Section 21 cheerleaders and stadium etiquette
At the State game I was mostly surrounded by Spartans. A few of them were very annoying, but the fans that bugged me the most in the immediate area were a couple with Maize 'n Blue gear. Why? As far as I could see, they had a poor grasp of stadium etiquette, at least as I understand it. I'm accustomed to standing up often for big plays as the "standing" wave cascades upward from the field. No big deal ... I usually enjoy the process and it seems healthier than sitting for the whole game. But, outside the student section I rarely see people standing continuously. That's what these two fans, who were apparently boyfriend and girlfriend, were doing.
When it became clear that this was going to be their baseline posture, I decided to engage them in conversation. (They turned my seat into an obstructed-view location. It was that simple.) I had to reach over a row to do so and the woman was closest, so I started with her. When I asked whether she wouldn't mind sitting for "less important plays" she gave me a really nonlinear answer along the lines of "GO BLUE DEFENSE AHHHHHHH!!!" Ever accidentally step on a cat's tail? Remember the sound the cat made? Multiply that by six or seven and you'll have some idea of how the chick sounded. It hurt my ears.
It was my brother-in-law's turn, so he tried poking the guy, who went ape$hit. In spectacularly nonlinear fashion, he started screaming to everyone in the area about how Michigan hadn't beaten State in many hundreds of days and how we needed to STAND UP and support the team. The doofus was the self-appointed spirit bunny of Section 21. Even the meathead Spartans behind me were stunned at the outburst.
Anyway, I'll spare the readers the rest of the details. They settled down a bit and, shortly after the dude screamed himself hoarse in the third quarter, they left (!). So much for the cheerleader role ...
Were they justified in standing up in a sea of sitting people? Spirit aside, I just wanted to see the game. I honestly didn't understand why they couldn't sit like everyone else (since their own view would not have been obstructed). What do MgoBloggers think of this?
October 14th, 2010 at 2:00 PM ^
I was that guy(along with a friend of mind and a complete stranger two seats down) that stood up the virtually the entire UCONN game. Our section was a bunch of DOWN IN FRONT types like the OP. Sure we took a lot of sh!t but we stood up and I hope all diehards would do the same.
I say if you want to sit down and knit then you should stay home. Timeouts, TV timeouts, quarters, halftime are plenty of time for rest. If you need more then STAY HOME.
I repeat.
I say if you want to sit down and knit then you should stay home. Timeouts, TV timeouts, quarters, halftime are plenty of time for rest. If you need more then STAY HOME.
October 14th, 2010 at 2:19 PM ^
you are so hardcore.
did you have a red bull today?
October 14th, 2010 at 2:02 PM ^
I think a simple strategy for us that want to change the atmosphere at UM (ie actually be loud like other hostile stadiums) is for us to actually try and buy seats lower in the bowl.
If we get get people in the lower bowl to stand (and they usually do) then it will trickle up to the masses. Hopefully the DOWN IN FRONT types will get the message and stop coming to games. There are plenty of people willing to come to UM games and actually cheer. Other UM fans will take their place and the gameday atmosphere will be better for it.
October 14th, 2010 at 4:32 PM ^
I have a much better idea. Instead of relying on the Trickle-Up theory (so to speak), why not hire "enforcers" to serve as ushers and threaten the death of loved ones to all fans who refuse to stand. That should do it. And there will be no good excuses - the elderly, handicapped, toddlers, etc. will all be forced to stand - the idea being that if one person is excused, others are going to request a waiver as well. In fact, lets bag the additional handicapped seating altogether and fill it with standers! Even better yet, the best way to get people to stand would be to remove all possible objects to be used as seats (bleachers, railings, steps, etc.). That way, there'll be no question and no one will have a problem. There, that one is for free. The next one will cost everyone.
