- Member for
- 5 years 37 weeks
- 1st off: the NCAA can revisit this issue annually (so it might be re-visited next year)
Now, the process and rationale for the ban:
- 6 of the conferences voted against satellite camps (including the P12 and B12); 4 were in favor (and the B1G was the only P5 conference that voted in favor of the camps). So this isn't a conspiracy by the SEC (& ACC).
- Few schools--esp. smaller ones--have the resources (i.e., $$$, staff, etc.) to actually run satellite camps. So satellite camps benefit the big schools with money.
- There's a general sense that recruiting has run amok--and, yes, Jim Harbaugh is the partially to blame for this with recent recruiting events. And the NCAA has limited resources to police recruiting. For example, how does the NCAA police each text sent by each coach to each recruit? In short, they can't. And allowing (unlimited and unregulated--see below) satellite camps would expand the already enormous scope of recruiting and the NCAA's challenges to police it.
Last, the ban does seem reactive and un-nuanced. For example, why not allow camps but regulate them? Examples of options:
- Limit the # of camps that a school can host annually.
- Place regional limits on camps.
- Allow coaches from other schools to attend a camp on another schools' campus. (Note: the current ban only permits camps on one's own campus. This, for example, prevents the coaches of Eastern Michigan to attend a camp on the Michigan campus to scout the lesser talented recruits who won't earn a Michigan offer.)
|22 weeks 2 days ago||Re the 2016 D, specifically pass rush||
I have no doubt that Michigan's secondary is going to be one of the best in the country. And I know that you added Gary but how good do you expect your pass rush to be (e.g., top 10, top 25, etc.)?
|24 weeks 1 day ago||Who me?||
Just keepin' it real y'all. (Some of you mid-westerners are actually agreeing with me.)
|24 weeks 1 day ago||The relevant issue is taking teammates||
and friends (aka package deals).
If you deny that signing Metellus and Gil had any relevant connection to signing DBJ (contrary to DBJ's own words), that's fine.
|24 weeks 1 day ago||Here's my claim:||
Taking DBJ's 2 Falanagn teammates helped with DJB. Here's what DBJ said about committing to Michigan and joining his 2 high school teammates:
"That's going to play a huge role for me, having my high school buddies," Bush said. "Getting able to play another four years with them, I think that's an opportunity you had to still, I took advantage of it." (sic)
FSU simply was not willing to take those 2 guys.
|24 weeks 1 day ago||DJB is a solid ILB||
and the fact that he's an EE makes him more valuable, esp. considering that ILB is probably the weakest spot on your D going into the 2016 season. He's got great read/react instincts, which is the most important thing in an ILB. IMO his (smaller) size is in no way a con based on the recent trend of smaller, faster, more athletic ILBs (like Telvin Smith, etc.) having success in the NFL.
Now, re the following:
FSU didn't put on the full-court press (and ended up signing a better ILB in 2016). And one of the main reasons that FSU didn't put on the full-court press with DBJ is that, unlike FSU, Michigan was willing to sign 2 or DBJ's high school (Flanagan) teammates to get DBJ (who as it turns out are 2 of the 3 lowest ranked recruits in Michigan's 2016 class).
|24 weeks 2 days ago||Agree re the last point that||
Southern schools have no need to host satellite camps b/c they can host camps on their own campus. (And since we're being frank: if Michigan were in the cradle of talent, they'd be against the current unlimited form of satellite camps. I'm pretty sure this makes the value of the current model of satellite camps relative, not absolute as it is promoted by some.)
Re the recruiting calendar, I'm on record saying that blue chips don't attend satellite camps (unless their coach tells them that they have to show up that day) b/c they already have dozens of offers and don't need to prove how talented they are. (And let's be frank again: nobody wants every single head coach hosting a camp at a particular school, e.g., IMG, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.) where every player on the school's team is required/expected to participate in the visiting coaches' camps.) Blue chips have other higher profile camps to attend to compete with the top talent in the region (or country).
