Non-MGoBlog Perception of Hoke / Michigan
Reading this blog, one can get a skewed sense of how (1) more casual Michigan fans, and (2) college football fans, generally, perceive our program. Sure, we all know about the great recruiting classes brought in, the youth of the O-Line, the "empty cupboard" that both RR and Hoke inherited, but sometimes we forget that non-MGoBlog fans don't know any of this. I relate below two recent interactions that I have had in the past 24 hours:
1. The first was at a neighborhood party (live in suburban NY), at which there were a good number of college football fans, including 5-6 who root for other Big Ten teams, as well as one other Michigan fan. When the discussion drifted to college football, the comments about Hoke / Michigan were somewhat eye-opening (paraghrased below despite use of quotation marks):
"you guys got smoked again - have you guys beaten anyone good since Lloyd Carr retired"
"saw your coach on sportscenter - he looked totally lost and confused. What's his deal? Why did they hire that guy?"
"I remember when Michigan was really good - they really have sucked for a while now"
"seems like you guys get worse every year."
"can't you guys find a decent coach? Between Richrod and this buffoon, you guys pick shitty coaches."
2. At a deposition yesterday (I am a lawyer), there were four lawyers. Aside from me, there was a Va Tech fan, an ND fan and a Wisconsin fan. At lunch, we were discussing the demise of the Big Ten and the Va Tech fan was going off about how our coach comes off as clueless and over his head. ND guy, who is actually a decent guy, agreed and was saying how shocked he and his Domer friends were at how poorly Michigan played. He was saying that the consensus amongst ND fans was that given our talent, they expected more. They were particularly shocked at how minimally we used to Funch. Wisco guy agreed about Hoke, but chalked up the Michigan decline to the general decline of the conference and RichRod allowing State to raid to in-state talent in from 2008-2010.
Obviously, we here are way more informed about our team than these more casual / non-Michigan fans. But, sometimes it is easy to lose the forest for the trees. So, while all of us can probably recite the depth chart by heart, and know all of the reasons for optimism / pessimism, perhaps we are missing the 10,000 foot view of these fans, which is that Michigan is in a real decline and our coach is perceived to be way over his head.
Going forward, if we don't start to win, I think that Brandon has to take into account the real decline in the perception of Michigan in the cfb world. Even if Hoke is a great guy and the excuses are valid (I know, strong if w/r/t excuses), if we don't start to win this year, Brandon may have to consider making a change to prevent the slide in public perception of Michigan.
September 10th, 2014 at 8:02 PM ^
"When will we hire en elite coach that will take us to similar heights as OSU, USC, Oklahoma etc?"
Ty Butterfield gave you the immediate answer: not until Brandon is gone. Brandon's treatment of RR (fired 3 years into a 6 year contract after he had rebuilt the smoking crater he inherited, refusing to give him the bowl ring he earned, waited to fire him until it was too late to get a job the next year even though that crippled recruiting in the transitional year) has put Michigan in a box. Why would a top level coach subjecthimself to that kind of treatment?
September 15th, 2014 at 12:19 AM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 4:16 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:08 PM ^
I'm not sure there's anything in there that's a suprise to those on this blog. We're all painfully aware that have been basically irrelevant since 2006. And of course, when a team is struggling, people are going to perceive that coach to be "in over his head."
September 9th, 2014 at 3:08 PM ^
Honestly, my perception of other programs is probably the same as these guys hold about UM. I will say that the preception that RR somehow allowed MSU to raid the state of Michigan for talent doesn't make any sense; UM got lots of good players out the state, and many of MSU's best players came from the usual Big 10 footprint.
Hoke needs to win; that's all that matters.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:15 PM ^
With all due respect, that's not all that matters. It seems like that's more and more the prevailing notion as fans get increasingly impatient, but I would take a hundred losing seasons to make sure a JoePa, or Tressel, or Carroll, never sets foot on this campus. Even the Strecthgate and APR hits of the RR era, as minor as they are, were embarrassing blemishes on an otherwise clean record. Brady Hoke gets a lot of shit for "just being a nice guy" and yeah, that's not enough to justify keeping him alone, but running a program that does things the right way and prepares the kids for life after football isn't just a catchy cliche. Winning is important, but it is not the only thing that matters.