October 26th, 2010 at 6:23 PM ^
And then when your 65/decide to bring your 4 year old kid to his first Michigan game ever you'll wonder who those assholes are that keep you from seeing the game you've loved for all those years/first taste of Michigan football. If you are all about that energy, but tickets next to the student section and realive the glory years, otherwise, be considerate to those other fans who want to enjoy the same game. Also, scream your lungs out sitting down, a little noise never hurt anybody.
October 14th, 2010 at 2:13 PM ^
Round and round these threads go, over and over again.
No one is going to change their opinion on this. We have an enormous stadium that is very quiet and at least part of that is because we have a lot of alums/fans/whatever that refuse to became a part of the experience in the stadium. Section 1, others, you can deny this all you want, but the noise in the stadium on Saturday was pathetic.
But, U of M also has some of the classiest and most respected fans in the country. I'd love our stadium to be like Death Valley at night on gameday, but I'd never want people to be reporting on U of M fans taking a dump in a cooler, cheering a first down by saying "bitch," or calling entire racial groups a certain epithet.
Can we have it both ways? Maybe not.
October 14th, 2010 at 2:24 PM ^
I make noise on every defensive play. When I am in the student section I stand the entire game because that is proper etiquette in the student section. While I wish all 100,000+ Michigan fans would stand the whole game and yell while M is on defense, I understand that its not going to happen. As long as you make noise while Michigan is on defense (especially the big plays) I don't care whether you stand or not.
Back to the question at hand, the two people in question could have supported Michigan just as much by sitting down and making noise - as long as the noise was in the proper scope of the football game (i.e. not yelling during timeouts or using profanity profusely). If they wanted to stand, they should have bought student tickets and had them validated.
October 14th, 2010 at 2:28 PM ^
October 14th, 2010 at 4:50 PM ^
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not mean to imply that the handicapped seating was a bad idea, if only because it was the subject of litigation and Michigan settled that litigation by agreeing to expand handicapped seating (not to mention that that was the right thing to do!) . . .
October 14th, 2010 at 3:58 PM ^
My section was standing the whole time. I was in section 17. Every other time I've gone to a game my section would sit. I'd prefer to stand the whole game.
October 14th, 2010 at 4:26 PM ^
whatever they want. And then think it's ok.
You can make as much noise sitting, maybe more, as standing.
If all the rows in front of you are standing, stand, and if someone is sitting and complaining, explain to them that if they can get the first row, then second, and third...all the way up to us...to sit, you'll sit too.
If everyone in the whole section is sitting, guess what? You're just an asshole if you're the only one standing. Just about every section stands on big plays, so wait. You being a dick is not going to get the whole crowd to stand, and you're actually making the Stadium less loud, because the only yelling they're doing is at you, because they can't see the play to tell when to get loud anyway.
You're time is always better spent creating noise, and encouraging others to get loud, at the right times, than it is trying to get everyone to stand. Standing makes no noise. Yelling and clapping and stomping does. Noise creates on on field effect. Standing does not. You all look the same from the field, standing or sitting.
The Student Section keeps being held up as a model, but they're the last to show up for games, and often the first to leave when it's going bad. So there are whole portions of games (I like to call it "the first quarter") where they're making far less noise than everyone else...because they can't even bother to be there. Drinking may make you loud, but often it makes you late, and loud for all the wrong reasons.
As many have said, you're not a better fan by being an asshole. And you're definitely not a better person. Get over yourself.
October 14th, 2010 at 5:18 PM ^
Ok, since i don't like you I am going to go through your post
You can make as much noise sitting, maybe more, as standing.
>>>False, it is basic physics and physiology that a person is louder standing than they are sitting. When you are sitting you are compressing your diaphragm and lungs. Therefore you have both less force to create higher air pressure inside your lungs to yell and less air capacity in your lungs. There is a reason the first thing beginning runners are taught is to never sit after you run. You recover faster by standing since you are not compressing your lungs increasing your air capacity.
