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you're probably right

a 20-win Michigan team with some quality wins and no bad losses is almost certainly a tournament team.

The B1G tournament probably decides whether you move up or down at the last minute in UMs seeding, bu even with a loss against say, Nebraska, I don't see you guys falling out.

Keep in mind also

that MSU has co-OC and co-DC (for some reason).  Warner and Bollman get $447k and $437k respectively as co-OC for a total of $884k for that "position".  Barnett and Tressell each get $437k as co-DCs for a total of $874k for that "position".

Not all that different than paying Narduzzi $850 as the sole DC before he left and within the going market rate (not sure if it's still in the 80% of P5 range you described).

so here's a question

did some (or maybe several) of these players get bumped up to 4-star status by certain recruiting sites in large part simply because Michigan was recruiting them?  It's widely believed that players get a bump when schools like Alabama offer them, if only because 1) evaluating these kids is an inexact science, 2) there typically isn't much difference between a low-4 and a high-3 star recruit, and 3) some of these kids don't get seen a lot so the sites have to use whatever data points are available, including potential suitors.  It's a plausible theory as far as Alabama is concerned, so is Michigan getting the same consideration too?

In my mind it makes some sense - Michigan is one of the most storied programs in CFB and has a long history of success, so clearly they know what they're doing.  In 2011 Hoke was still largely an unkown quantity, but given that he was at Michigan he would get the benefit of the doubt so the players he and his staff recruited must be pretty good, right?  

For the record I have no idea what other top tier schools recruited any of these guys(with at least some enthusiasm) but is it possible these players weren't really as good as people thought?

Not trying to start a flame war, just curious what people with more knowledge of M's program think.

he could see the field

early and often, given the attrition on MSU's o-line.  I doubt he'll flip but it's worth a look for him.  Plus its a weekend to party on someone else's dime.

hey there's (at least) two of us

here!

I have to say

as a gambling man I love me some UM giving 3 points in this one.  Florida's offense is horrible, and against UMs defense won't be able to get anything going.  With the way Rudock was playing towards the end of the year I would expect M to score more than enough to win.

This is a good draw for you guys, I think you'll win easily.

MSU's turnover margin

is because year in and year out they don't turn the ball over very much.  They lost it 11 times this year, among the best figures in FBS.  They also forced 25 turnovers, among the best in the country.  Doing this year after year isn't luck, it's solid execution on both sides of the ball.

I have no idea if Cook did what you're saying

I did see the players rush over to the student section afterwards, which is to be expected and not a big deal.  But regardless I can only imagine you said exactly the same things when Nik Stauskus was blowing kisses to the Breslin crowd after a 3 pointer on the way to UM win?  Was he a douchebag too or is that just reserved for guys on teams you don't like?  (And for the record Cook was calling plays on the sideline which is hardly having "zero part in" the game).

 

 

I thought it was pretty well established

that MSU players ran to their student section at the end of the UM game (which was confirmed by some posters even on this board) so I'm not sure what you're getting upset about there.  As for the OSU game, I didn't see Cook (or anyone else) running over to the OSU student section at the end, I saw them headed to the MSU student section.  Doesn't mean what you're saying didn't happen but given there's no precedent and the claims are coming from UM fans I'm taking them with a huge grain of salt.

Short fields are not a penalty

But they are also not something that can be relied upon.  At some point teams will stop kicking to Peppers and force M to drive 70+ yards for a touchdown.  That's not something they've shown they can do with any consistency.

the score was 23-21 at that point

a safety ties the game

Sparty fan here

and I check this blog regularly (not just during UM-MSU week) because the writing is good.  I don't spend much time reading about recruiting or whatnot because that doesn't interest me, but the post-game analysis and UV are interesting reads.

I also like the comments because there's some interesting points of view, and I especialy like whatever Space Coyote and alum96 (his stock report each week is one of my faves) have to say - always fair and objective.  Occassionally I take up a conversation when someone makes silly claims like"Izzo can't recruit anymore" or "MSU will suck now that M is good again" but that's what rivalries are about, I guess.

I've wandered over 11W a few times but the content isn't as good.  I also like BHGP, Hammer and Rails, and Bucky's Fifth Quarter because...... the content is good and I like knowing what my rivals are up to.

I'll jump in on this one

Dantonio was next to Watts-Jackson after he got hurt.  My understanding is that Harbuagh found Mark Hollis and they shook hands.  Dantonio meant no slight and was very complimentary of Harbaugh and Michigan in the presser:

after the game, Dantonio called Harbaugh a "good man" and said he "respects the University of Michigan and what coach Harbaugh has done so far and the direction they are going."

