OT: IB vs AP (high school)
Sorry about the OT, but things are pretty slow around here right now so it is probably good a time as any, and I really respect the general knowledge and intelligence of this crowd and would love to hear from people with knowledge on this issue.
I have a daughter who is about to enter high school. She is very lucky in that she lives in a school district that is nationally recognized, well funded, and filled with upper-middle class students who are motivated. The district also has open admissions policies for schools where there is room (which is most), and she has an option on which high school to attend.
And really, she cannot make a bad choice here. I have visited the high schools in the area and they are all fantastic. I wish I had it this good when I was a student.
Our dilemma comes down to this. She is in a program that feeds to the IB (International Baccalaureate) oriented high school. It is an accelerated program that awards IB degrees by 11th grade (most do it at 12th grade). It is demanding and time consuming. However, the kids in this program also do well and average 35 points (that is like A, A-).
She can also go to a STEM oriented high school where the emphasis is in AP (even enhanced AP programs that act like IB). This school would be more normally paced and she would probabaly get a higher GPA (the other program attracts the best students in the district) and have more time for extracurricular activities.
I know most of the pros and cons around IB (like how IB credits are not honored at many colleges), but I am really only interested in two things; the quality of life and chances of getting into very selective universities. Based on my research, the answers are all over the place.
Do you have any personal experience or close understanding of IB vs AP? I would love to assist my daughter on this decision, but really I have no idea which one is better.
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If I wanted to amplify anything, it's that the quality of the teacher matters (and I say this as an AP U.S. History teacher) but it's also the quality of the effort and desire that the student puts in. A student should be well rounded, pursuing that in which they have shown talent, but also pushing their boundaries and seeing what else is out there. Naturally, raw intellect matters, but at the high school level, it is the students who have succeeded not by "playing school" but who have the disciplined study habits, the willingness to ask questions, and the willingness to both have a plan and adjust their plans that are the most successful. You will always have the natural talents, the 4 and 5-star kids who are just knowledge sponges and would be successful with or without your class, but give me a 3 star with a motor and I can help them find a gear that they never knew they had. Those kids are the ones who tend to be more successful in college because they can combine intellect with work ethic.
The other thing with the APs is that it's a great chance for "smart kids to fail." I don't mean that in a negative way, but simply in the sense that so many academically talented students are not challenged by high school for reasons of or not of their own making, and then get to an elite institution and flounder. Not because they are not "smart" enough, but simply because they lack the skill set and tool kit to make it work when the raw intellect isn't enough. It is better to struggle in high school, where you have your family and your teachers as a support network around you, to learn those coping strategies and mechanisms. It makes you better in the long run.
In the end, a kid with drive, talent, and vision will always find a way to be successful. Doing your homework on this kind of thing is useful and in the end, whatever decision your family makes will be the right one for the right reasons for your family. Trust it and move forward confidently in the direction of your goal.
I've taught in both systems.
If you don't care about college credits, and just want the best education for your daughter, IB all the way, and it's not even close.
The AP is a mishmash of tests, not an integrated curriculum.
I recommend your daughter do IB, then keep/create portfolios of work to submit to colleges in her application, often you can get credit that way. Also consider taking placement tests once admitted to the college, you can place out or get college credit that way, even if you don't take AP classes or tests.
In 98 I became the first student with an IB diploma at one of the top art schools in the country. The higher level calc and physics didn't help me with knowing how to draw a car, but it created in me a tremendous work ethic that aided me in switching from left to right brain studies. I watched many of my high school classmates take AP classes that were also offered, but they were not pushed to be as driven as those of us in the IB classes. I went from higher level IB Eco to my first art class in college that the accreditation board said had as much work as Harvard Law. It took four years to be as good as the other students, but I would not have graduated near the top of my class if I did not have the drive that the IB program instilled in me.
In short, I only got 15 credits from the IB diploma transferred to an art school, but the work ethic it created in me has allowed me to obtain my boyhood dream. I wouldn't be where I am without the IB diploma.
We went through the same thought process. Came down on the AP side. The elite colleges will tell you as long as you take at least 1/2 of all the AP classes at your school, you'll be fine in terms of admit chances (assuming strong test scores and grades, and extracurriculars). Oh, yes, grades.
The elite colleges wash out all the 'plus' and 'push' grades that many high schools typically tack onto IB classes, so don't waste your time thinking you'll get a better GPA along the way for application purposes.
My son, once on campus (formerly important-to-the-B1G-school located somewhere in the midwest), reports that the IB kids felt IB didn't help them and was not a good use of their time. Especially true as the IB high school course work did not earn them credit at college and/or did not allow them to move into a higher level math or other curriculums right out of the gate as a first year. Sticking the kids in the entry level after they already did higher level course work in IB was tough for the kids and on the tuition dollar expense.
If your kid is just barely into the higher-performing population, be careful. Saw several like that among our friend's kids, they struggled, got poorer grades than if in a standard+AP program, and actually hurt their chances with the elite colleges. Read Malcom Gladwell's "David and Goliath" book and pay attention to the section on being in the lowest quartile in any academic setting. Also, by a different author, read "40 Schools that Change Lives", and "Beyond the Ivy League". And save up $$'s.
It seems like either path can develop a good chance at success, it just depends on the kid and where they slot in academically, intellectually, and work-ethic wise.
Bon Chance!
March 25th, 2016 at 10:27 AM ^
This is your daughter's decision. Also it's not rocket science on what is needed to get into the school she wants.
You can get into ANY school with AP or IB or a mixture like my kids have done. Both have merits and flaws. My personal opinion is going the whole 10 yards to get an IB diploma vs taking many IB classes is not worth the extra effort provided you use that time to develop other parts of your life resume. That said IB classes are great.
College admissions folks of TOP tier schools look to see that your child is taking the hardest curriculum offered at their school. You also know what ACT/Sat scores you need to get in.
A good GPA in a tough curriculum and good test scores JUST GETS YOU PAST THE FIRST ROUNDS. They want to know what your kid will add to the quality of campus life and what other activities/achievements show sincere interest for the school and program.
A girl who is interested in STEM needs to show STEM passion. Does she do robotics, math competitions, coding classes (UM's WISE program is someting to check out)? Has she gone to an engineering/science camp preferably at the school she wants to get into? I go back to robotics because girls in these fields are golden. Make sure you visit your schools of choice for a campus tour sophomore year, have your daughter get a counselors name, stay in contact -show you are really interested!
If your kid has a special talent such as sports, contact the school's coach or person where your daughter's talent lies. If they want your daughter they will often give good advice as to what successful applicants do to get in - or will put in a good word when she applies.
I have tons more to say. Some is not PC. But good luck to her.
March 25th, 2016 at 11:13 AM ^
Good stuff here, everyone. I have a youngster who will likely be going into an IB program (though HS is a long ways away) and some really interesting feedback.
This board is the best.