Re the ROI, yes Michigan has more $$$ than God. (BTW the figures you cited, i.e., $20K per player, are way off. Last year you spent $250K and got 0 blue chips; this year you're projected to spend $600K on camps--ROI per blue chip is TBD.) So it sounds like you might be suggesting that ROI is irrelevant (b/c $$$ is irrelevant), i.e.,
because Michigan (is in the 1% of CFB and) can afford an unlimited # of camps, unlimited model of sattelite camps is the best for CFB.
And an unlimited model of camps should be permitted regarless of the implications, e.g., eliminating a recruiting calendar, dozens of camps being held at the same high school (where kids are expected/required to participate), etc.
Last, this question is for the crowd: do you believe that there should be any limits placed on satellite camps?
|24 weeks 2 days ago||I have noticed||
and, yes, this gives JH one more face-to-face contact with them. I suppose it's TBD whether the ROI on the camps pay off with respect to signing blue chips. Again, I'll be paying attention to the # of blue-chips that pre-camps were not leaning towards Michigan that actually end up signing with Michigan on NSD. Then we'll be able to calculate the ROI on the roughly $600K that the Michigan athletics department projects to spend for satellite camps in 2016. (Again, we do know that last year Michigan's camps yielded 0 blue chips.)
Note, however, that the ROI issue doesn't address the broader implications for CFB of changing the recruiting calendar, etc. It should also be noted that all of the soft factors (e.g., establishing relationships with local coaches, etc.) can be achieved without camps, changing the recruiting calendar, etc.
What are your thoughts on the current recruiting model that permits unlimited satellite camps? For example, do you think it should be modified in any way, etc.?
|24 weeks 3 days ago||I replied to your post above||
Re your final question here, "what would suffice for evidence that camps have value for Michigan?" Again, in order to win the B1G and compete in the playoff (and win a championship) Michigan needs difference makers at every position. If a camp yields such a (more than 1, probably) difference maker, then the ROI on Michigan's camps probably have positive value. (Note: I do know that the total cost of the Summer Swarm tour, which was smaller than this year's tour, was $240,000. If Michigan gets 1 difference maker at the cost of $240,000, that's probably not a good value.)
I do undersand, however, why you might think that this might seem reductive (reducting the value of camps to difference makers on the field) because there are other potential longer-term recruiting benefits to camps. But, again, Michigan already has recruiting analysts at every corner of the country, whose only job is to interact with local coaches and identify players that have Michigan-level talent. So, the only value that camps have that is indisputable is their marketing/branding value.
Also, as I said in my last longer reply to Seth, it's worthwhile to reflect on the broader implications on college football (and look past the potential benefits of one's own team) that results from eliminating (or significantly modifying) the recruiting calendar, esp. when the only guaranteed benefit is marketing/branding.
It seems that the most benefit from satellite camps is for smaller schools who might identify some under-the-radar kid who doesn't have an offer from a G5 or P5 program. I think there's a recruiting model that the NCAA can implement that preserves this function. Per their press release, the NCAA will review the current recruiting model this fall and may make changes to it.
|24 weeks 3 days ago||Didn't mean to ignore you||
Just thought that most of what you said fell under one that toed a line that others had mentioned (camps provide soft, long-term benefits beyond loading the roster with blue chips) and that I already responded to, i.e., I already said that JH intends camps to produce long-term benefits, etc. But with the sheer size of Harbaugh's non-coaching staff (probably 2nd in size only to Saban's), Michigan already has recruiting analysts in every corner of the country who have contacts with more HS coaches than any program. And long-term benefits require keeping JH on staff; otherwise, typically new HCs hire all new assistants, etc. So the only guaranteed potential benefit to the camps are to the current Michigan program under HC JH.
Aas you note, some blue chip players will be at these camps. And the camp will indeed give JH 1 extra face-to-face interaction with them. We'll know how much value this 1 additional contact has after 2017 NSD, when we'll be able to calculate a rate of blue chips who were not leaning towards Michigan or were ambivilant but ended up signing with Michigan. (Last year Summer Swarm yielded 0 blue chips, regardless of leaning.)
Like you I see the camp tour less as a means of signing the best players in the country and more as a marketing/branding opportunity. The catch, however, is that Michigan is already a national brand.
|24 weeks 4 days ago||well, I don't think that the onus is on me||
I'm objecting that camps have value. The onus is on he who believes that camps have value. (Just like the onus isn't on the athiest to show that God doesn't exist, it's on the theist who believes he does.) That said, I'll repeat the reason/objection I've already given and then give another broader reason against the *current* version of satellite camps. The first argument is stronger, the second is weaker.