On Sunday, Dantonio again emphasized his respect for Harbaugh.

"It's too bad," he said. "In a game, somebody is going to win and somebody is going to lose. And I'm sure that's a tough loss."

 

Idaho State

Kept setting up UNLV on a short field with a variety of turnovers and bad special teams.  Their TD drives went:

28 yards set up by a 51 yards KO return

23 yards set up by a blocked FG returned 54 yards

40 yards set up by an interception

70 yards 

11 yards set up by a blocked punt

6 yards set up by an interception

61 yards

35 yards (FG) end half

80 yards

89 yards

-6 yards missed FG set up by a fumble

INT returned for TD

56 yards

but yeah, it's a whupping.

I am betting

That Minny-Northwestern game is another M00N that is flat out brutal to watch.  I wouldn't be surprised if nobody scores.

I predict that Chris Spielman will wet himself in the process, talking all about "traditional Big 10 Football at its finest".

there's no other true PG on the roster

so regardless of who starts, Winston will get plenty of PT.

If it were me

picking one guy to plug into UMs roster (and I admittedly don't have any great knowledge of their roster), I would take Ezekiel Elliot.  UMs defense is good enough to keep them in most any game, even without a premier edge guy, and a strong running game should be more than enough for Rudcok to not have to make a ton of plays every week.  Right now I just don't see a lot at tailback for M fans to be excited about and having that running gamewould open up everything else on offense.

Yeah, pretty much

Korie Lucious and Chris Allen were both kicked off the team, Summers and Lucas were both suspended at various times, and Izzo spoke openly about how the chemistry on that 2010-11 team was terrible.  He all but admitted he couldn't wait to get those guys through the program and start fresh.

An article from 2012 has a good quote from Summers regarding some of the dynamics on the team back in 2010.  It's not too hard to read between the lines here:                            

"I definitely look back on it, and it was a great ride, to be honest," Summers said of his four-year run at MSU, with appearances in two Final Fours. "I learned a lot and had a lot of fun, but that may have been a gift and a curse. A gift and a curse because you’re young and it’s happening like that, and there's not really a script for how to deal with it. Your coaches try to tell you, but it's hard. ... I don't want to get into all of it, but you're having fun in college, not necessarily being as productive on the court. If it's not helping me get better as a basketball player, you shouldn't be partaking. That's the thing I had to learn."

No problem with what Sherman did here

And I really don't mind the giant middle finger salute to the NCAA, but I'm not a fan of how he singled out Summers' behavior.  Yes, Durrell is accountable for his actions, but by all accounts he's worked hard to get his life back together and is now playing professionally overseas.  Sherman doesn't have the right to air Summers' dirty laundry.

He could have easily said "a teammate" and left it at that.  IMO, using Summers' name is an unfortunate part of this whole thing.

 

is it possible

that everyone backed off Layne because they knew he was headed to MSU and their time was better spent elsewhere?

I have no idea what the story was, obviously, but other schools backing off doesn't always mean that they suddenly don't think he's a good player (especially after being "all over him" earlier).

you're not the only one

Jones has the bigger arm but Barrett is the better QB.  He's more accurate as a passer and is a better athlete.  Jones has the advantage of being able to truck college LBs, but that won't fly in the NFL.  He'll get exposed for what he is - an average athlete with good size for a college QB and a big arm.  

I can't see any of these guys going in the top 10, much less all three of them.  Hack probably gets a mid-first round call, my guess is Cook ends up as a late first/early second round guy, and Jones ends up back at OSU for his junior year.

Great post, alum96

and I agree with your comment here as well, 2016 looks to be a bit of a step back for MSU.  Yes there's some talent in some areas (Terry at QB, London/Scott at RB, etc.) but they will be young and inexperienced at some key positions.

Anyway, just wanted to compliment you on your detailed writeup.  I think you nailed all the big points about MSU this year (personally I think the lack of depth in the secondary could be a real issue) and you did it in an entertaining way.  I really enjoy reading your stuff, great job!

wait

are you actually arguing that Beilein is better than Izzo right now, even though MSU is in the sweet 16 in a rebuilding year while UM isn't even in the NIT?  That doesn't make any sense. 

 

huh?

