WTKA Roundtable 7/1/2021: They Call Him Tecatito
Things discussed:
- Happy NIL Day. What’s Michigan going to do about it? Sam: Line up 8 deals for Walter Nolen, duh.
- Michigan’s policy is to follow the new Michigan law, since that has some protections for the university if a player wants to advertise something objectionable (and a 7-day notification period), but Craig points out it’s pretty lax.
- Nike should lock up Michigan’s stars now so they will stay through their eligibility, since they can’t have them after.
- Supreme Court decision vs NCAA: Ignore Kavanaugh and ask what this means for scholarship limits, which seems to fall in the narrow prohibition on offering academic aid. So can the baseball team be fully funded now? Can the Big Ten take back baseball by having the most scholarships?
- NCAA defunct? No because they run a tournament and they need to play each other.
- Effect on the game?
- Planned economies don’t work, commies!
- If you’re worried about the freedom aspect, you probably haven’t been exposed to the dictatorship of a football program before.
- History Hour: Michigan has been paying players since the 1890s.
- Seth corrects Craig on the Bo to A&M story but it brings up a point: the NCAA was more effective at policing in the mid-20th century, but these days the players and the game are already professionalized.
- Will NIL cause locker room friction? Do the 5-stars making $100k+/year at Ohio State get along with the 3-stars?
- Education component: Teach the players how to run their own LLCs.
- Seth: Stop trying to figure it all out right now. Capitalism works.
- Michigan to require athletes to be vaccinated: Fine with this. Organizations have to protect themselves and the vaccine is safe and effective.
- What school did Taylor Decker go to that he doesn’t believe in vaccines? Yes, it’s okay to dismiss people who have “issues” with the vaccines. Their issues have no basis in reality. It sucks that the wet whiny crazies have found a foothold in politics—though less of one than we’re making it out to be—but it doesn’t change the fact that if you aren’t willing to do something as simple as take a COVID vaccine to protect your teammates, you’re probably not much of a teammate, and we don’t want you anyways.
- Dwayne Washington to the NBA: Not sad because he specialized in killing Eli Brooks. Big Ten title goes through West Lafayette?
- More Bufkin and Dug talk.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment two is available here. You can also watch the video here:
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I don’t have to listen to crazy people, except for Craig.
I’m sure Purdue is going to be great but simply returning the team isn’t enough…look at Wisconsin this year. College basketball is way to dynamic and unpredictable for that to be your argument. The main reason Purdue has inside track is their schedule is a JOKE relative to ours.
Taylor Decker went to THEEEEEEEE ohio state community college of columbus. Lebron is a big fan of the same CC, so they seem to share similar beliefs regarding getting vaccinated.
"What school did Taylor Decker go to that he doesn’t believe in vaccines? Yes, it’s okay to dismiss people who have “issues” with the vaccines. Their issues have no basis in reality. It sucks that the wet whiny crazies have found a foothold in politics—though less of one than we’re making it out to be—but it doesn’t change the fact that if you aren’t willing to do something as simple as take a COVID vaccine to protect your teammates, you’re probably not much of a teammate, and we don’t want you anyways."
And above post.
The tolerance is impressive.
Why should I tolerate someone who threatens my health through their blatant stupidity?
Did you get your vaccines? Are they threatening you? Did you know you can still get Corona virus after the vaccine. Are there long term effects of the vaccine? Is he allergic to vaccines? Did he just have the virus and was really sick with it, in which case they have said to wait 6 months or more before getting the vaccine.
I got the vaccine. I'm a health care professional. I understand that a vaccine isn't necessarily some ultra safe magic bullet. You obviously don't. And you obviously don't care what someone else's situation is.
Your health isn't threatened, but keep following the playbook of History. Intolerance, separation of those with different beliefs.
Keep going.
It seems you are confused as to what “tolerance” means.
Only conservatives area intolerant. Sand they're all bigots and assholes. It's unpossible for liberals to be intolerant. Every liberal knows that. That's why they hate all conservatives.
"Stop trying to figure it all out right now. Capitalism works." This is the only statement that leaves me with some hope we may be able to get recruiting where it needs to be someday
Uh, capitalism is what got us the NCAA cartel. And it was so powerful that it took direct government intervention just to draw blood.
