'm being honest, I probably inferred a tone of "stupid tree hugging libs, amirite?" from it, and I'll own that projection if it wasn't your intent. I would rather we pivot away from fossil fuels, but I'm not naive.
You keep saying pipelines are safer, but I genuinely don't know by what measure. I admittedly don't have the bandwidth to really parse all of this data from this project's website about oil and gas pipeline spills, but it would hardly indicate that pipelines are squeaky clean. Has there been definitive research done about which method is truly "safer"? What are the variables for "safety" or "environmental impact"? If one political party could stop falling over themselves to rollback any environmental regulations, could train transportation be safer? Not being an expert on Electronically Controlled Pneumatic brakes, I'm not going to sit here and blame Trump for rolling back that law. But he DID do it (and many others regarding what he called "red tape") and we can't know the overall impact on "safety" that may have had w/r/t transportation of dangerous/explosive substances via rail.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:42 PM ^
Anyone who knows me would characterize me as a tree hugging lib.
It's obviously hard to measure the safety of pipelines versus rail or truck and most of the studies have been done by someone who likely has some skin in the game (like the Manhattan Institute and Fraser Institute studies linked below) so are very difficult to trust. The Forbes article says pipelines are definitely safer as far as likelihood to kill people (immediately) but worse than truck or rail environmentally mainly due to aquatic impact but I don't think they are taking into account the greenhouse gas and other pollutants emitted from the trains and trucks. The last link is a paper from a Carnegie Mellon professor that does look at those externalities and comes to a pretty clear conclusion I think.
"Using data for crude oil transported out of North Dakota in 2014, this paper finds that air pollution and greenhouse gas costs are nearly twice as large for rail as for pipelines. Moreover, our estimates of air pollution and greenhouse gas costs are much larger than estimates of spill and accidents costs. In particular, they are more than twice as big for rail and more than eight times as big for pipelines. Our findings indicate that the policy debate surrounding crude oil transportation has put too much relative weight on accidents and spills, while overlooking a far more serious source of external cost: air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions."
Obviously there are some contrary opinions as with just about anything but I think the evidence points to pipelines being overall safer and better environmentally than any other method of transporting petroleum. One thing I noted is I can't even find studies from rail companies claiming rail is better. They will tell you it is safe but I don't ever see them compare it to anything else which is telling.
And yes, I agree that with proper regulation of the railroads that would also change the entire discussion and I will go ahead and blame the last administration for not following through on a safety feature even the rail companies knew they should have.
from https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/
'“Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes,” Steven Ditmeyer, a former senior official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), told The Lever. “The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it… they don’t want to spend the money.”'
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/10/11/which-is-safer-for-transporting-crude-oil-rail-truck-pipeline-or-boat/?sh=a27762e7b237
https://media4.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/ib_23.pdf
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/pipelines-are-safest-way-transport-oil-and-gas
https://www.aar.org/article/crude-oil-by-rail
https://www.nber.org/papers/w23852
February 16th, 2023 at 2:35 PM ^
With my sincerity, thank you for posting these. Anytime I can learn more about something I admittedly don't know a ton about, I will take it. I had read some remarks from Ditmeyer about the ECP brakes, but I didn't want to play the if-only game.
I also will eat some crow in that, with some time taken away from this discussion, I came out of the gate from the wrong perspective. I re-read the original thing you wrote, and I made an inference I shouldn't have. I'll own that, too.
I try to practice the "assume positive intent" rule and I certainly didn't do that here. My apologies for making this discussion more combative than it needed to be.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Never mind that the prior admin repealed a rule that very likely would have prevented this accident. Not saying, just saying.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
Can you actually cite one regulation that was repealed that would have prevented this accident? The NTSB has not yet even yet identified, or released the cause of the accident.
Since the previous administration has been out of office for two years, why wouldn't the current administration have reinstated such regulation?
This really just sounds like some unfounded accusations.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
It's been pretty well-documented that ECP brakes were proposed under Obama but rescinded under Trump. Not sure why Biden hasn't gotten around to getting it back.
"“Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes,” Steven Ditmeyer, a former senior official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), told The Lever. “The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it… they don’t want to spend the money.”"
https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/
EDIT: After a more thorough read, the ECP regulation rescinded under Trump would not have applied to this train anyway due to a limited definition of "high-hazard flammable trains" worked out under the Obama admin. So blame for this one can go straight back to Obama but Trump sure didn't help.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:38 PM ^
it was an axle that broke on a car, and the brake regs were for petroleum, not this stuff. additionally, our present admin could've just as easily put all that back in play 2+ yrs ago when they took control.