Wanting a 22-25 person 2012
At times I've certainly been part of the wanting a big recruiting class this year due to the talent in the midwest and the great players Michigan seems to be in good standing with. But thinking about it recently it seems:
a) kinda scummy, considering those who would leave are players we were excited about as recruits just a few years ago.
b) like losing some of these players would lead to potential depth issues, and more youth on the field yet again in the coming seasons.
Right now, the team is at 18 scholarships, and those who could be "cut" to make room would be this seasons redshirt juniors. Currently those are:
RB Mike Cox
SR Roy Roundtree
SR Terrence Robinson
TE Brandon Moore
OG Ricky Barnum
OC Rocko Khoury
OG Elliott Mealer
OT Patrick Omameh
LB Kenny Demens
CB J.T. Floyd
S Jordan Kovacs
I don't think any of the OL (at least not more than 1) won't be asked back, because depth will already be thin in 2012 on the line, No way Kovacs, Demens, or Roundtree lose their spots, being multiple year starters. I doubt Moore would leave either since we lose Koger and have mostly young TEs behind him. And I could see Robinson leaving, except we lose Odoms, Stonum, Hemmingway, and Kelvin Grady. And Cox is to some our most talented RB, we'll have to wait and see with him, if he can make an impact this year.
So if only 1 or 2 of these players don't come back, we are then hoping some of those who don't make it as starters, decide to transfer. And unfortunately, looking at our depthchart, behind the starters I just don't see a lot of room for transfers to not impact depth in the 2012 or 2013 season, before these recruits can make much of an impact.
There's also the possibility of season-long attrition. I don't think anyone would've predicted Justin Turner transfering, but he did.
(Or a bunch of other defensive backfield players for that matter).
Please do not make a case for oversigning.
Has Mealer's shoulder healed enough for him to be a contributor?
Even if it hasn't I really hope he doesn't get "cut" as the OP put it. With as much as that guy and his family has gone through, I hope the coaches keep around.
There's always going to be players leaving for reasons you don't expect. Hoke is preparing for attrition that happens everywhere and he's also factoring in the fact that a few more may leave because of the coaching philosophy change.
There should be further attrition. There always is. I refuse to believe that we only suffer 3 casualties after a coaching change between now and signing day. If that is it then great but I don't see it.
As for not renewing a 5th year, yeah it kinda sucks. I can live with it though knowing that we aren't sending guys away empty-handed after only 1-2 years. These kids have been in class for 4 years, they've earned the degree that they were promised when they signed with us. Yeah it feels like crap but if the staff decides to not bring back a couple guys for a fifth year, I can live with that. There's a difference between doing that and SEC-style oversigning.
There really should be a way to keep these guys in school and pay for their fifth year without counting them towards scholarship numbers. They should sign an agreement saying that they won't play another intercollegiate down and keep school/rent/books paid for, but not counting against limits as a scholarship athlete.
I wonder if someone with enough cash could do this legally. Like if Ross or someone could set up a fund to pay scholarships out to athletes who redshirted but didn't have their fifth year renewed.
There are a couple of options. They could become GA's, and get school paid for while helping the team.
Also they could take the Mundy route (assuming they have completed their undergrad) and play their fifth year at a school with a degree program not available at Michigan. I imagine lot's of MAC schools would take fifth year Big Ten players.
The GA option is a good one, and I hadn't thought of that. Honestly if they have their degree and they're not in the two-deep, I see no reason to keep them, M held up their end of the bargain. It's more with the kids who need the extra year because of football and then lose their funding; Pahokee isn't exactly Grosse Point, MI or Kenilworth, IL and I suspect a lot of these guys couldn't pay OOS tuition at a flagship school, even just for one year.
be "cut," kids like Teric Jones, Terrance Robinson, Brendin Hawthorne, Brendan Gibbons, Isaiah Bell and maybe Drew Dileo and Jordan Paskorz (playing behind underclassmen Cam Gordon and Jake Ryan) can reasonably expect not to ever see playing time in the new systems and go someplace where they will, like Cullen Christian did.
They love Drew Dileo. He isn't going anywhere, but the point still holds true.
Why do you assume this? Most of those guys hardly ever played under Rodriguez. The coaching change might be just what they need. Hawthorne, for instance, garnered a little buzz this spring after seemingly looking like a career special-teamer under RR.
I'm not comfortable singling out anyone and saying he "would be wise" to leave. Everyone on the team has a clean slate with this staff, not to mention that they may simply enjoy going to this school.