Competition is what works, but it has to be deliberately created through anti-trust regulation. Unregulated capitalism was what got us the NCAA monopoly.
What?! It’s over-regulation and government intervention that got us the NCAA, not capitalism. The NCAA was protected from all major forces in capitalism, such as transparency and competition etc.
I’m not some Adam Smith zealot, but no way NCAA lasts this long without being protected by BS regulations and government.
The scope of the “over-regulation and government intervention” that led to the creation of the NCAA was football players dying. That was a bridge too far for you, not-an-Adam-Smith-zealot? Since then, the NCAA has dominated the economics of collegiate athletics precisely because no one challenged their authority. They’re not and have never been a branch of any government. It was free market all the way.
And even if you’re not an Adam Smith zealot, you might want to read up a bit more about him before flying off the neoliberal handle. Perhaps no man in history has been more misquoted and taken out of context in the Industrial era. His famous “invisible hand” quote was about the individual laborer’s decisions to maximize personal value.
I never said anything about the invisible hand. As I'm sure you are aware, Adam Smith wrote many things about economics and capitalism beyond his "invisible hand" comment.
But beyond that red herring, we've had a system in place for seemingly decades where it was both illegal and against NCAA rules to pay college athletes. This lead to a massive black market of under the table payments, some more clandestine than others, to athletes. All the while, the NCAA execs, college ADs and coaches were reaping major financial benefits legally. So yea, the NCAA is/was a cartel, one that was protected by over-regulation. Cartel's don't typically pop-up under more free market principles. But the recent NIL initiative is chipping away at those BS regulations that allows these athletes to get their fair share legally and above board, which is to say we are finally injecting some free market principles that are long overdue. I mean, the NCAA just got bitch-slapped by the supreme court on this topic last week.
What regulations are you talking about? What US law formally created and protected the cartel? If such a law existed, then how did they just get a beat-down in court? What US law explicitly protecting the NCAA got struck down?
Give us the exact citations, please.
It was a Supreme Court case, not a law. Look up where "student athlete" comes from.
We weren't (or Brian wasn't--that was him) saying capitalism is perfect and should be left alone. It's a rebuttal to trying to pre-regulate the NIL market to death.
I've said for awhile that College Football was a weirdly communist system for America. Ideally the participants were not paid very much so everyone could get in cheap. The whole idea was everybody is invited, and everyone gets a slice of bench in a big round bowl. What happened to them was the same thing that happened in every other planned economy: those who controlled it jacked up prices to enrich themselves, and a black market formed on the side. Fans were happy to keep the players poor when it meant our tickets were $10.
Um. How about paying student athletes their just due in cash for being a star athlete? Or having their names put on the back of jerseys for sale? Or having a bagel on recruiting visit?
These are 3 of many many BS regs handed down by the NCAA.
Will this lead to ND and PSU to put names on jerseys ?
Interesting question. My first reaction was "no", but then again, these schools might be forced to do so in the future to entice some recruits.
"Yes, it’s okay to dismiss people who have “issues” with the vaccines. Their issues have no basis in reality. It sucks that the wet whiny crazies have found a foothold in politics—though less of one than we’re making it out to be—but it doesn’t change the fact that if you aren’t willing to do something as simple as take a COVID vaccine to protect your teammates, you’re probably not much of a teammate, and we don’t want you anyways."
Protect your teammates from what? I'm sorry that you have a differing opinion, Seth, but the data demonstrates that this is not lethal illness to kids in this age range (especially those kids who have strong cardiovascular systems). Those players/coaches/staff who are at risk or who have concerns can get the vaccine to protect themselves and the ones they care about.
Implying that a player is selfish because he does not want to get the vaccine doesn't make much sense. Can't the same argument be made for those, like yourself, who are telling others that they must get the vaccine so that your health is protected?
Seconded.
My body, my choice...except when OTHERS say its not.
Of course it’s your choice. And you can choose to accept the consequences for an inherently selfish and anti-evidence choice.
So when if a still growing player comes down with myocarditis from the shot, then what will you say ?
