QB Strategiery
(First off - I know, I know. It's the off season. Gimme a break.)
Alright, so, I managed to stomach some of the grammar over at GBMW, and I came away with a few interesting tidbits. According to them, Tate and Denard look about even, with Denard's legs giving him a slight edge. They also said, however, that the offenses aren't running any plays to stretch the field at all right now, so whether that's because the QB's aren't up to it (Tate's shoulder?) or they're just working on other stuff, I don't know.
They also said the split in time right now is about 50% Denard, 40% Tate, 10% Devin, and that Devin is making substantial process, and though he's behind on the learning curve, he can do things the other two just can't. So go with me on this for a minute:
Rodriguez has stated on numerous occasions that the intention with Denard is to get him on the field wherever possible. We know that he's a ridiculous athletic talent, but to this point, he's proven to be a gamble whether he'll hurt or help more, and that's likely to always be the case to some extent.
Tate has proven to be a ridiculously awesome QB sometimes, but, also clearly has physical limitations. That can't really be argued. He's always going to be a touch smaller, a touch slower, with a touch less arm. But we do know, when healthy, he's awesome. He's not quite the athlete Denard is, but he's a safe bet to make plays and keep us in the game.
Then you've got Devin, who has the true star power potential to take us to new heights. He's simply not there yet, but actually could be at some point this year.
So then, I think we see the logic behind the QB process here. The goal is to eventually get Devin starting, at which point you don't want to relegate TWO other exceptional talents to the bench. So, we work the offense with Denard to make sure he's really good at what he's good at, then coach him on other positions. We start out the year with two QB's, similar to last year, and eventually, if and when he's ready, we work in Devin. At that point, we rotate uber-athlete Denard entirely to other positions, so we're not wasting two exceptional talents on the bench at any one time, and the QB rotation becomes Forcier-Gardner instead, with Robinson full time at other positions. Eventually, Gardner transitions to the full or most of the time starting role, and we end up with this:
Awesome, super athletic, NC winning starting QB.
Backup/split time QB that the rest of college football would kill to have as their full time starter
Athletic playmaker in the vein of Randle-El or someone similar, who takes over the game all over the field, and occasionally lines up at center to mess with defenses heads.
THAT, my friends, is a dream scenario.
Well, I don't think you can separate "who will be the starter this year" from "the logic behind the QB process."
that Tate's shoulder isn't 100% yet and they are trying to minimize the strain since the real season is still 4 1/2 months away.
If anybody else saw Inkster in the state championship game, Devin didn't look very good at all. I know he had tweaked a knee in the semis, but he certainly didn't look like a guy who would be starting his freshmen year in college with two returning QBs.
Another thing to remember is the QBs are going against a vanilla D and our D has very little depth right now. Therefore, anything done against the second and third team should not count.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:29 PM ^
Are scrambling when there is no room to or trying to do too much with the football. All qbs dream of that perfect pass to an open man or miraculous catch from a hail mary throw like Flutie's but Tate needs to understand that if he doesn't have a receiver open or he's about to be blitzed on both ends THROW IT AWAY TO THE SIDELINES. It drove me nuts seeing him trying to launch a pass in hopes of a completion only to see it get intercepted. And I'm not patting D-rob on the back either, he needs to work on his accuracy when throwing the ball but he's really built for speed more than anything. I'm really looking forward to seeing Gardner in action this season. His HS vids were really impressive to watch because this kid can flat out take off when he sees an opening in the line so it will be interesting to see how the choice unfolds. I just hope all three do their jobs, work hard and lead us to wins.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:30 PM ^
"if he doesn't have a reciever open or he's about to be blizted on both ends THROW IT AWAY TO THE SIDELINES."
You mean... he made Freshman mistakes?
April 12th, 2010 at 12:48 PM ^
I'm not saying they weren't it's part of the growing up in college football but I am saying that not learning this early and not fixing leads to qbs struggling throughout the season. Tate's a sophmore now so he's got a year of experience under his belt and he will most likely of worked on fixing these problems from 09. He just needs to keep having good vision on the field. Brett Favre, (as much as I hate him) saw the field well when he played. It was so difficult to sack him because he could slip out of a tackle and launch a 50+ yard bomb down the field before he even was close to being pinned. He developed a sense of where the left tackle or defense would be when the pocket would fold. Tate will learn with more time and experience. I just don't want him get a bad ego like Pryor or Masoli and think he can do whatever we wants on the field and get away with it. Pryor learned this the hard way against Purdue and Masoli learned it in two ways, 1 the Rose Bowl and 2 the law. Tate though seems to have a good head on his shoulders and thats a positive sign of the future yet to come.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:52 PM ^
"We know that [Denard's] a ridiculous athletic talent, but to this point, he's proven to be a gamble whether he'll hurt or help more, and that's likely to always be the case to some extent."
I think your last phrase is a moderate to big assumption. This qb issue has arisen primarily because of Denard's somewhat surprising improvement. To think that he will not continue to improve in terms of consistency and reliability simply employs the pre-spring practice logic that Denard would remain far behind Tate. Denard proved that logic to be faulty. We should continue to question such assumptions - that Denard will not continue to improve his "qb intelligence" and come to be less and less of a gamble.
Following this blog has proven to me the importance of the Spring Game on communicating to the fan base. This is my second Spring Practice while reading MGoBlog, and it's amazing what it can do about the positive attitude in at least this sampling of the FanBase. "Hope Springs Eternal"
And it's great to hear that the coaches are making all the players practice during the practice time they are allowed to coach them, instead of like saying, "hey Devin's going to red shirt, no point in him trying hard."
