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Date Title Body
08/23/2011 - 3:40pm Great work and well deserved

Great work and well deserved thanks Tom!

08/18/2011 - 3:27pm Another reason to expect statistical improvement by the D

Besides the datapoints listed, is that Borges' offense will also help the D by consuming more clock and by having fewer turnovers.  Didn't see it mentioned but then again I just skimmed.

07/26/2011 - 12:39pm Do these medicals free up

Do these medicals free up space for a bigger recruiting class this year?

07/22/2011 - 11:19am Damn looks like ND is where

Damn looks like ND is where we want to be in a year or two, except for the QB issues.  Looking like we'll be major underdogs for this one.

07/21/2011 - 1:01pm This kid is eloquent and

This kid is eloquent and smart.  But wow, those kind words for Hoke bode so well for this team in the future.  Hoke's down home magnetism and Mattison being one of the best recruiters in the nation bode so very, very well.

I'll take 7-5 this season with the parts we have, and hope for better things in 2012, with the sky being the limit in 2013 and thereafter.

07/15/2011 - 11:37am The ideal mascot would be no

The ideal mascot would be no mascot, but if we DID have to have one, ideally it would be a cross between:

1. I hate to admit it, but Sparty in terms of brawn -no wussy mascot like the ridiculous Penn State skinny lion mascots running around.

2. Sonic the hedgehog -  closest mascot-like character to a wolverine.

3. Six Zero's "entitled" mascot above - put him in a feaux suit and give him giant, sponge spectacles so he can relate to the UM student nerds we all were and some continue to be.

 

07/08/2011 - 3:43pm This is the equivalent of a

This is the equivalent of a bank robber's punishment being to only have to give the money back...  What color is the sky in their world...

07/07/2011 - 10:11am and the fact that we had so

and the fact that we had so many turn overs, and 2 mike hart goal line fumbles, made it that much more impressive.  tim tebow's only bowl loss.  the d was bizaare that game.  one play getting torched by percy harvin, the next, looking monstrous in shutting down and rushing tebow.

such a twilight zone game, but hell yeah, the result was great.

06/09/2011 - 4:05pm Seriously though, the all

Seriously though, the all Maize from the 60s is the one that makes my eyes bleed.

06/09/2011 - 3:36pm That diatribe by his lawyer

That diatribe by his lawyer amounts to one word: GUILTY.

06/09/2011 - 3:34pm The brighter shade of yellow

The brighter shade of yellow is a better look, which is probably why it has gone that way over the years, but not sure what your point is with regard to throwbacks.

06/08/2011 - 7:02pm OSU's competitive advantage

OSU's competitive advantage mostly stems from being the only big time program in the fourth best football recruiting state in the nation.  No other college football team enjoys such a commensurate luxury.  Florida recruits split among 3 big programs  California recruits split between 4 Pac 10 schools.  Texas is the closest match for this type of competitive advantage, although Texas does have A&M to compete with, and an occasional Houstion.  Cincinnatti is no Texas A&M.

Decades ago when MIchigan was a more prominent industrial state relative to most others, before the auto industry collapse that started in the 70s, Ohio's talent edge was probably not as prevalent as it has been this last decade as Michigan's population and public money for sports programs, has declined.

Further, Michigan has always had a marked disadvantage by having to share an inferior football state talent wise, with MSU, thus losing the Lawrence Thomases and Gholstons and Bullocks, thanks to entrenched MSU leaning high school coaches, and MSU fan bases.  We have a smaller pie, and we have to split it.  OSU enjoys their big pie mostly to themselves.

Factors like Bo, UM's rich tradition, the UM NFL football factory, all help even the talent ledger with OSU over the last 20 years, as kids from all over the country would flock to UM as the NFL turnstile it was.

Then the mess that was RichRod, cratering so much, but also instantly cratering the NFL factory image UM had, by introducing the spread and recruting all these midgets.

Yes, OSU's violations probably demonstrate a more inviting, laid back environment for high school kids, and this probably did give OSU some slight recruiting edge, but that is but a drop in the bucket of the bigger picture and the bigger reasons OSU has an edge when it comes to landing talent.

Hoke and these sanctions will give us a needed window to restore the balance - UM as the NFL factory attracting top national talent, in order to counteract OSU's inherent local recruiting advantage.