Only because of Cullen Chrisitan, Ray Vinopal, and DJ Williamson. I loved all 3 of those kids and had them on my 2011 depth chart. I was especially excited about Christian stepping in and Vinopal was a good contributor last year. All 3 were underclassmen, all 3 left. Now I think it's more likely that underclassmen who were recruited by RR will be more likely to move on than upperclassmen recruited by Carr. I don't want it to happen, but before I couldn't even imagine it. After Vinopal, Christian, and Williamson all left now I can. I never said "would be wise."
I agree that further attrition is possible, if not likely, but I have a problem with people saying, in effect, "Here's a list of guys that are just taking up space." Over the years, we've had many guys who emerged late in their careers to become key contributors. Heck, just last year James Rogers turned out to be arguably our best corner after never playing before. There's no need to name names.
As for Christian, Vinopal and Williamson, we don't know that any of those three left because they thought they couldn't hack it here. They could have left for any possible reason.
Then maybe the whole thread should be wiped.
As great as this recruiting class is, I can't see how we are going to fit in another few OL and at least one or two WR without hitting around 25 total commits, and that kind of worries me.
/debbie downer
It has been posted here that Jim Stefani, a Michigan grad and recruiting blogger, thinks the coaching staff is recruiting to fill a 25+ player class. That suggests they are expecting attrition.
Lets see how everything plays out in the new systems before we start saying kids should be "cut" from the team.
I'm not advocating cutting anyone, I'm saying that wanting a 25 person recruiting class may mean "cutting" some 5th years if 7 more players don't transfer or leave for other reasons. And I think that those losses, will have an impact on the team over the next 2 years due to experienced depth issues.
Aren't scholarships awarded on a year-by-year basis? If that's the case, then can we simply choose to not renew their "scholarship" for such players like Brendan Gibbons perhaps?
The question you just posed is the mindset held by the SEC as it pertains to recruiting. Technically you are right but as long as the player is in good standing (academic, disciplinary) then it's a given amongst schools that don't oversign that the kid will get four years so he at least gets his degree.
For better or worse, cutting underperforming 5th year players is standard practice just about everywhere, not just exclusive to the SEC.
With that said, this exercise is mostly just insulting to the redshirt juniors currently on the team. Lets see how things play out next year before debating which players should be cut, if any.
The first poster mentioned Gibbons, who is a RS sophomore, not a fifth year. If he were at Alabama...I think we all know what would happen. This will not happen at M.
That post was hidden, causing me to fail to keep up with the thread. My bad...I guess.
No worries. This new system is tough to track sometimes.
but then we would be douchebags.
Scholarship players at Michigan are guaranteed 4 years as long as they stay eligible. Other conferences do not go by this rule and use the year-by-year rule, but we only use that for walk-ons who have later earned one year scholarships.
Brandon Gibbons gets singled out way too much as an "expendable" player. Yes, he had a poor season, but he was a true freshman. It's not out of the question that he could improve.
Agree. Plus, for some reason, I think he's due for a Brabbs vs. Washington moment at some point in his career.
You all do realize that an entire season of football will be played before these kids can even officially sign their LOI. Between now and the day they set foot on campus, I think it is highly likely we could sign 25 in this class and have room. Some players on the fence will come back just to see how things play out under the new staff. After a year some will not like the amount of PT they are seeing and no doubt transfer. Happens all the time and more frequently during a coaching change.
There has been talk on other boards about getting some of the 5th year guys on the field with an academic scholarship so they wouldn't count towards the 85.
You can't do that. If you came in with an athletic scholarship you are forever counted in the 85 if you are on the team. If you come in under an academic scholarship you have to participate in school for a year under the academic sholarship before joining the football team in order to avoid being included in the 85 limit.
"15.5.1.2.2 Exception—Receipt of Institutional Academic Aid Only. In football or basketball, a
student-athlete who was recruited by the awarding institution and whose only source of institutional financial aid is academic aid based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, may compete without counting in the institution’s financial aid team limits, provided he or she has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.300 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution."
It's more a matter of depth than anything. Sparty fans are saying we're recruiting so well because we can guarantee immediate playtime but we have too much depth in spots. RR recruited for depth at Slot Receiver and Nickel Back yet now we don't have a dedicated Slot Reciever or Nickel Back spot. Additionally RR overrecruited the RB spot, we have 8 RB's on scholarship even though RR schemed D'Rob as our primary rusher. Most of the Nickel Backs moved to Safety, and a few Slots can be WR's (and Cam Gordon moved from WR to FS to SamLB) but the rest of these kids can't move from, say SR to TE or from RB to FB. Hoke, at the very least, will still give them all a chance to compete. More than you can say for the SEC.