But in a serious light, I temper my excitement with the understanding that Spring Practice is about learning the correct way to do things, which means that when the offense is practicing, the defense is limited a bit so that the offense can learn by doing all their motions the correct way.
So when everyone observes that people are doing well and look equal, this isn't a true measure of "hey it's close competition" but more "hey those guys are working hard and paying attention"
extending from that, the coaches time and again have stated none of the three are regressing, which means that if Devin looks good, then he's running the limited amount of plays he's learned so far, in comparison to all the plays that Denard knows and has added to, and all the plays Tate knows and has added to. In other words, Tate is still ahead of Denard by half a year, and Denard is still ahead of Devin half a year.
On top of that RR has stated from the beginning he will not rely on one QB, but a "platoon" of QB's since his complicated precision offense needs an experienced and UNINJURED QB running it for it to succeed.
So despite the mix of talent and capabilities each of these QB's possess, experience and execution are going to dictate who is on the field.
The Iowa game showed two things. One, RR will "change it up" to game an edge on the defense. Two, Denard had such a one dimensional understanding of the playbook that by the next week defenses were easily capable of shutting him down.
Finally, the statement was made by I think Calvin that they aren't afraid of burning Devin's red shirt. Because the best experience is had from true game time experience.
It's not a question of who sees the field, just how often, and that will be driven by injury and game time execution.
Unlike Lloyd's system, RR needs a talented QB each year. He can't live off one QB for three years and one year of overlap for apprenticeship.
Tate does not transfer because he's getting what was promised to him. A job that's his to lose against fierce and constant competition.
While the NFL may not run the Option Read as a running play, I'm pretty sure the skill of reading a defense at each play in real time, and making a split second decision on where to put the ball is a pretty key skill.
RR is preparing these guys for the NFL. Will they have to learn new plays, undoubtedly! But will they have the right tools, I have no doubt.
"While the NFL may not run the Option Read as a running play, I'm pretty sure the skill of reading a defense at each play in real time, and making a split second decision on where to put the ball is a pretty key skill."
While reading a play on the fly IS a pretty key skill, most of a quarterback's work is done prior to the snap. A quarterback couldn't just keep his eyes closed pre-snap and then expect to read the defense and make a successful decision with the ball. That would be a recipe for disaster. So while it is indeed important, we shouldn't dismiss the historical data suggesting that quarterbacks in spread offenses tend not to be successful in the NFL.
Is there something about the spread that makes pre-snap reads different from a pro-set? Seems to me like things shouldn't be all that different pre-snap but, then again, I'm not a coach or a player. Is it just a matter of how the Defense is forced to line up against it that makes the read different? Is it being in the Shotgun? Something else? Your insight is appreciated.
The zone read play is the difference. In a "spread" (zone read) formation, the QB keys on the (DE?)after the snap to decide whether to keep it or pitch it. In a pro set the reads are done pre-snap, since the QB isn't deciding between running or pitching the ball.
I probably got it wrong, but that is my novice understanding of it. Magnus, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I was asking more in regard to directly comparable responsibilities. Magnus alludes to the fact that spread QBs haven't been all that successful in the NFL. Seems like if you can successfully read a defense in a passing situation, formation/scheme shouldn't matter.
I'm thinking of Colt Brennan, Chase Daniels, etc. But, those guys are still pretty young still and haven't really had a decent shot at PT. Brees and Pennigton are examples of spread QBs that have succeeded, so it is possible. Just curious if the observation would be verified with hardcore stats or if there is specific rationalle that makes him beleive that.
Gotcha. That's a little out of my element.
Magnus, quit playing with your damn trident and answer this man.
...until you pointed it out.
MCalibur, I have a couple answers for you:
a) In Rodriguez's form of the spread (like Oregon's, Northwestern's, etc.), Forcier isn't asked to make audibles. All the audibles come from the sideline. Therefore, he's not forced to think about what plays can counter certain defensive alignments. He's usually operating the offense ASfastASheCAN, so there's little time or need for pre-snap reads.
b) Spread quarterbacks take 90% of their snaps from the shotgun formation. Tim Tebow is battling the feeling right now amongst NFL general managers that he doesn't know how to play quarterback from under center. The footwork, the reads, the timing, EVERYTHING is different when you're playing QB from under center. So when a spread QB enters the NFL, he has to virtually learn anew how to play quarterback. There are some exceptions (Brees, for one), but there are a vast amount of failures. This problem might be lessened if the spread in the NFL becomes more and more prevalent, but as of now, I'm drafting a pro-style QB if I'm an NFL general manager; unless I'm the Patriots, Chiefs, or Cardinals, I'm taking Clausen over Bradford.
that with denard playing better it makes gardner LESS likely to play this year? way too many people keep talking about gardner being viable this year. but why the hell would they burn a RS when they have two qbs playing at or better than tate played last year (one being tate himself). i understand gardner is the mix of the two (without braids) but i feel all of the reports of the qbs succeeding in spring practice makes gardner less likely to play rather than more.
No, I think that's pretty much correct. I'm writing off Devin this year entirely. I think a lot of the idea that he's the most talented of the three is little more than Backup Syndrome, in which the backup QB is always the team's most talented player because nobody's seen him screw up yet. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Devin doesn't see the field in any meaningful situations until 2013 when he's a redshirt junior.
i hate to be the one to say it but if RR is dismissed at the end of this year, RSing Gardner would allow him to use that extra season to adapt to the new coach's system. without the RS, he would be learning the new offense as a Sophomore, etc.
When's the last time a true frosh was amazing? Devin will be great, but he's only been practicing for a couple weeks. I don't see him starting over Tate or Denard this whole year. Hopefully he gets redshirted.