First, again, blue chips (4*-5* recruits) win championships. Michigan is an elite program whose goal is winning championships. The only teams who have won a national championship since the BCS era are teams who had >50% blue chip players in its roster. And the best teams (e.g., Alabama, Ohio St) recruit well above the 50% blue chip ratio; competing with such teams requires similar talent. The overwhelming majority of players who attend camps are non-blue chips (This is consistent with the exposure arguemnt that people like Leach, parents, et. al. were giving, i.e., camps should be permitted because it gives the less talented guys, from remote areas, etc., exposure that they deserve.) Therefore, it's in a team's best interest to spend its time focused on recruiting blue chips, not trying to find diamonds in the rough at camps. Sure, some <=3* guys discovered at camps will become blue chips by NSD. But only some of them will sign with Michigan.
The second, more general reason for doubting the value of the current version of satellite camps permitted by the NCAA is that it permits year round recruiting, which eliminates the NCAA's recruiting calendar. That is, head coaches can now have year-round face-to-face, off-campus contact with recruiting targets. Harbaugh is holding all of his camps during the Quiet Period of the NCAA Recruiting calendar. Here’s what the NCAA guidance says re the Quiet Period:
Camps involve face-to-face contact that is not on the coach’s college campus. So strictly speaking (per the current NCAA Recruiting Calendar) camps involve a recruiting violation, which no one is talking about. And with the lifting of the satellite ban, coaches can recruit year-round just like NFL coaches, who basically have no restrictions on how they can spend their time. The NCAA (and everyone) should think about the implications that camps have on the Recruiting Calendar and college football itself, which is turning into a semi-pro league. Some might not have any problem with this, others will. Some like to maintain a distinction between college and pro football, some might not.
|24 weeks 5 days ago||Sounds like you're interested in telling me what I am and||
What's true. I came here because I thought folks here were a good source of info. You found one guy from the class of 2002 and consider the discussion re the value of satellite camps over.... And we didnt even scratch the surface of satellite camps.
|24 weeks 5 days ago||every kid who OVs FSU||
gets a crab legs dinner
|24 weeks 5 days ago||FSU did have some 3* kids on its 2013 championship team but||
they were all known by the recruiting outlets (around 2010).
|24 weeks 5 days ago||So||
this kid was unknown until he was discovered at a satellite camp (before 2002, when he graduated from high school)?
Breaston lettered three times in football at Woodland Hills High School, where he led the team to a 14-1 record and to a berth in the Pennsylvania 4-A state championship game. He helped Woodland Hills win the WPIAL Class AAAA title, gaining 219 yards on 15 carries during a 41-6 victory. The Gatorade Pennsylvania Player of the Year in 2001, Breaston was rated the third-best skill athlete and was named Northeast Offensive Player of the Year by Super Prep. He received a four-star rating and was ranked as the nation's eighth-best "athlete" by Rivals100.com.
|24 weeks 6 days ago||You need blue chips to win||
You need blue chips to win not diamonds in the rough.
Can you give me a name of a player who was discovered at a satellite camp who became a difference maker in A2?
Your coaches can use the info you mentioned to negatively recruit a kid vs the SEC but that'd be misinformation.
|24 weeks 6 days ago||what does that mean?||
does MGoBlog ban people hastily? I really like Brian and Ace's work.
Maybe you mean that the fan/poster mob will gang up on me. I've been a member/posting here for years. Haven't had any problems. (And don't see what I've posted here should cause problems)
|24 weeks 6 days ago||I think this ^^^ is closer to the real value of the camps||
it's like Jimmy is starting a long-term (4+ years) plan to establish relationship with the really young unknown kids. If Jimmy leaves, he'll need to promote from within and retain as much staff as possible for this plan to have a real lasting effect.
"keeps the Michigan name in headlines during the off season."
doesn't win championships. I know that good press is always good, but Michigan is an elite football program and therefore Harbaugh's ultimate goal--what he's paid for--is to win championships. Period.
|24 weeks 6 days ago||Wow||
Just trying to make sure there's no ambiguity and we're not talking past each other.