Indeed. We were talking about Michigan losing recruits to their policy. I think it's fair for an organization to decide who they want as long as it's *not discriminatory.*
That seems to be the key argument here. I don't think being anti-vax should qualify as a protected class, just like people who pile their garbage on their lawns aren't due special protections from their neighborhood associations. It's just being a selfish menace, driving property values down, and making those around you deal with your disgusting choices. There are neighborhoods that you can go to where you can do that, and you can always find a desperate association board candidate who will tell you it's your right in exchange for your vote, and you can both pretend to be victims together. But in my view, it's totally reasonable for institutions to exclude people who don't abide by minimum hygienic codes. It's not a religion or a race or something you're born with. It's just being too gross so others don't want to be around you. Seems to me like someone who isn't willing to sacrifice a poke and a day of not feeling well for those around him isn't someone who will sacrifice for the team.
Seems to me like someone who isn't willing to sacrifice a poke and a day of not feeling well for those around him isn't someone who will sacrifice for the team.
Excellent in-context point. If some recruit is so arrogant as to reject expert advice or so unwilling to deal the inconvenience of getting vaccinated, you’re probably not looking at a coachable player.
"If some recruit is so arrogant as to reject expert advice or so unwilling to deal the inconvenience of getting vaccinated, you’re probably not looking at a coachable player."
Or a plethora of a 1,000 other reasons other than you choosing whom can be a member of society.
Let's see:
Religious reasons
Family history of Heart issues
Allergies
Or any host of others - or even that the "expert advice" keeps changing constantly - you know, where the CDC said to NOT give the shot to people under 18? And then backtracked? And then backtracked again?
"But in my view, it's totally reasonable for institutions to exclude people who don't abide by minimum hygienic codes."
And what "minimum hygienic code" is a vaccine that isn't even full approved?
Sorry man, but you're going down a dark path of choosing who can be a member of society. Very 20th century historical approach.
This would work wonders for a DUI ticket.
600,000+ dead in America and we’re still getting comments like this.
trying to be the voice of reason on this is not a winning proposition, once they politicized it they will are willing to do violence to get you to agree with their viewpoint and create as much fear as necessary.
Some watch way too much TV news (from ANY source) and their job is to get and keep viewers.
if people would stop being so emotional and really dig into the motivations of the people trying to sow fear things would be much clearer.
Let's say Jeff Bezos gets bored with space and decides to set aside about $500 million a year (about half his estimated spending on Blue Origin) to mess with college football. He could just pick a team randomly, let's say EMU, and tell the athletic department that he will cover $500 million in football "educational stipends" every year for ten years. Would this bring a natty to Ypsi? Would it take more or less than 10 years?
Well for starters it takes more than throwing money at a problem to fix it. A number of programs that historically haven’t bothered with pesky ethics have tried to win Alabama-style, but they missed the boat before parity completely disappeared because they weren’t run well. Alabama and OSU may lack any sense of shame, but they’re also damn good at what they do.
While I think NIL will be a net boon for Michigan, I’m not convinced Harbaugh will capitalize. We’ve seen him squander talent and resources, and hoo boy. More money wouldn’t have mattered when they forgot to send Alaric Jackson a LOI, or never threw to Chris Evans, or Nico Collins, or failed to watch even one minute of MSU game tape. Or just completely fail to recruit at all for whole position groups.
Not using Evans and Collins, not to mention DPJ, burns me still. What a waste.
Does it take more than throwing money at this problem though? Particularly if the amount of money is essentially infinite? My thinking is that $5 billion over ten years would bring elite talent. The talent would bring better coaching, and voila? Is there any quantity of money that guarantees a national championship over a period of 10 years? Well Jeff, ball's in your court. Let's make this experiment happen! But uh, maybe try it with M first.
if you aren’t willing to do something as simple as take a COVID vaccine to protect your teammates, you’re probably not much of a teammate, and we don’t want you anyways.
I'm vaccinated, but I feel like this argument is dated at this point.
College-age people were never a high risk cohort. This never really was about "protecting their teammates." The main problem with them getting infected was that they might pass the virus on to actual high-risk people. But at this point, most high-risk people are vaccinated. (If some are choosing not to get it, well, it's their life.) If we're still forcing all players to get tested, it's just security theatre now.