September 9th, 2014 at 4:09 PM ^
And I agree with you for the most part, but Hoke isn't just the nice guy. Brian outlined this well in the podcast, so I won't repeat it here. Suffice it say, Hoke has criticism beyond the football field, it's just those are understandably overshadowed.
I'm not trying to argue that any of the non-game related misgivings justify firing. I'm tend to think not actually, but he's not knocking it out of the park either as just a nice guy.
September 9th, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^
Brian's arguments basically boiled down to
A) He has contempt for the fanbase.
and
B) He botched the Gibbons thing.
B is legitimate, but it's way more a University thing than a Hoke thing. About the only thing he did was lie about the reason for Gibbons being gone for about 2 weeks. While I can see how that rubs people the wrong way, I don't think it's a cardinal sin. At worst, he was trying to protect his former player and not scoop the University's process for dealing with these things.
A is frankly a bit of sore grapes and basically boils down to a couple of statements made after tough losses that are taken out of context and twisted. If Hoke hated the fans so much, why would he host a fall scrimmage? He does as many pressers as just about every coach out there, including making both his coordinators available to the press weekly. Yeah, the guy doesn't like dealing with the media and isn't the most forth-coming guy, but the nickname "Fort Schembechler" was coined long before Hoke showed up. And can you blame him? The last guy underestimated the media and they ended up skewering him.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:21 PM ^
But if you don't mind, I'd like to parse out a few details here:
1) the contempt -- I agree the "true fans" quote seems sensationalized, but the media disdain is palable. You're right, he's not the first on this, but at least when Carr called the guy's question stupid he apologized a few days later. Hoke's standing there, trying (ineffectively in my opinion) to be coy about injury reports saying he's "got a good plan for the oline" then gets routed. It's just another data point in the pile that suggests he's not very good at his job, despite some clear superiority ideation on his part (he mentioned how media members "like to play coach" (poorly) on Monday).
2) The gibbons thing -- that's just such a terribly sad story for so many people. Again, you're right, there's plenty of blame to go around. My contetion here related to Hoke is that he likely, altough admittedly not proven, likely played Gibbons in Iowa knowing the univeristy was motioning to expell him. Now in a vacuum, Hoke would deserve the benefit of the doubt, but given his lying, in general and to this situation explicitely, he cedes that right.
I agree these aren't cardinal sins as you put. They are far from firable, in fact I'd say they're largely actions any coach at any big-time program would take to win, except he's not. Which, to me, leads to the question: What are we getting with Hoke? Among other things, I don't think it's moral high ground.
September 9th, 2014 at 6:37 PM ^
I understand and agree, but Hoke's time hasn't been spotless. The Gibbons mess, while I largely agree with how he handled it within the strictures of his position at a public university, is still a black mark. And the APR hits under RR were a result of kids leaving, not them being academically ineligible for failing out of classes. I mean, yeah Tate Forcier struggled, but I don't remember too many other players that failed in their classes. I'm not calling for Hoke to go all Saban or Kiffin, but Hoke's job is to win football games and keep Michigan's players in line and be a good representative of the University. But he isn't a saint, and you have to look no further than York being kicked off the team to see that you can't bat 1.000 no matter how you try.
Personally, I think Hoke is truly passionate about doing a good job at UM, and given the landscape of college football he's as good as choice as any to coach here while the team is still getting back to competitiveness nationally. But I'm sure he has skeletons in his coaching closet (like all big-time coaches), and I'm not holding onto to the false narrative that UM is somehow holier or more moral than the vast majority of other programs.
September 9th, 2014 at 7:59 PM ^
If anything kicking York off the team is a point in favor of Hoke rather than against. Unless Hoke has Minority Report foresight he's not at fault for York committing the act. As soon as York was charged he was kicked off the team; I don't think you can ask for much more in that scenario.
September 9th, 2014 at 9:03 PM ^
I absolutely agree Hoke handled the York situation properly; I was more getting to the point that people who think he's batting 1.000 in recruitng kids who stay with the program and represent the University well isn't true. Maybe I didn't make that clear.