2009-10 - made final four

2010-11 - 10 seed lost to UCLA in 1st round

2011-12 - 1 seed lost to 4 seed Louisville in the Sweet 16

2012-13 - 3 seed lost to 2 seed Duke in the Sweet 16

2013-14 - 4 seed lost to 7 seed UConn in the Elite 8 (after beating the #1 overall seed).  UConn won the NC

 

So there's 1 Final Four, 2 sweet 16s, and an Elite 8 in your timeline.  One early exit when they were a double digit seed. It's not like they're losing to garbage, they're getting beat by quality teams.  Not sure how this is "underperforming their seed".

both of these were great, well done

and I too really like Yogi's game.  Personally I don't think he gets the attention he deserves; if he played for Duke he'd have Dick Vitale drooling all over him.

I don't understand

the idea that Izzo's recruiting has slipped.  He got punished for the 2013 class which he knew woud be small due to the large number of upperclassmen on his roster that season.  He wanted one of the top guys in Parker that gave him the best shot at a title and it didn't work out (and even if he gets Parker attrition still leaves this team pretty young at a lot of spots).  In many respects he's still paying for that, but there's still talent coming in.

The 2014 class was very solid with Javon Bess (who many considered the best player in Ohio his senior year) and Marvin Clark who is really starting to contribute as a reshman.  For 2015 Izzo has a top-15 ranking with two top-100 players including one McDonald's AA and Swanigan still very much in play.  And Kyle Ahrens was getting a lot of attention from power conference schools before he got injured.

Yeah, Michigan's resurgence under Beilein has made them major players for the best talent in the region (although due to system and style Beilein and Izzo don't seem to cross paths all that often), but Izzo is still getting some really good players.

insightful comment on your part

way to completely ignore my point.

"I think its because no

"I think its because no matter what they do, no one really cares. Michigan is always viewed as generally superior and more important than MSU no matter what they do"

I think people in general (and not just MSU fans) would yell MICHIGAN ARROGANCE! on your statement because that's exactly what that is.  It's one thing to be proud of your university and all the great things they've accomplished.  UM is no doubt a world-class institution, has done more meaningful research and had higher profile graduates than  lots of other places, and generaly speaking has a great reputation academicallly.  All true statements and anyone that goes there should be proud of those facts.  But it's another thing entirely to look down on others and tell them that whatever they've done doesn't matter because they didn't go to Michigan.  It's the epitome of arrogance.

Read my post above about why I never applied to Michigan if you care to.  I am comfortable with the high level of success I've acheived in life.  Believe it or not, I don't seek your approval.

meh

this is a very mediocre MSU team as well.  We have to get excited about any win we can get, especially over a rival.

hm, good one

I guess the implication is that I couldn't get into Michigan so I'm bitter about it?  Lot of assumptions going on there.

If you're interested in the actual story, I never applied to UM because I knew I didn't have the grades to get in - I was way too immature in high school to be serious about my studies.  Fortunately I got my shit straightened out and ended up at a job I enjoy (no it doesn't involve fast food or pizza) that helps people and pays me well.  I'm comfortable with that.

And all without that pesky inferiority complex.  Who knew?

re-read my post

UM fans bring it up at least as much as MSU fans do.

For the record, I could care less, it's harmeless fun both ways.  I don't really engage in it, but I understand what motivates people to fire something back.

Not conceding anything

I'm not sure how to explain what "tougher to pull out a win" means, I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant.  This was a close game that could have gone either way in regulation.

that was a really good game

As a Sparty I'm glad we came out on top.  Beilein is doing an incredible job getting the most of what's left of his roster.  MSU was their own worst enemy at times but I think UM's guys just wore down at the end (MAAR is quite a talent and Albrecht really has a knack for hitting big shots).  I have a feeling it's going to be much tougher to pull out a win down in AA.

Incidentally, when UM fans constantly bring up the "little brother" angle even today (how many times have I read on this site about how people can't wait to put little brother back in his place), you should expect to get "little sister" back at you when we win a game.  

I'll weigh in

Both happened.  Baylor made enough mistakes to give MSU the opportunities, and State was a good enough team to take advantage of them.

Remember, MSU made it's share of mistakes too - they had consecutive drives inside the Baylor 30 in the 4th quarter where they came away with 0 points.  They turned it over on downs with horrible play calling and execution and then Cook's infamous INT.  Whether Baylor wasn't good enough to capitalize (dubious given how they had shredded MSU all game) or MSU was good enough to make the plays to stop them is debateable.  But there's two teams involved all the time and they both have a role in the outcome.

I think you're right here

The D-line will miss Calhoun and Rush, who graduates (especially Rush, he wasn't the most talented guy but he was fundamentally sound, disciplined, and just didn't make mistakes).  There is a ton of talent coming back but the ends will be laregly unproven in terms of in-game experience.  The tackles will be the strength of the MSU front 7 next year.