You're time is always better spent creating noise, and encouraging others to get loud, at the right times, than it is trying to get everyone to stand. Standing makes no noise. Yelling and clapping and stomping does. Noise creates on on field effect. Standing does not. You all look the same from the field, standing or sitting.
>>>You can yell louder and longer by standing. Like I said above, standing increases your air capacity and the force your diaphragm exerts against your lungs.
The Student Section keeps being held up as a model, but they're the last to show up for games, and often the first to leave when it's going bad. So there are whole portions of games (I like to call it "the first quarter") where they're making far less noise than everyone else...because they can't even bother to be there. Drinking may make you loud, but often it makes you late, and loud for all the wrong reasons.
>>>Since i can remember going to games (most likely the late 80s are the earliest memories I have), the only time the student section shows up and leaves early the cupcake games against the MAC, 1AA, and the bottom of the Big 10. Lets be honest here. Even if they are late, they still make way way way more noise than the senior citizens in section 1.
Next time you try to bitch out someone, learn basic physics and human physiology.
October 14th, 2010 at 6:01 PM ^
a person standing and expanding said diaphragm... alone in a section of seated individuals... is not making enough noise to make an argument for this. further, individuals standing up and impeding the sight lines of people seated are likely decreasing the amount of noise because the people behind them are unable to see the action and, in turn, react.
in a perfect world we're all 25 and able to stand for hours, yelling indefinitely at volumes of unfathomable levels. but we're not. the people who want to stand are in the minority. in the opinion of several people on this board it is not defensible to insist on standing in a section where 70-80% (if not WAY more) of the people want you to be sitting. just as much as people are saying "if you want to sit, watch from home" - if you want to stand, go into or near the student section. or in the section where people often do want to stand. because you're the minority compared to the majority, who wants to stand only in instances where "highlight" action is occurring.
does this suck for those who want to be rowdy? absolutely. does it sucking make it acceptable to say "fuck it" and stand up, ignoring dozens of people yelling to sit down? no.
this isn't Nam. there are rules.
October 14th, 2010 at 6:14 PM ^
I would rather eat a cyanide pill than sit with the wet blankets in the sitting sections. Death is more appealing than listening to down in front.
October 15th, 2010 at 2:21 AM ^
It were true...
October 15th, 2010 at 7:21 AM ^
you can join in if you want. but thanks for the douchetastic response.
October 15th, 2010 at 7:31 AM ^
i'd say both of you should just avoid hitting the reply button when you see the other's respective icon.
October 14th, 2010 at 6:54 PM ^
I would say that a large number of people want to stand. In fact, it would seem that 70-80% of the people in this thread want to stand. At the games, we've just gotten beaten down over the years by the very vocal people behind us, so a lot of people don't even try to stand.
Please stop saying that people have to be in their 20's to stand. I'm older than that, and my mom and aunt are obviously much above that. We all stand. Our family has been there longer than most of the people around us in section 12, so we've seen how the culture has changed. People definitely stand more than they did before. What has gotten worse is the "down in front" crowd. My reaction hasn't really changed, but they have gotten increasingly vulgar and obnoxious. I honestly just try to ignore the few holdouts anymore, because they obviously aren't rational about it. I've been that way since being told to sit down during the 4th quarter of the Braylon Game.
October 15th, 2010 at 2:35 AM ^
Don't represent 1% of the people in the Stadium. Even the whole student section Isn't a quarter of the Stadium.
Maybe more people want to stand than they used to, but if 80% of the people in your section are standing, it's those complaining that are going to have the problem. But if it's really 20% that want to stand, why is their view more important than the majority of your whole section?
If it's true that 80% of the Stadium wants to stand, the whole Stadium would be standing, and those that don't want to would probably be looking to not come anymore. But the fact that there are such problems tells me that most don't want to stand for every single play, and it's those that are that are causing the problems.
I personally would prefer to stand than sit for the whole game. But I'm going to do what my section does. Because that's just being a polite human being.