05/27/2011 - 12:05pm Have you been in a cave the

Have you been in a cave the last 8 years bro?  Qualifying the level of fun associated with ANY imminent win over OSU is silly.  Take whatever you can get right now and be happy, and have this conversation after a 4 year win streak.

05/26/2011 - 11:56am yup

Precisely right.  Take a snap shot of last year.  If Tressel plays by the books as he should have, does OSU win the BIg 10 without those 6 players?  Not a chance.  Does it beat Arkansas to snap it's 0-9 SEC streak? No way.

My favorite part of all of this will be when OSU is required to vacate last year, thus returning them to Oferville (0 for 9) vs the SEC.

Funny how they were trying to line up a home and home with Venderbilt....  Vanderbilt...  Wonder why.

05/23/2011 - 3:29pm HUR HUR.  ME CAVE MAN.  ME

HUR HUR.  ME CAVE MAN.  ME SAY FUCK OHIO.  FUCK THE CHINA I'M A BULL.

I hope you aren't the same guy who gets up in arms at the slightest UM neg on these boards during the season, like Queen Elizabeth monitoring table eitquette.  My guess is you are. =\

05/23/2011 - 3:25pm TX, not NY

TX, not NY

05/23/2011 - 3:20pm I have no love for Ohio.  I

I have no love for Ohio.  I grew up on Farmington Hills and lived in Ann Arbor 8 years for undergrad and law school, and I agree towns like Toledo and Columbus are malignant.  Cleveland is bunk too, countered by Detroit I'd imagine. 

You all crap on Ohio - representative of a large segment of Michigan fans - but we're talking football here.  Not parks, rivers, sewage or amusement parks, even though yeah Cedar Point rocks.  One thing the shit hole you all despise has going for it is what, the fourth best football recruiting state behind FL, NY and CA, that happens to have fed our beloved football team with many of our best players ever.

Yet you shit on it indiscriminately, not heeding the chilling effect that may have on a recruit.  yet God forbid someone question the UM football program on these boards mid-recruiting season, then they are a pariah for doing the slightest irrelevant thing that may impact recruiting.  Funny.  Pot meet kettle.

"99% of Ohioans are Buckeye fans anyway..."?  My point exactly.  Perhaps if UM fans focus hate toward Columbus instead of Ohio, we can all do our tiny part to help our team recruit that state down south that much better by not having Ohio recruits thinking they're going to feed a fan base that makes fun of the home of their fathers, mothers and siblings.

 

05/23/2011 - 2:16pm It's painfully obvious why

It's painfully obvious why Dantonio is such a jerk and Izzo is not.  Izzo is genuinely content at his job.  Dantonio on the other hand, is now and will continue to be miserable until he becomes Ohio State's head coach.  The man has a hard on for the Buckeyes more than anyone.   His time in East Lansing to him is nothing but a proxy run at competing against Michigan, but deep down he's miserable at not having the recruiting muscle he would at Ohio State.  He's enjoyed the ride that came with the RR transition melt down, but he, like the rest of us, knows that time has passed, and odds of things returning to normal (i.e., UM crushing MSU consistently) is imminent.  This will be his last strong year before his team returns to Big 10 mediocrity, where it will stay for years, resulting in his ultimate dismissal.  His one hope is for Tressel to get the shit can, for Meyers to balk, and for the Buckeye job to fall in his lap. 

I hate Dantonio now, I'll hate him twice as much if that ever happens.

04/09/2011 - 2:28am Dear heavens... after 20

Dear heavens... after 20 years of surfing the net I thought I'd seen it all and had no room left to be disturbed, and then I scrolled half way down the Beano Cook google search... 

04/07/2011 - 10:52am Just got emotional over this

Just got emotional over this at work today.  I used to see Vada at the UM UGLi all the time in undergrad.  He was the most noticeable football player on campus to me because of how outgoing and effusive he was.  Always with a smile, always there studying and messing around like the rest of us.

Saw him last year tailgating before the ND game and tossed out a "Vada Murray!" at him as he walked by and he nodded and smiled.  I knew he was sick and I thought that small gesture would let him know he was still a star in our eyes.

I think of how I'm 42, having just gotten married and about to start my family now, and how wrong it is that such a great guy was only given 43 years.

We really do need to cherish what we have, when we have it.  We cherished you in life Vada and we cherish you today.  Rest in peace bro.