Waynes is harder to replace.  Mylan Hicks really struggled at times and and while guys like Demetrious Cox and Montae Nicholson will see the field more (one or both could be at safety), the corners are a huge question mark next year.

I think you're right here

The D-line will miss Calhoun and Rush, who graduates (especially Rush, he wasn't the most talented guy but he was fundamentally sound, disciplined, and just didn't make mistakes).  There is a ton of talent coming back but the ends will be laregly unproven in terms of in-game experience.  The tackles will be the strength of the MSU front 7 next year.

Waynes is harder to replace.  Mylan Hicks really struggled at times and and while guys like Demetrious Cox and Montae Nicholson will see the field more (one or both could be at safety), the corners are a huge question mark next year.

I think you're right here

The D-line will miss Calhoun and Rush, who graduates (especially Rush, he wasn't the most talented guy but he was fundamentally sound, disciplined, and just didn't make mistakes).  There is a ton of talent coming back but the ends will be laregly unproven in terms of in-game experience.  The tackles will be the strength of the MSU front 7 next year.

Waynes is harder to replace.  Mylan Hicks really struggled at times and and while guys like Demetrious Cox and Montae Nicholson will see the field more (one or both could be at safety), the corners are a huge question mark next year.

I think you're right here

The D-line will miss Calhoun and Rush, who graduates (especially Rush, he wasn't the most talented guy but he was fundamentally sound, disciplined, and just didn't make mistakes).  There is a ton of talent coming back but the ends will be laregly unproven in terms of in-game experience.  The tackles will be the strength of the MSU front 7 next year.

Waynes is harder to replace.  Mylan Hicks really struggled at times and and while guys like Demetrious Cox and Montae Nicholson will see the field more (one or both could be at safety), the corners are a huge question mark next year.

not to bash Harbaugh

but it's possible that he would lead UM on even with no intent of coming to AA.  He knows he's out in SF at the end of the year and is likely to be traded (and he's fine with this).  He therefore has no interest in "helping" SF and simultaneously hurting his new NFL franchise with an expensive trade where the 49'ers are getting multiple picks. The only leverage he has in that scenario is give the impression that he's thinking about returning to college.  He can also use that leverage to help drive where he gets traded (i.e., trade me to the Jets or I'm going to coach at Michigan and you get nothing).   That lowers his asking price for the team acquiring him and keeps him in control of the situation.

One additional point: Harbaugh is up for an extension regardless of which NFL he ends up coaching (if he in fact stays in the pros).  Thus it's in his interest to get the biggest offer he can from Michigan and use that as leverage for his next pro contract.

eh, as a State fan

I think MSU got a lot of credit for hanging with a very good Oregon team on the road in a tough environment.  I don't think a MAC win instead would have been enough keep them in hunt after the loss to OSU (especially how they were manhandled in that game).  But I think you could be right about the cost/benefit of secheduling tough OOC vs. cupcakes.  The SEC has been proving that for years.

What bothers me most about the SEC narrative is how when a bottom-feeder like Arkansas beats LSU everyone says "look at the depth in that conference, all those teams are so good".  Meanwhile, when OSU struggles against IU people say that the Buckeyes aren't that good.  It's a ridiculous double standard.

sigh

The meme that Izzo's had "a few years of substandard recruiting classes" (or variations thereof) is tired.  It's also false.  I posted the following back in June so it hasn't been updated, but it makes the point:

http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/mbb-recruiting-2015-3-kyle-ahrens-commits-m…

all this said, i think MSU is at best the #3 team in the conference behind Wisky and UM.

[sorry if this is a dupe I copy/pasted in an earlier post and it got eaten by the spam filter]

not quite

the air of superiority came from M's behavior during all the years they were dominating this rivalry.  Before Dantonio ever got there.  It's the notion that MSU wasn't a real rival.  It's the general disrespect and contempt that M viewed the MSU program.  More recently it's the mentality that UM will start beating MSU again because "that's the way it's supposed to be".  Well, that's sure the way it was, and there's a sense of entitlement that grew as a result.  Hart's comments did nothing more than crystallize the way UM looked down on MSU for all those years and treated them like shit.  That's what bothers Dantonio.  Have a look at Brian's post from 2007 as the season began:  

http://mgoblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/spartans-your-profession-is-loser.html

This was symptomatic of the attitude at the time, and that's not to say Brian speaks for the program, but can you honestly say the nobody in the UM program, coaches or players, shared this view?  It's needlessly condescending, as if your place in the college football world is pre-ordained.  To be fair, M is not the only school with this problem (ahem, ND, Alabama) but those aren't our rivals like you are.