October 15th, 2010 at 2:30 AM ^
As soon as you publish a study with the decibel difference from people in a large arena standing vs. sitting, please let me know. Till then, I say the sound difference is negligible, and certainly offset by the ability to more loudly stamp your feet, which is limited when your standing because you can only use one leg, and to do so too forcefully will throw you off balance. You can use three parts of your body to make noise, rather than two.
Yelling "longer" has very little point, because of the play clock. No pre-play is going to be so long that it requires a lot of extra endurance for yelling. So that point is pretty moot.
And if you think that the student section isn't the last one to fill up every week, you haven't ben paying attention. And they're just as likely to be the first to leave if we're getting our ass handed to us as any blue blood section, not just the snoozer games. Too many sorority girls and event day fans in that section too. And they make more noise than the senior citizens, but they're not doing it if they're not there. So apparently constant noise is deathly important for the games....as long as it doesn't interfere with tailgating or drinking. Till that's done, everyone else can make noise, because I've got to get my buzz on.
Next time you want to make a personal attack, come with something that actually makes any sense.
October 15th, 2010 at 7:54 AM ^
Best example is of singers and jazz musicians (particularly trumpet players). Do you ever see a classical singer in an opera/gospel/symphony sit? No, because standing has a huge effect on the volume one can project. What would I know I only play the trumpet and french horn.
Here is a couple of citations from a published research study relevant to the topic of voice loudness and posture.First one is from a regular research article and the second is from a review article on the physiology of the accepted practices of voice training in singers.
E Vilkman et. al. Logopedics Phoniatrics. Vol 23 (1998) p. 11-19
Proctor, DF. The Physiologic basis of voice training. Anals of the NY Academ. Science. Vol 155. p. 208-228
stomping is irrelevant and is a red herring for your argument. Secondly, stomping is low frequency component that is easily absorbed.
False about the student section. That is a complete lie you stated. I have been in the student section for the past five seasons and the only times all of us don't show up on time is for the tin cans. I think it is you who are not paying attention. What would I know I only sit in the middle of the student section (section 30, row 12). False about us leaving too. The student section last week was the last section to leave when sparty was handing it to us. I could look over to section 20-15 and it was barren at the end of the 4th quarter last week. Those sorority girls were making more noise in the 4th quarter while your rich lame asses were heading out the beat traffic. The student section is the only shred of intimidation the stadium holds. If it wasn't for us, the big house would resemble Hill auditorium
learn basic science. It is not even higher ed science. It is basic physics and biology one should have learned way back in high school.
FYI, I am not an engineer. I am a biophysicist.
October 15th, 2010 at 7:55 AM ^
you make my head hurt. the student section, dating back to when many of us were students, has always filled in late, been a hybrid of disinterest and fanaticism and provides varied volume depending on the game.
you're bordering self-righteousness, though, when you claim the student section is "the only shred of intimidation" and consistently cite a superior "us." the student section existed before this year and it will exist after you graduate.
October 15th, 2010 at 10:00 AM ^
True, BUT . . .
Regardless of the year we are discussing (2010, 1997, 1985, etc.), the student section is consistently the loudest and most spirited section of the stadium as a whole. You have to admit that there is no comparison. And I don't think its necessarily self-righteous for the poster to use the first-person when it is clear that the student section he/she assumedly sits in is the loudest section of the stadium this year. Also, why deny current students the pride and fuel the fire of the dispute between students and alumni about standing vs. sitting, keys vs. yelling, etc.? I can tell you that students at basketball games in my day (1993-1997) spent a lot of time and energy trying to get alumni across the court off of their a--es.
October 15th, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^
we do the same thing at Yost. The only time the fans in the general admission across from the student section ever stand or make any noise is when we have to literally chant "Stand up old people."
October 26th, 2010 at 6:29 PM ^
Uh where have you been the last 3 years. There are hundreds of seats at the top of the student section that, if they fill at all, only stay filled in the 2nd/3rd quarter. There are a lot of student who want to be part of the tradition, but don't really care about football (if you don't believe me, candidly ask your nearest friend who was in a sorrority or much of East Quad). Besides, as much as a I would like to convince my liver and receding hair line otherwise, we can't all stay 18-21 forever.