03/24/2011 - 6:39pm Disagree

Disagree big time with Brian on this one.  How many points did we put up against OSU last year with "all the offensive pieces"?  7.  After our first drive, how many did we put up against Miss St. while they were scoring 52?  7.  Against MSU? 17.  In just about all the key games, the "high powered" offense shat a brick.  If they had averaged 30 against those teams then Brian would have a leg to stand on here, but they didn't, so personally I have no problem watching Hoke and Borges work the offense into their system with the pieces they have.

01/10/2011 - 2:31pm To the sad, negative nellies.

What a giant pack of douche bags we are as a fan base.  Look at how many of you are so damn negative.  First you shit all over RichRod for three years and drive him out of town without giving him a chance, now you turn your rabig 'holier than thou' negativity onto Brandon for, God forbid, actually reaching out to fans to give them an update while asking them to rally behind the new coach.  The whole point of the man's message was please leave the negativity at the door.  Get positive with whomever we hire - it will do wonders for recruiting, for the media, and for any chance the team has to resume it's winning ways.  But no, just a giant pack of negative dicks, lining up again - one after the other.  Seriously, go root for the another team.  UM football doesn't need you.

12/31/2010 - 4:00pm Realize Friedgen was let go

Realize Friedgen was let go before the bowl game so that datapoint is irrelevant toward his firing.

12/30/2010 - 5:39pm How can you possible call it

How can you possible call it insane?  If we win 50-0 vs an 8-4 SEC team, and go 8-5 after last season's 5-7, especially after all that has happened, do you really think there is any chance RR is fired?  If we lose 50-0 do you think there is any chance RR is kept? 

The call is a close one for Brandon.  Who would deny that?  It's a close call on RR either way right?  Or am I wrong on saying it's a close call.

12/30/2010 - 5:28pm You project upon the mind of

You project upon the mind of any new poster that the only reason they make a new post is because they think they have a great or amazing idea, and thus they are worth negging.  Did you ever think perhaps, that UM fans might also make posts so they can hear other fans' thoughts on the matter they raise?  That was all I was after really.  This game seems like the deciding factor in RR"s hiring/firing, I wanted to know other fans' thoughts.

What does "cc" mean? I have no idea.  I've been following UM football since 1979, so I know plenty about that.

If there is some etiquette, or some need to put "cc" whatever that is before posts that don't purport to provide newsworthy content, why not ask Brian to put a link to such etiquette, and fans like myself would be happy to oblige.  But the way some of you front this forum etiquette negging at older fans like me, is a major turn off and a poor representation of the Michigan fan base on this, probably UM's highest traffic blog. 

12/30/2010 - 4:53pm Disagree. You really think if

Disagree. You really think if we blow out Miss State like 45-17 RR won't be back even if Harbaugh is interested?  I'd give it 75% chance RR's back if we win.  85% if we win by more than 10 points.  95% if we win by more than 20 points.

12/30/2010 - 4:46pm I didn't see any other post

I didn't see any other post out there with the angle that, given how close the call on RR has become after this year, the final weighing factor just might be this bowl game.  I think it adds intrigue to approach watching the game this way - RR"s players playing not only to win a game, but to save his job one way or the other.

Not that I care much, but consider stepping away from your computer for a few weeks, if you've gotten to the point where you waste oxygen negging your fellow UM fans.  I know it's been a disappointing year, but you need to channel your aggression more appropriately.

12/30/2010 - 4:38pm Mike Martin, Dave Brandon, Ed

Mike Martin, Dave Brandon, Ed Martin... sorry for getting my names wrong.  I corrected it I think. 

11/23/2010 - 6:12pm bah

Agree RR should be back next year. 

Reasons:

1. Offense.  Compare this offense to our offense two years ago.  Don't forget that this has been with Vincent Smith as the feature back - small, slow, and can't shed blocks to save his life.  Just imagine the damage this offense will do with even better personnel next year with the D&D (Denard/Dee) show?  And more experience across the board?

2. Defense.  Simply, cannot possibly get worse.  Cannot.  This was the nader.  We will never in our lifetimes see a worse UM D than we saw this year, may it R.I.P.  Why?  Obvious reasons like maturity, experience, another year in the weight room, but also, let's face it - RR knows if he doesn't turn the D around next year, his job will be toast.  He has completed 50% of the plan - offense.  Now he must complete the other 50%, otherwise he is gone next year, and everyone, even Brian, will agree there.