September 9th, 2014 at 9:20 PM ^
Ahhh, gotcha.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:08 PM ^
all you need to know about brandon is that he said miles would be coach at michigan, "over his dead body"
fact is, michigan nees a PRICK.... like Bo... like Jim Harbaugh... you know, the kind many of you hate, to succeed here.... because one has to be able the enormity of the program.. Bo called out a ton of stuff that would've rattled many people here.... just like Jim did.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:36 PM ^
And it was probably Brandon(who was a regent at the time) that made sure Miles didn't get hired back in 2007. I know there was a divide between former Bo and Carr players but it seems like there's also one between former Bo players. Rick Leach is definitely not on the same page with Dave Brandon.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:33 PM ^
Bo wasn't a prick.
I met him on a few occasions as a kid and once as an adult......I was an M fan throughout his entire career (ok, so I was about 2 when it started, but parents both went to M) and after until I went to M from '86-'90, so was around for his tenure as AD.
tough? yes.
gruff with the press? oh, yes.
perhaps, at times, a real pain in the ass to players, but always and foremost a pretty class act.
Harbaugh and Miles are both pricks. Full on, no comparison to Bo in any way.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:50 PM ^
Bo wasn't a prick to be sure.
How many kids at Stanford as saying Harbaugh was a prick? About the only people I hear saying Harbaugh is a prick are the coaches that are losing to him and the GM of the 49ers who doesn't want to give him full control of the team.
September 9th, 2014 at 7:01 PM ^
To be fair, how many college kids typically call out their coaches? And Harbaugh was only at Stanford a short time, and during that time he won enough that I imagine most people kept quiet. I imagine he'd rub people the wrong way here, and at some point when he isn't winning enough, that will come back and bite him.
You hire Harbaugh because you want to win and that's fine, but people thinking everyone will be peachy with him because of what happens on the field is foolish.
September 9th, 2014 at 7:13 PM ^
because of his comments throwing Bo and UM under a bus when he arived at Stanford to the effect of 'they steered me into an easy degree/program at M when I wanted to major in history', the insinuation being that M was funneling athletes through the school. The remarks are extremely disingenous, due to the fact that at the time there were many players on the team in difficult majors and I doubt in the extreme that Harbaugh has ever been someone that follows orders very well.
There are many other comments, incidents, filandering/several ex-wives that would point to that conclusion about him and those come from players, people that coached with him and who have worked with him. There is also a decided lack of chatter/information out there that would refute this.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:09 PM ^
We should start paying kids. The punishment clearly doesnt fit the crime and teams that dont simply can't compete.
Until the NCAA gets it's head out of its ass the incentive to pay and compete vs the dissincentive not to pay and wallow while circling the drain is just too vast. Watching the fucking Vanderbilts/Miss St./Ole Miss' of the world get better while we get worse and worse is not worth it to me anymore.
Apologies to the silver haied traditionalists but apparently the game has changed. Or at least the punishments for doing the crime are so minimal that it isn't worth not cheating.
I am aware of the Fab Five. I am aware of SMU.
I am also aware of Florida, Florida State, Miami, Ohio State, Ole MIss, Miss St.
That's why I say "Fugg it."
September 9th, 2014 at 3:14 PM ^
How do you know we aren't paying kids? Gotta develop those paid players
September 9th, 2014 at 3:31 PM ^
Do you think MSU is paying players?
September 9th, 2014 at 3:51 PM ^
At least that is what some of the players tell recruits.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:51 PM ^
At least that is what some of the players tell recruits.
September 9th, 2014 at 4:19 PM ^
Not certain of that. No real smoking gun. They do have a deep rooted PED "problem" though, but that isn't even seen as a problem in NCAA football yet.
I don't know man. We need to do something. I'm obviously not smart oenough to know what, but this team, this program is circling the drain. Not that hard to see we need a "shot in the arm" for lack of a better term.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:18 PM ^
I agree about the PED thing, or at least it certainly seems that way to my eye. You don't just "coach up" random two star after random two star like they've been doing up there.