October 14th, 2010 at 5:58 PM ^
Here's a little fact for you. This year, every defensive play is a big play. Our defense it quite bad and they need the crowd for every play. I don't know why it's hard for people like you to grasp this.
October 14th, 2010 at 6:05 PM ^
basically you're saying there should be a memo sent out that says "if you're not willing to stand all game, don't come" since an admitted minority number of fans would like to stand all game? why don't we allow megaphones? i'm sure there's a lot of fans who feel they want to be able to be as LOUD AS POSSIBLE. or vuvuzelas? those sound fun. how about i sit right behind you and argue with my wife for 3 hours? i have the right to and i'd love to be able to get it out of the way while UM is playing.
it honestly feels like the people arguing that they can stand all game are also the people who've never been bugged to hell by someone at a public event. kinda like that joke "every group of friends has that (insert negative adjective) guy nobody likes but still lets hang out. if you can't name him, it's probably you."
October 14th, 2010 at 6:27 PM ^
I would be open for vuvuzuelas. That would be awesome.
October 14th, 2010 at 6:59 PM ^
When did it get decided that the standers are a minority? We're the polite majority that sit down when cranky people behind us start whining.
I would say it is pretty obvious most of have been bugged to hell by someone at a public event. It happens to us so often that we get tired of hearing about it, come here to vent about it, and then get to read about it from people who probably enjoy the game a lot more from the comfort of their living room.
October 15th, 2010 at 11:29 AM ^
interesting
October 14th, 2010 at 8:16 PM ^
as those people who insist on using profanity in the stands. And I've seen this from both "standers" and "sitters". And when it comes down to it - if you are calling people Assholes in the stands ... then you too are the worst part of a gameday experience.
There isn't any reasonable reason to use profanity .... just look throughout your area and see all the kids listenng to you. Its not standing vs. sitting they remember ...
Go Blue !
October 14th, 2010 at 8:32 PM ^
My rule is "When in Rome". If everyone stands I stand, if everyone sits I sit. I would rather stand most of the game. I'm tall and hate kneeing the old lady that inevitably sits in front of me in the back, but I guess I can't control that.
Last season I sat very low in section 9 for the Penn State game. That was my worst experience in Michigan Stadium. Not only did M get their ass kicked, but that section was full of whiny people complaining about a few people standing (not me). I finally snapped and called one middle-aged man a cry baby, and told him to go home if he didn't like it. I'm sure he had had season tix there for several years but if you aren't going to get up and cheer then fricken go home. He kept is mouth shut the rest of the game. As I alluded to, I'm a pretty big guy, he was probably about to shit himself in fear. I'm a gentle giant, but sometimes I have to use my size to put someone in their place.
October 15th, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^
Bro.
You no doubt made a great impression on people -- your fellow alums, yes? YES? -- who have been sitting there and supporting the Atletic Department longer than you have. Congratulations!
The end of this story really does sort of work itself out, when, at the next game, you are gone and either watching at home on tv, or scalping another ticket, in some other area of the Stadium, and bothering other people, leaving the the folks who you bothered last week, to enjoy the next game. And good riddance to you, the prick who made everybody miserable last week.
October 14th, 2010 at 9:28 PM ^
Crap. I thought this thread was about cheerleaders.
/turns around, shuffles out the door.
October 14th, 2010 at 11:55 PM ^
Cool, I found a topic to read that has more posts than a Tom VH diary about Dee Hart! What an interesting thread about human behavior. A bunch of people said it but there is not going to be an acceptable solution for everyone who purchases a ticket and attends the game. Whatever our individual position is we are all going to have to cope with something that isn't exactly how we would like it.