3. Special teams.  See 2.  Cannot possibly get worse, and again, I expect RR to take this very seriously in the off season.

4. Turnovers.  This is arguably the only major liability of RR's offense, and something that also must be given attention.

We will end up 7-6 or 8-5 this year, and next year will see improvements across the board.  I am excited for next year to see if RR can fix the D.  All of Wolverine nation will be focusing on this next year, and it will be the single most important future datapoint defining either the success or failure of RR's tenure at UM, because the deadliness of the offense is going nowhere.

11/22/2010 - 6:57pm What planet are you

What planet are you from where reason and objectivity don't fly out the window for a significant number of fans after their team gets beaten badly, and then follows it by potentially losing again to their arch-rival?    Decades of watching this happen, of which endless times when I was younger I partook in it myself, and God forbid I mention it lest I be 'smug'....  Especially in light of the context surrounding RR right now, are you kidding?

11/22/2010 - 6:35pm C'mon man. Boards like

C'mon man. Boards like this were specifically meant so the little guy like you and me can have a small voice and have fun with the "I told ya so's" and the "I betcha's." Any time someone makes a prediction, it makes you puke?

Again I'm just one of the nameless, facelss guys, but along the lines of "I told ya so's," my predictions so far for 7-5 this year have been pretty good. 

I predicted four wins: IU, IU, UMass, BG.

I predicted four losses: Iowa, PSU, Wisc, OSU

I predicted four key coin flips: UConn, ND, MSU, Purdue.

Now I predict RR returning no matter the outcome Saturday vs OSU. 

In truth, I really just want to see one more year of RR to see what he can do.  Why?  Because I honestly think next year the following will happen:

1. The offense will get bigger, faster and improve (add Dee Hart freshman sensation?).

2. The defense has nowhere to go but up. Next year's adjustment on defense will to me, be pivotal to RR's eventual, or terminated future career at Michigan. 

3. The kicking game also had nowhere to go but up.

4. Turn overs will also, based on probabilities, improve.

5. Injuries will also, based upon probabilities, likely not be as devastating.

I don't see 12-0 next year, and I don't see the defense turning into Alabama, but if you me all of these improvements, I see 8-4 or 9-3. 

Still several brutal games next year.  ND will definitely be improved.  Northwestern is damn tough under Fitzgerald.  @ MSU is, well, no comment.  @Iowa?  Never easy, and probably like this year's PSU game.  Ending with Nebraska and Ohio State back to back is absolutely brutal.  Thankfully both Nebraska and Ohio State play PSU the week before us so no patsy giving them two weeks to prep.

11/22/2010 - 3:15pm True.  I look at this

True.  I look at this upcoming weekend this way - if we lose, few guts will wrench because it is expected.  If we win, this might be right up there with '69 or '97 as the greatest UM wins over OSU in history.  That we could live this dream in reality would take all of life's other troubles - the economy, my boss, car problems, traffic, etc. - and turn them all into sweet, sweet music for 9 months.

11/12/2010 - 12:17pm I was with you in terms of

I was with you in terms of advising caution, but the part about saying Purdue is a better football program than UM?  Them's fightin werds.

11/10/2010 - 11:17am Really?

In relative terms, given we play what 8 freshmen?  The D was phenomenal relative to expectations vs Illinois.  Further, c'mon bro.  You'll be disappointed with 9-3 next year given the current and immediate future state of our defense?  I'd be thrilled. 

11/04/2010 - 3:08pm Listen to yourself you soft

Listen to yourself you soft pansy.  Is the structure of your universe capsizing because God forbit there isn't sufficient order on the MGBoard re posts pro v con RR?  Seriously, get a life, or better yet, get a new team to root for.

11/04/2010 - 3:06pm Why you jerk?  Who are you to

Why you jerk?  Who are you to determine which UM fans are allowed to voice their support on a beloved UM fan site?  Everyone's voice matters.  If I see 100 small negative threads, I'm glad to see guys like this offering one of hopefully 100 positive threads trending in the other direction.  Step off your MGoPoints ePeen.