I also agree we need to do something, but I have no idea what that something should be. A big part of me says that Hoke just isn't going to take us where we want to go, yet another part (though smaller) says to give him a full five years. To me, it pretty much comes down to how we look the rest of this season. The strange thing for me is that prior to this season, I would have told you with 100% certainty that Hoke was safe. Now? I just don't know, man.
September 9th, 2014 at 8:04 PM ^
I wonder if John Beilein uses PEDs too...?
All the steroids in the world won't teach someone to play disciplined and with a high IQ.
September 9th, 2014 at 4:32 PM ^
I actually am starting to think this is a good idea. We would basically be doing recruiting the way MSU does defense. Cheat the rules that you know will never get punished (I.E. pass interference) and you will be way ahead of those other suckers who play by the rules.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:10 PM ^
You have valid concerns. The real question I have is which poor schmuck did you bill by the hour to write this post?
September 9th, 2014 at 3:13 PM ^
It was me.
I'm good with being a poor schmuck though.
thanks for your concern.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:11 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:12 PM ^
Nobody knows anything.
Everything is awful
Drink moar whiskey
September 9th, 2014 at 3:21 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 4:32 PM ^
If you are suggesting that they are representitive of alums in their 50s and 60s, I disagree. Certainly not the ones I know.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:14 PM ^
I didn't turn the game off, but I sure as hell was depressed by it. Hoke is a nice guy and maybe the kids do love him, BUT he is not the coach that will bring back BIg Ten championships, much less a National Title. My God, if Harbaugh shows the slightest interest, Brandon would be insane not to offer him the world!
September 9th, 2014 at 5:34 PM ^
These alums all loved Bo and like Hoke for his Bo qualities. One of them even has an article on her wall about Bo she wrote for the daily decades ago. They think Hoke has recruited well, and hope to see him with the kids in the future. None of then have even heard of this site, and generally steer clear of blogs.
September 10th, 2014 at 10:42 AM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
September 9th, 2014 at 10:11 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:31 PM ^
Ha ha
September 9th, 2014 at 3:33 PM ^
This is why I am an MGoBlog regular.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:33 PM ^
The office is pretty brutal right now. I can't even talk to anyone about it, because most people are total mouth breathing idiots. And at this moment, I share a lot of their opinions. Still can't talk to them. This sucks.
Please get it together Michigan coaching staff. Please.
September 9th, 2014 at 4:23 PM ^
What kind of work do you do? Hell of an opinion to have of your colleagues, eh. Asking honestly, btw.
September 9th, 2014 at 5:20 PM ^
I'd rather not say...
However, that's my opinion of most humans in general, not just my work colleagues. We (the collective "we") have developed exceptionally short attention spans, among myriad other undesirable social qualities...
September 9th, 2014 at 3:38 PM ^
September 9th, 2014 at 3:35 PM ^
I second the OP's take on the perception of Michigan and Hoke outside the state. Here in northern Ohio he is generally considered a laughable buffoon who is a serious coaching lightweight and not representative of the Michigan they knew and remembered. And the comment about "getting smoked again" is also true. It seems like most people around here have move well beyond the hate they used to have for us and are now in the "isn't that cute" stage of patronization.
Nobody fears us. Nobody really even respects us. Why should they? It's been years since we've been relevant and from the looks of things we're not exactly knocking on the door of redemption anytime soon.
September 10th, 2014 at 10:29 AM ^
I travel all over the country, mostly playing competitive tennis, but some for work, and the above post describes the perception farily succinctly.
What is worse, it is more than perception, it is the reality.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:36 PM ^
Sounds like you hang out with a lot of dicks. :)
September 9th, 2014 at 4:14 PM ^
I live in Ohio so I guess that's true.
September 9th, 2014 at 3:36 PM ^
I think we can agree that if we win the B1G championship everyone will be happy about coach Hoke. The issue I have is that losing 31-0 doesn't inspire much confidence that we can be competitve in the B1G race this year. 10 games left to be played but if we had lost 21-17 the tune would be very different.
IMO it is now B1G championship or bust.