OT: Where does Miggy Stand?
Well, if you didn't see Miguel Cabrera's dramatic go-ahead ninth inning homerun tonight, here it is:
http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/70087564/v32843503/
I know this is a cheesy radio topic, but where does the back-to-back MVP stand currently amongst the all-time greats? How high can he go by the time he decides to call it quits? I say he has a chance to be among the top three hitters in the history of baseball when it's all said and done.
I'd put Miggy just behind Pujols at the moment.
Miggy has back to back AL MVP's, 8x all star, 3x batting champ, triple crown winner!, and World Series champ. That's not hall of fame worthy? There's guys in the hall with much much less. He's only 31. He's got 2-4 more MVP type years. Followed by 2-3 very solid years.
He will go down as the greatest hitter in MLB history when it's all said and done.
Pupils and Miggy will both be in the hall.
How far beyond "definite Hall-of-Famer" does one have to get to become an all-time great?
Not so. I actively participate on the message board for UVA baseball, which is heavily populated with Nats and O's fans, but also Braves, Red Sox, Yankees, etc., and the very same conversation has been had in the past there too. It's not just Tigers fans who are in awe of Cabrera's accomplishments.
I'm on boards with fans from all teams. After Cabrera hit his home run last night, the general comment was "Oh, Cabrera being Cabrera again. Why don't they just give him MVP #3 right now and be done with it?" Every fan out there wishes he was on their team, except maybe the few bitter Angel fans who are too emotionally invested in the Trout vs Cabrera WAR fight. I can't remember any other Tiger in my lifetime that had such universal acclaim across MLB.
A few steps to the left of 1st base.
His left, or the hitter's left?
Cause it it's HIS left, that seems like a problem.
He could retire right this minute and be a Hall of Famer.
If he cruises on pace for another eight years or so, counting this one, he'll be very comfortably a member of both the 3,000-hit club and 600-HR club. At that point the greatest-hitter conversation just becomes as much a matter of personal preference as anything else.
All three of them.
tonight's game, and conversations like this are why i wanted the tigers to lock up cabrera for 30 milliion a year or 30 billion - its fun to watch him play. there are very few 9 figure contracts in baseball history that worked out in the club's favor, cabrerra's first is undoubtably in that catergory (jeter is another, after that it gets tough).
there was an open base, should have walked him.
also, the tigers had some guy named ty cobb like a million years ago. not fair to compare eras since the field isnt level, but he puts everyone to shame by strict numbers.
I know I'll get negged for this, but by the analytis Cabrera will never be a top 10 all-time player.
By career WAR, Miggy currently stands 222nd with 55.7. Even if he double this number (which is unlikely considering he'd need another 12 years of similar performance), he wouldn't finish in the top 10.
Your top 5 players by WAR (number is years played):
| 1. | Babe Ruth+ (22) | 183.6 | L |
| 2. | Cy Young+ (22) | 168.4 | R |
| 3. | Walter Johnson+ (21) | 165.6 | R |
| 4. | Barry Bonds (22) | 162.4 | L |
| 5. | Willie Mays+ (22) | 156.2 | R |
Kaline sits 42nd with 91.4
source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml
EDIT: Click here for Miggy's culmaltive WAR compared to 5 of the best hitters of all time.
WAR isn't perfect, but he is well behind the other's pace.
WAR also includes adjustments for position, and first basemen don't fare too well in that calcuation. The only first basemen I see in the top 50 are Lou Gehrig and Albert Pujols.
I assumed by "hitter" the op meant "position player", but yeah your point stands.
as in batter. Miggy is clearly not a good fielder. Kaline was clearly a better all-around player as he was great defensively. That being said, hitting is a bigger part of the game than defense.
But how about a shout out for Victor Martinez, he's quietly having one of his best seasons ever and is currently leading the team in most hitting statistics.
Okay, back to Cabby, who I believe will continue to gain health and strength such that he'll have a season that stands credible with his last four.
V-Mart! I hope the Tigers make sure they keep him (and keep him healthy) for as many seasons as possible, as it helps keep opposing pitchers from pitching around Miggy. The better Victor hits, the less likely other teams will intentinally walk Cabrera.
Already seeing the results of this---Showalter elected to have Hunter pitch to Miggy in the 9th rather than put another runner on for the red-hot V-Mart. They BOTH found the fence anyway.