If Hart would have never said those words, Dantonio would still be using the disrespect card against M because he hates the way MSU was treated for so long.  He'd just find another rallying point.

not quite

the air of superiority came from M's behavior during all the years they were dominating this rivalry.  Before Dantonio ever got there.  It's the notion that MSU wasn't a real rival.  It's the general disrespect and contempt that M viewed the MSU program.  More recently it's the mentality that UM will start beating MSU again because "that's the way it's supposed to be".  Well, that's sure the way it was, and there's a sense of entitlement that grew as a result.  Hart's comments did nothing more than crystallize the way UM looked down on MSU for all those years and treated them like shit.  That's what bothers Dantonio.  Have a look at Brian's post from 2007 as the season began:  

http://mgoblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/spartans-your-profession-is-loser.html

This was symptomatic of the attitude at the time, and that's not to say Brian speaks for the program, but can you honestly say the nobody in the UM program, coaches or players, shared this view?  It's needlessly condescending, as if your place in the college football world is pre-ordained.  To be fair, M is not the only school with this problem (ahem, ND, Alabama) but those aren't our rivals like you are.

If Hart would have never said those words, Dantonio would still be using the disrespect card against M because he hates the way MSU was treated for so long.  He'd just find another rallying point.

not quite

the air of superiority came from M's behavior during all the years they were dominating this rivalry.  Before Dantonio ever got there.  It's the notion that MSU wasn't a real rival.  It's the general disrespect and contempt that M viewed the MSU program.  More recently it's the mentality that UM will start beating MSU again because "that's the way it's supposed to be".  Well, that's sure the way it was, and there's a sense of entitlement that grew as a result.  Hart's comments did nothing more than crystallize the way UM looked down on MSU for all those years and treated them like shit.  That's what bothers Dantonio.  Have a look at Brian's post from 2007 as the season began:  

http://mgoblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/spartans-your-profession-is-loser.html

This was symptomatic of the attitude at the time, and that's not to say Brian speaks for the program, but can you honestly say the nobody in the UM program, coaches or players, shared this view?  It's needlessly condescending, as if your place in the college football world is pre-ordained.  To be fair, M is not the only school with this problem (ahem, ND, Alabama) but those aren't our rivals like you are.

If Hart would have never said those words, Dantonio would still be using the disrespect card against M because he hates the way MSU was treated for so long.  He'd just find another rallying point.

lol

says the person that posted a screed above about some claim I apparently made about M being a cesspool of athletics and some circle-jerk that may be happening on another board.

Here's my position on this whole thing:

1) It's dumb.  All of it.  Both sides using silly motivational ploys is nonsense, but every team does it, so whatever.

2) I have no problem with M planting a stake.  I have no problem with MSU responding with a late TD.  M should not expect to do things that they know any other team will seize upon as a motivational tool and not got some retaliation in return.

3) No one has any moral high ground here and I never claimed such.

4) Brady's apology wasn't needed (at least not publicly).  In my mind it was settled on the field as it should have been.

5) It's dumb.  All of it.

 

but the thing is

Dantonio has never done this to another opponent.  Ever.  He didn't even do it last year against UM even though the game was well in hand.  That is despite Lewan's tough talk and overly-aggressive behavior.  So maybe it's something about the behavior of UM that he is responding to.

here's why Dantonio still clings to "little brother"

Yes, because it still works.  But mainly because it is the epitome of arrogance and hubris that Dantonio doesn't like.  UM owned MSU for years, and what eats at Dantonio is air of superiority that came with it.  It's one things to get your brains beat in (OSU has done it to us for years, and only recently have we started to turn the tide against Nebraska), but it's unpalatable to him to have be treated like dogshit in the process.  OSU and Nebraska never did, but UM did (and arguably still does).  That's the "respect your opponent" that he's talking about.

So yeah, it's an old statement, but it's perfectly representative of how UM treated MSU for years when you guys were dominating the rivalry.  He still brings it up because he still sees the same kind of behavior - like planting the stake - only now he's in a position to do something about it.

I don't recall

Dantonio ever claiming "moral superiority".  He was responding to behavior he doesn't like.  What do you do when someone intentionally walks all over you?

If Hoke would do it

Dantonio wouldn't have to.

actually

I agree with you here.  Settled on the field.  As far as I'm concerned Hoke didn't need to apologize (certainly not publicly) and the issue was dead.