“High-risk” is a bad argument because it ignores that the virus is primarily a public health issue before anything else.
Also, by the calculations of covid’s expected infection of 5, a little over 80% of the population needs to be vaccinated or “immune” to have a public defense against the virus’s reproduction number. Otherwise, the virus persists. I think some may overlook the fact that the longer it persists both at home and abroad, the more (stronger) variants will arise, and we’re stuck in this endless loop of threat that we all hate.
/epidemiology concentration
All of this is to say:
Walter Nolan, please come to Michigan
Glad you’re vaccinated but you’re wrong that most high risk people are vaccinated. The world’s vaccination rates are low, and new variants are emerging as Covid continues to rage around the globe. We are doing a relatively good job in the US, despite the kookoos, but we’re really not close to being able to announce mission accomplished.
I want to believe in the UM money cannon and that this will help UM even the playing field, but unsurprisingly UM is already behind OSU. Several OSU players such as NPF, Tyreke Smith, Jeremy Ruckert, and Teradja Mitchell have already inked and announced sponsorship deals. Why haven't we been working on deals for our guys ready to ink today and profit from the buzz to sell future recruits on? Ugh :/
Does anyone know if coaches can create their own LLCs which can be used to sign their players to NIL deals?
For example: Josh Gattis Wide Receiver Coaching Academy LLC wants to give Tyler Morris a signing bonus in exchange for the use of his name, image, and likeness when promoting Josh Gattis Wide Receiver Coaching Academy on social media.
"Yes, it’s okay to dismiss people who have “issues” with the vaccines. Their issues have no basis in reality. It sucks that the wet whiny crazies have found a foothold in politics—though less of one than we’re making it out to be—but it doesn’t change the fact that if you aren’t willing to do something as simple as take a COVID vaccine to protect your teammates, you’re probably not much of a teammate, and we don’t want you anyways."
This is a bad take and you should feel bad
What about the recruiting benefit of telling parents everyone on the team is vaccinated? What if you get to the playoffs and an unvaccinated teammate causes an outbreak and yoir team can't participate? What does it say about a kid if they won't get vaccinated just to stop a public health crisis? Why should Michigan recruit candidates for a Michigan degree who do not trust science over their feelie weelies? How is it not a huge red flag of the kind of selfishness, the kind of poisonous me-first attitude that ruins a locker room if a kid won't get vaccinated to stop an international pandemic?
Where do you get off judging other peoples' individual health risk assessment? Is yours absolutely superior to theirs? No, it's not. Clearly. Do they not deserve control over their body in this case, particularly a probable minor who is not in an age group found by research to be particularly at-risk? Can you say with the certainty of a decade of successful inoculations there will be no long-term side-effects? The Moderna variant, while hopefully delivering on the promise of a revolutionary delivery mechanism, is particularly unproven through the lens of the FDA et al.
Johnny Three Star is not single-handedly stopping a public health crisis by getting the vaccine. The science, as it exists, is uncertain, and if you continue to beat the SCIENCE drum, you're sounding like an otter.
That's messed up.
I'll say that I have received my doses, and so you may follow where my decision-making process led. But you overstep to demand that of your fellow citizen, in this case.
Cheers
It's a good take and he should feel good. Science exists. You might want to look into it.
P.S. The earth is round.
Pretty sure Brian meant Naomi Wolff and not Naomi Klein, who is a cool person.
I was going to get the “vaccine”, but after three family members ended up with serious reactions (two of them ongoing weeks later) I decided my DNA connection is telling me it’s not a good idea. I guess I’m being selfish in the minds of several on this site
it should be everyone's RIGHT not to have to take any vaccine
if THEY are vaccinated you aren't hurting them, you are at risk and it is a very small risk.
at some point people will tell the truth, this was a politically motivated pandemic. It has achieved it's goal, now it is about Power over the people.
ANYTIME the government tells you they are taking away your rights for "your own good" you know they have an alternative motive because they do not care about we poor peasants.
It must suck to think like this.
Can we re-hang the Fab Five banners yet?
- Will NIL cause locker room friction? Do the 5-stars making $100k+/year at Ohio State get along with the 3-stars?
do they get along now?
nothing has really changed
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