Vmart get a couple more nice seasons before Castellanos slides into the 4 spot. I was really concerned about renewing him with his knee issues. I was wrong. He's even playing some serviceable 1st base adn catcher!
The season Martinez is having so far makes you not miss Fielder one bit.
But Miggy hands-down the greatest Tiger hitter, no argument? NSFMF.
Miguel Cabrera: .320 BA 329 HR 1,165 RBI 1,533 games
Hank Greenberg: .313 BA 331 HR 1,276 RBI 1,394 games
Hammerin' Hank hit more homers and knocked in more runs in 158 fewer games than Miggy has played.
On top of that, Greenburg lost almost four entire seasons in the prime of his career to military service in WWII, serving 47 months in uniform, longer than any other major league player.
Obviously, Cabrera will surpass all of the numbers Greenburg accumulated, and I'm not trying to denigrate his achievements or his talent. However, when comparing relatively equal playing time, Greenberg doesn't have to take a back seat to Cabrera.
that makes a huge difference and then I look at the surge in hitting numbers when the mound was lowered from 15 inches to 10 inches. Is it mere coincidence that the last time a pitcher dominated the WS with three complete game wins was the last time MLB was played with a 15 inch mound? For the younger crowd, that dominating pitcher wore the Olde English D and we called him Beer Belly...errrr, Mickey Lolich.
Plus, I mean, Ty Cobb had a .945 OPS in the dead-ball era. Better than A-Rod, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron, without the benefit of being easily able to smack the ball over the fence.
Miggy is going to finish with numbers that make what I said above about personal preference ring very true. Miggy, Cobb, and Greenberg will be a top three in whatever order floats your boat. Personally, watching Miggy hit makes my jaw drop sometimes, but then, I also happen to love the story where Cobb disputed the idea that hitting a bunch of home runs made Babe Ruth the best and said, I could do that if I wanted, I just choose not to, and hit three dingers that day just to prove his point.
BUT he played in an offensively-inflated era and an offensively-inflated ballpark.
For example, Greenberg's BA in 1937 was .337. That was SEVENTH in th AL. SEVENTH. In comparison, Miggy has led the AL in batting the last 3 seasons at .344, .330 and .348.
In 1939, Greenberg had an OBP of .420. That was good for NINTH in the AL. Contrast that to Miggy leading the AL in 2010 with a .420 OBP.
There was a ton of offense during Greenberg's day. He was a fantastic hitter, but I would give the edge to Miggy as he is standing out above his peers to lead the league in every category. Greenberg never finished higher than 5th in average, and only led the league in slugging once. He did hit a ton of homers, and led the league in that category 4 times. He was a sure-fire HOF and an all-time great. I'd just say Miggy is greater.
for Hank Greenburg, at this point in this discussion.
Greenburg spent more time (47 months) in the US Military than any other Major League ballplayer during WWII. In fact, after being the 1st player drafted for military duty, then being discharged at the end of his required duty, he three days later re-enlisted when the US declared war on Japan immediately after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. In other words, he was the first drafted AND then the first to voluntarily enlist.
Greenburg played the first 19 games of 1941 before missing the rest of that season, all of '42, 43, and '44, and all of April, May and June of '45. He returned to the Tigers on July 1st, and W/O any MLB-level practice, hit a homer in his first game back! All told, he missed not just 4 seasons, but approximately 4.4 seasons due to WWII, and nearly another full season while in his prime (age 25) due to a broken wrist (1936) when he only played in 12 games.
Looking at his stats, he really only played 9 full seasons, hitting 315 of his career total HR's in those seasons, including his rookie season when he only hit 12. So doing the math, the other 8 seasons with 303 dingers, he averaged 38 per season. Multiply that 38 by 5.4 seasons missed (and those would have been his prime seasons at age 25, then age 30-34) , it projects to 205 more career HRs. An uninterrupted career could have meant 536 homers (and probably more due to so many seasons missed in his prime).
Yes, Hank Greenburg belongs in any discussion of Greatest Tiger Ever. As do both Cobb and Miggy (if he continues playing at this level for much longer)
Now back to Miggy. Just today, in a 7-5 Tiger win, Miggy batted in the first 2 runs. Bases loaded, he singled in two on a breaking ball 6 inches above the dirt, a pitch that would have completely twisted up mere mortal ballplayers. Miggy is now batting .500 for the season and .415 in his career with the bases loaded.