It's never going to be perfect so handle the best you can and focus on the game. I've had all sorts of people sit by me through the last 20 years (sitters, standers, drunks, loud mouths, etc.) and I have never allowed them to rent space in my head and ruin my experience (except my friend who is a ND fan that I had to punch).
October 15th, 2010 at 8:25 AM ^
Your couch.
If you really hate standing, don't go to the game. If the greeter at Walmart can handle a few hours on his feet, so can you.
I know others have stated that personal tendancies are unlikely to change, but you have to start somewhere. If people want to sit, that is their prerogative and they are entitled to it.
But for the love of God, don't discourage others from actually being involved.
Ridiculous.
October 15th, 2010 at 10:14 AM ^
and the debate that never changes.
There is always going to be a divide between the 'young new grad standing group" and the "old blue hair down in fronts"
I think that there is a happy medium but there is a pretty simple solution. If people are standing in front of you its a lot easier to just stand as well than trying to create a domino effect and get 40 rows of people in front of you to sit down one row at a time.
What it comes down to is that it is never just the row in front of you that is standing up, its the row in front of them and the row in front of them and yes the row in front of them.
So be a cranky old bastard if you want but its not like the metal ridged benches at Michigan Stadium are so cozy that sitting down is more pleasurable than standing.
October 15th, 2010 at 10:16 AM ^
The old men "bragging" about the fact that they have been supporting the athletic department longer than the young men.
No isht, you are old, obviously you have been doing everything a lot longer than those younger than you. Like complaining.
October 26th, 2010 at 6:33 PM ^
And if you aren't be an asshole and strike up a conversation with them at half time, possibly offering jobs that they create with their Michigan educations.
October 15th, 2010 at 10:19 PM ^
No offense, but I'm surprised that this many people have such strong opinions about sitting and standing.
October 16th, 2010 at 3:49 AM ^
i hate people that are ignorant and rude and do nothing but stand and yell...but i already hate people who just sit there ALL GAME and moan and groan and don't ever yell or root on the maize and blue. i yell like crazy during the game (not harrassing anyone) just AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH when they have the ball! we need the stadium to be LOUDER and the only way thats going to happen is if more people yell...ps- you dont have to stand to yell,......you can sit and yell lol
October 17th, 2010 at 10:53 AM ^
Amazing passion from both sides...I am just a popcorn person, going up and down depending on whats going on in the game, though I am usually one of the earlier ones standing when we do something triumphant...but still while I probably would be slightly annoyed if the person in front of me stood for 100% of the game, it would be a cold day in hell before I would say down in front to anyone, dear god revoke my tickets that day.
Aug
October 18th, 2010 at 1:15 PM ^
I Just went to the Iowa game and stood and sat as the crowd went. In the 4th my knee (old injury) started to bother me so I sat. It was amazing that I could still watch the game on the big screen and still enjoy it. I rested for a bit and stood back up. Not really hard. I sat during all the TV timeouts while people stood. Adaptation in a wonderful thing if you know how to use it!
October 21st, 2010 at 6:55 PM ^
Maybe u should stand upppppppppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 26th, 2010 at 4:27 PM ^
That everyone is right with their assumptions about UM's fan base. That the blue hairs would rather use all of their energy bitching about other fans than to use that energy to positively support the team.
Oh and that Section 1 is obviously 90 years old and thinks way to much of himself.
October 26th, 2010 at 4:43 PM ^
at the University Course? I'll play you even. No way you'd let a "90 year old" beat you, right?
October 26th, 2010 at 5:14 PM ^
would you be able to make it through 18? I mean if you cant stand for a game how can you play 18 holes?????
October 27th, 2010 at 12:21 AM ^
And I'll walk all 18.
Are we on? Even-up, $100 nassau?
October 27th, 2010 at 10:19 AM ^
when someone calls out another person to show up, in person, for some sort of event, be it fight or... in this case... golfing (lulz Michigan difference?), thread needs to be locked bc shit done jumped a damn shark