11/04/2010 - 2:25pm Amazing that we have come to

Amazing that we have come to a point where a guy gets 12 plus points for insulting a fellow UM fan for trying to toss is some optimism.  Pot meet Kettle Colt.  No one gives to shits what you think either.

11/04/2010 - 11:11am No you're right.  Let's just

No you're right.  Let's just use 2 down linemen, and toss the rest of the D in the secondary to support our corners, so we can get gashed for 6-8 yards through the porous line every play, giving up huge runs game after game.  Let's also protect our secondary by giving them 15 yard cushions off the line of scrimmage on 3rd and 7. 

Let's keep not trusting our young secondary, and keep bleeing 80 yard, 7 minute, demoralizing drives, vs a scheme that shuts down the run, gets an occasional sack (wtf is a sack?  I forgot what they look like), maybe gets a turn over or two, but yeah, gives up 4 or so bombs each half.

I'll take my chances.

11/04/2010 - 11:02am It's OK.  I guess I can

It's OK.  I guess I can understand that you're so frustrated at the state of the program that you're reduced to blindly lashing out at anyone and everyone - even fellow UM fans like me, instead of devoting your aggression elsewhere.

11/04/2010 - 11:01am Or perhaps there was a third

Or perhaps there was a third option my patronizing friend who prefers banging up fellow UM fans than Sparty or Buckie - a computer glitch not allowing the paragraph return option to reflect when I saved the post.  It works today.   Happy Sunshine?

11/03/2010 - 5:16pm Dude, this blog drips of

Dude, this blog drips of data/charts/graphs… Does EVERY poster need to go that route?  Or are we not allowed to summarize the facts we see?   OK want data?  Take a look at the yardage UM’s offense has posted against each team it has played this year, relative to how that team’s D has fared against other offenses.  Almost every single time, UM gashed that team for the most yards it has allowed all year.  This, with a QB starting just his first few games, moderate to fair running backs, and above all, a UM defense depriving the offense of a good 8 minutes/2 possessions per game given the inability to get stops or take-aways.  The offense is ranked top 5 in the country, even without all the pieces and without a D to help it get more time!  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


It is only uphill from here.     Have faith.  In Rod We Must All Trust this off season that he learns from his mistakes, and makes the final right move, and gets the right D staff in, and the future is finally all uphill for our beloved Wolverines.

11/03/2010 - 4:53pm Way I see it, as HORRID as

Way I see it, as HORRID as this D has been, we actually had a chance vs PSU and Iowa.  Both games were close down the stretch and needed just 1 or 2 big plays/turnovers to swing them.  As HORRIBLE as we've been on D, we still competed.  I really do like the future, it all boils down to the changes we make at the top on D.

11/02/2010 - 3:17pm Depends

On how we go 5-7.  If our offense is beastly and performs well the rest of the year.  I don't see RR gone even if we lose all the games.  Too much upside to keep him and too much downside to start again from scratch.  However honestly, God bless RR if we lose to both Illinois and Purdue..  He will need it.

I predicted 6-6 or 7-5 this year with:

4 predictable losses  - Iowa, PSU, Wisc, OSU

4 predictable wins - BG, UMass, Indiana, Illinois

4 coin flips - UConn, ND, MSU, Purdue.

So far my prediction has been accurate, and with the only changes being PSU becoming a lost coin flip, and Purdue and Illinois swapping places.  Illinois is now the coin flip, and Purdue, even though an away game, appears a predictable win even for this wretched D, especially with a healty Martin.

All faith is not lost, but we absolutely MUST beat Purdue.  The Illinois win will be very nice if we can get it.  I think we can.  Win this week, win next week.  Lose Wisc/OSU.  7-5, then win a bowl game - 8-5.  Not terrible.

11/02/2010 - 1:09pm Here's how it is going to go down:

Brandon will learn from the fiasco that has been ND for the last 20 years and avoid the head coaching carousel this year even if we go 5-7.  As I mentioned in a prior post and got lambasted by touchy UM fans, aside from obvious no-no's like getting Moeller'd at a local watering hole, RR can rest assured that Brandon's ultimate decision will come down to how RR's offense has performed this year vs the Big 10.  This is the picture I believe Brandon sees:

1.  RR's offense, while still young with a new starter (Denard) has posted incredible numbers this year.

2. Those O numbers are even more impressive given how little time the O has had on the field since the D never makes any stops.  Imagine the O numbers if the D afforeded the extra 7-9 minutes of ball possession a game that a middling D1 D would offer?