Y'all are chugging the kool aid. LOL.
Okay, okay. I disagree (obviously). IMO the type of benefits that these camps *might* produce are very long-term (like >5 years from now) that result from establishing relationships with really young kids (middle-schoolers) and their coaches, etc.
BTW, different topic: just wanted to say that I think you exceed expectations again this year, e.g., the newest FPI has Michigan at #11 (see below), which I think under-values you. And if I were near Vegas, I'd drop some on you to win the conference (which I think you will) and even with it all (b/c of the good odds).
FPI 3.0: http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/teamratings
|24 weeks 6 days ago||Okay, so||
you think that some of these nuggets who are discovered at one of these satellite camps will be able to be difference makers in games vs. teams like Ohio St, Alabama, FSU, Clemson?
|24 weeks 6 days ago||I'll take that as a yes||
so you think that there will be players--who were undiscovered before the camp--that will be able contribute during a season (and championship game) where you win the championship against players on teams like Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson/FSU, etc.?
|24 weeks 6 days ago||Do you think that the satellite camps will help Michigan win a||
National Championship (in the next, say, 5 years)? Why/why not?
|28 weeks 2 days ago||Couple things re the NCAA's satellite camp ban||
|34 weeks 2 days ago||Think JP will play RB this year||
|35 weeks 6 hours ago||Comments & Question about Spring break at IMG||
Agree with "The IMG trip is unprecedented, I believe, for football players. "
So the newness here is (1) scope and, as noted in the post, (2) recruiting.
Re 1 footing the bill for airfare, lodging, food, incidentals for 100+ players is different than, say, 12 basketball players. But it's is just a difference of degree and it's not prohibited.
Re (2), since the spring break practice at IMG is during the NCAA's Quiet Period, which prohibits face-to-face contact with recruits *off-campus* and one of the practices is open to the public (recruits are part of the public), do you think there's any reason for concern re recruiting violations?
|36 weeks 3 days ago||Great mailbag||
Great questions. My 2 cents on the 1st question re dropping commits, etc. I know that Sweeny was a special case (committed under Hoke, etc.) but if a coaching staff S has any doubts about a kid (e.g., how he'll develop, etc.) that staff can't accept his commitment. If a staff accepts commitments and drops the kid before NSD, that staff will be negatively recruited very hard on the trail. (Note: I know that Saban does this to a few kids every year, and he can get away with it only b/c he's Saban.)
BTW, what do you guys think about Harbaugh's move away from the no-visit-post-commit policy? I ask b/c, e.g., Clemson does the no-visit-post-commit and it seems to be working well, esp. when recruiting seems to be trending toward more of a circus every year.
|37 weeks 1 day ago||Does anyone know what sort of restrictions (if any) apply to the||
IMG spring break practice?
Per the NCAA recruiting calendar, the practice will be during the Quiet Period, when off-campus contact (or viewing) is prevented. Hmmm. I wonder if there's a loophole, e.g,. kids/parents initiate contact, etc. Not sure.
Also wonder if non staff/players can participate (think: Rick Flair and Tom Brady).
|37 weeks 1 day ago||Not sure||
I was really thinking of the out of state commits like Wade and Pryor (2 of their 3 highest rated commits).
One caveat with these 2 guys, however, is that 2017 is loaded with elite DBs, so this makes it easier for Meyer to sign them.
|37 weeks 1 day ago||All of the IMG players (and Slaton) will be recruited by||
every other elite national program in the country (until NSD). That said, IMO you're probably in better position to land at least one of Ruiz and Slaton than anyone else right now. So I think you get at least one of them.
And I agree with the notes in this piece re Kaindoh, I think it's fair to say that you're in his top 5 given he's from Maryland and therefore probably playing in B1G country.
|37 weeks 1 day ago||Re Meyer locking up talent early||
Every other elite national program will recruit the elite players committed to Ohio St until NSD 2017, esp. the out of state commits. Holding on to these commits won't be easy.
|37 weeks 2 days ago||Hello Derwin James...who, this DB throwing an SEC RT||
like a rag doll?
Note: I also realize that Michigan fans love playing the Gators.