Silly question.
... simply because the best players ever contributed with their gloves and their bats. Even Babe Ruth owns a significant record as a pitcher.
Another factor holding him back is playing 1B, because the list of 1B who could really swing the lumber is very, very long; almost none of those guys are in the best player discussion, because it's hard to stand out from their peers. (My current snap judgement would be that the best players by career value are Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron and Cobb - sprinkle in Cy Young, Walter Johnson and Roger Clemens, and you can see that as lucky as we are to have Cabrera wear the laundry we root for, he's got a looooong way to go before he ends up in that discussion.) [Just checked Baseball Reference - I underrated Speaker, Collins, Wagner, Hornsby and Musial. http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml for your entertainment.]
Comparing across eras is extremely difficult, to boot. One narrative is described above - today's game has specialist pitchers, pulls players from all over the globe, gives them medical care undreamed-of, and has more information to make players better than ever before. Being great today is thus more impressive than being great yesterday.
The problem I have with that narrative is that it means that tomorrow's great will be better still - the same things that make players better today will make tomorrow's players better still, with their undetectable/legalized meds, bionic limbs, computer implants and whatnot.
Anyway, if Cabrera plays to this level for another decade, he'll end up among the all-time greats with the bat, and a solid first-ballot Hall member overall, but he'd have to do something even more than what he's done to date to get into the best ever discussion.
...DUDE!
baseball great (and is why the steriod stain is so dramatic). Also (without looking Baseball Reference) I suspect you're overvaluing Mantle's fairly sort career. Good thoughts though.
I don't care for MLB, but he's truly one of the best hitters I've ever seen.
How about just past 30 years since eras are so hard to compare? Basically it's a small group of 5-6 guys who have any chance of all timers and 2 of them are steroid tainted (Bonds/Rodriguez).
IMO you take 2-4 hitters from every era and together they are "all timers" as a bunch
i.e. (not saying these are the guys but for comparison sake)
- Era 1 - Cobb/Wagner
- Era 2 - Ruth/Gehrig/Foxx/Hornsby
- Era 3 - Williams/Musial/Greenberg/Dimaggio
- Era 4 - Aaron/Mays/Mantle/Frank Robinson/Kaline
- Era 5 - Rose/Yastrzemski/McCovey
- Era 6 - Schmidt/Brett
- Era 7 - Bonds/Griffey Jr./Gwynn
- Era 8 - Rodriguez/Pujols/Cabrera
Some of these guys were not great defenders but if you are talking best hitters of each era to combine to be "all timers" he is on his way to all timer in 3-4 years.
but probably neither looking at the other names on their list. That said, both Kaline and Clemente fit right in with Yaz in the following section... such fun.
I was thinking about that list and possible errors in it and realized (for the umpteenth time) this is why the Hall of Fame needs to adopt Simmons's five-level pyramid idea. Baseball debates are a blast. Take a guy like Yastrzemski, who is plainly not one of the really elite hitters but plainly also a no-brainer Hall of Famer - everyone agrees on that, but now, what if we're debating as to whether he belongs on the second or third tier? The whole Hall is open for debate again. It'd be brilliant.
If it is me, then the "all-time" discussion is a difficult one to have until all the numbers are in and Cabrera has left the game. If we were to project his game based on curent data, however, he will certainly be remembered as one of the best players of this generation and this era of the game at the very minimum. Consider that at 31 years old, he has won the Silver Slugger award five times, has been an All-Star eight times, has been the American League MVP twice, has won the Triple Crown, has been the AL batting champion three times and then mix in the various other honors, it seems like a career that will definitely get him in the Hall when all is said and done if that continues. As others have mentioned, his offense alone may very well givee him an excellent argument for being an "all-timer" when the book is closed on his career.
Miggy is the best hitter I've ever seen play the game. I've watched a TON of baseball for 20+ years. He'll go down as one of the all time greats.
Depending on health, Cabrera has a chance to be a top 5-10 hitter of all-time. I'm just happy we have him in his prime and, hopefully, we can get a W.S. ring or two.
and Cabrera has the sweetest swing I have ever seen, and that includes watching guys like Carew, Brett, Reggie, Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, and too many others to name here. I have never seen anyone get around on a pitch as quickly as Miggy...