3. Brandon will look at the disaster that is the D, but factor in the lack of personnel and experience.  He will note how a power like Florida is struggling at 5-3 losing to, uh, Miss St?  Why?  Young personnel.  Yet is anyone asking for Urban Meyers' head? 

4. At season's end Brandon will meet with RR about major shake ups in the D staff.  The third time will be the charm, and during the off season UM will bring in a stud D coordinator with the chutzpa to tell RR how it is going to be on D, and not allow himself to be pushed in 5 directions, away from the schemes he has confidence running.  Who that will be?  Guess it's bad form to discuss it too much during the recruiting season.

5. Brandon will realize there is really only one direction for this program to go under RR - UP.  The O will only get better with experience, depth and Dee Hart running wild. And the D?  Can it possibly get any worse?  This D reminds me of the O 2 years ago- the worst unit on that side of the ball we will ever again see in our lifetimes.  It can only get better.

6. With RR and a new D coordinator, UM goes 8-4 next year or 9-3 next year and finally beats OSU, but loses to Nebraska.

7. RR signs a long term deal before 2012 season - Denard's senior season, a trip to Dallas vs Alabama, etc. - and UM's D is finally fixed for good, and clear sailing.

10/12/2010 - 11:16am This is the kind of response

This is the kind of response I was looking for - a measured response that could help give me and others who might think like me some insight re my current perspective.  I never realized I'd run into an army of touchy, feely fans hovering like vultures with the FUCK YOU stick dare anyone say anything pertaining to the status of our coach and his performance.  I concede my timing was bad, mid-season, it really is uninspiring how quickly some of you turn on your own fellow fans.

10/12/2010 - 11:05am Brother, re-read.  Really.  I

Brother, re-read.  Really.  I was suggesting the exact opposite about Oregon last year.  I was saying that BECAUSE they were Pac 10 champs, and thus had a powerful spread attack, that it made the fact that Ohio State shut them down more resonant and meaningful to the analysis of whether the spread can be as effective against top flight Big 10 defenses as we'd all like.  You completely misinterpreted what I wrote and still got plenty of points for it from your fans.  Congratz.

10/12/2010 - 10:54am Nah, I just don't stay glued

Nah, I just don't stay glued to a message board 24/7, and actually had dinner, watched Monday Night Football, got up, went to work, now I'm taking a quick break to peek in again.  Some fans like myself reach out with stream of consciousness posts like mine in part just to hear the reaction of other fans, to see if we're way off base in how we are perceiving our coach's performance.  Regardless, while I didn't feel I was attacking RR directly, I can see how any discussion of his job status mid-season is bad form, and for that I take the high road and admit it was poor form by me.  My apologies to my fellow Wolverine fans.  For the record I'd bet I've defended RR more than almost everyone on this board, and will continue to do so throughout the season and beyond.   Now back to work, and let's all cross our fingers for a good result vs Iowa.

10/12/2010 - 10:45am Fair point.  I guess any

Fair point.  I guess any discussion pertaining to the status of our coach, regardless if objective or otherwise, is bad form mid-season.   I meant no harm but I can see how the very topic can be perceived as harmful so my apologies to my fellow Wolverine fans.  How about we just drop 55 on Iowa and hug it out after!  Go Blue.

10/11/2010 - 8:57pm Honestly I think all of you

Honestly I think all of you need to calm down.  The slightest objective post that isn't 10 miles up RR's ass and fans come out of the woodwork to flame and ridicule me, a die hard UM fan.  I'll stick to my guns though.  I hope this team drops 50 on everyone and wins.  I hope Denard wins the Heisman.  But come year end, if our offense fails to evidence effectiveness against either Iowa, Penn State, Wisconsin or OSU, in my eyes RR has failed this season.  That is an objective statement you geniuses.  That is not a slander on RR.  Most of you will judge the season on wins and losses, I merely state the varied metric by which I plan to judge this season, which is devoid of wins and losses, but rather by the offense's effectiveness vs top tier Big 10 Ds.

Flame away. I'm the bad guy.  Gang up on me.  I never knew you were all so touchy.  Wow.

10/11/2010 - 8:48pm fair point.  i thought i was

fair point.  i thought i was clear, but then doesn't everybody.